4Freedom said;
I do have an argument to stand on. It looks like you failed to read my analogy of the fast food restaurants.
I read it and dismissed it out of hand as irrelevant. CCW holders are not armed guards. If you have a CCW and think that you have some duty to protect society then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon. A criminal has no way of knowing if a CCW holder is present or not and if a CCW holder is present, there is no guarantee that he/she would act to foil the crime. Add that to the fact that criminals don't think logically and you can see why it's totally immaterial to this discussion. Only a small, select class of professional criminals think logically like we do. And unless you are in the jewelry, precious metals or deal in large (as in millions of dollars) amounts of cash your chances of meeting one in a professional capacity are almost nil.
You are comparing apples and oranges, comparing Wisconsin to Tennessee.
Why is that? Both are states, both have about the same population. Could it be that there are other factors besides gun laws that contribute to the crime rate, like I've been saying all along? Things like culture, social/economic factors, the number of males between 14 and 28? Of course. Gun laws have a negligible effect on crime.
What we need to compare is Tennessee to Tennessee. Does having larger amount of CCW permit holders result in less crime in Tennessee as opposed to less CCW permit holders in Tennessee? I agree the co-factors must be taken into consideration.
When did Tennessee pass shall issue concealed carry? The only way to tell if it made a difference would be top look at the crime rates before and after CCW.
Despite these well known facts, that does not mean that arming citizens in these areas will not affect the crime rate. These criminals pray on the weak, not the strong. A purse snatcher will go beat up some old lady and run with her purse, rather than pick a fight with a 300lb bodybuilder to get his wallet.
Do you really believe that only the bad guys have guns in the bad neighborhoods? The truth is that there are plenty of guns in areas with high crime rates and often law abiding citizens carry without the benefit of a permit because they feel they must. Yet the crime rates there aren't affected. Why do you think that is?
I asked you earlier, tell me how many police stations or other facilities with high numbered of armed personnel have been robbed at gunpoint compared with civilian establishments where people are known to be unarmed.
Wait a minute, your entire argument is based on the fact that crime drops because of CCW holders. So how come
civilian establishments are still robbed in CCW states? The criminals know that they have a chance of running into an armed citizen. Now you are telling me that CCW deters crime, but you aren't telling me how.
loneviking said;
As for crime, Jeff, guns do make a difference. I guess the statistics prove that they don't make ALL the difference, but every state that has passed 'shall issue' CCW has seen violent crime drop.
The thing is, crime dropped everywhere during that time period. Criminologists attributed the drop in the crime rate due to society growing up with a corresponding drop in the number of males between 14 and 28. Crime rates dropped in the states that didn't have shall issue CCW at the same time. Explain that......
Why? I'm guessing (and also from talking to local LEO's) that the BG's know that it's more dangerous to start something in Carson/Douglas where there's a large group of shooters that practice on a regular basis, and where it's going to be harder to disappear into a neighborhood than in a larger city.
Jeff, you're a cop, what are your thoughts?
I am retired now, but I think the bad guys just don't have any interest in that area. They don't venture out of their own neighborhoods and commit crimes very often. If there was a reason for them to go there, such as control of the drug trade there, they would be there regardless of the number of shooters in the community.
rainbowbob said;
I live in a city (Seattle) that until recently was considered one of the "most livable" cities in the country. I have lived in this middle-class neighborhood for more than 50 years. As in most cities in America today, gangs have infiltrated in and around EVERY neighborhood.
"Going to the places where the criminals hang out" happens when we walk out our doors, go to the grocery store, drive to work, etc.
Bob, you answered your own question when you said this:
How did this neighborhood become "turf"? Local politicians (the same ones who think Seattle should be a "gun-free" zone) have decided that urban density is a desirable goal and have tweaked the development rules to change traditionally single-family neighborhoods to allow for multi-use high-rise apartments.
Many folks who can't afford to own expensive real estate are renters in these buildings. This includes my mother-in-law - and it apparently includes the crack dealers and their customers.
Changes in the demographics brought the criminal element to you. No neighborhood was ever planned to be a high crime area, something happened to make it one. Changes in the demographics, changes in zoning and other government interference create the high crime areas.
Before anybody glibly suggests we move - let me point out that isn't an option for most people. Economics, work, family, etc keep us in our communities. Furthermore, I'm not willing to cede my neighborhood - the place I grew up - the place my Mother lives - to the thugs.
I commend you for not wanting to cede control of the neighborhood to the criminal element. Good luck to you. But what happened is the criminal element came to you. I'm sure there are many neighborhoods in Seattle that aren't that way.
I have also spent a good deal of time in a very rural area of North Idaho. Guess what? They have meth users and dealers there too.
There is crime everywhere. Crime pays. But the criminals still pretty much keep to their own neighborhoods, for some reason these neighborhoods usually spread out around public housing. But you aren't going to find them selling crack on the corner in the high rent district.