Good Samaratan, CCW, takes out Bad Guy FL

[MisterMike]

It's interesting to see the diversity of opinions regarding this story. I'd note that I'm a little cautious about expressing an ultimate opinion, since none of us was there and the news reports offer scant information. Often the news reporters get the facts wrong, way wrong.

What I would say, though, is this: Without regard to how it will play in the press or to what some Monday morning quarterback will say in the safety of his own easy chair, ultimately you should do what you think is right at that moment in time, focusing on the question of whether the BG poses an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death to you or others.

Having not been there, I can't say what I would have done. But I do know this: once a perp has pulled a gun, it is utterly unpredictable what he will do next. He may get jumpy and run away. He may run once he's gotten whatever he's demanding, leaving behind only shocked bystanders. He may be startled by a dropped object and start shooting. He may pop the clerk with a round through the head, just because he feels like it. He may turn and shoot any man, woman or child in the store because he thinks it will create confusion and cover for his escape. Or he may kill you, your wife, or your kid, because he's a screwed-up psychopath, high on meth.

Make no mistake. It is totally and utterly unpredictable. But there is no doubt that some jerk waving a pistol at a burger joint poses an imminent threat to the lives of everyone there.

 

[tydephan]

As crazy as this may sound, I expect the worst out of a criminal, especially one pointing a weapon at someone.

As pointed out by Mike Sr., there are way too many unknowns.

As much as we hate to do so, let's play the "What if" game for a brief moment:

1.) What if the robber had a history of shooting compliant victims? If a report is released this afternoon that says the man has been linked to 4 other robberies that resulted in deaths, now does the samaritan become a hero?
2.) What if there was no one else in the facility (other than employees), thus potentially singling out this samaritan next for a robbery?
3.) What if you were the clerk, staring down the barrel of a gun? Would you still hope a CCW holder does nothing?

I'll withhold judgement on the man until more is known, if ever.

Honestly? I would have expected most High-Roaders to do the same.

 

[gym]

This just shows that many get their licenses because they can, and not to protect anyone other than in the "perfect", non exhistant situation. It's never like you think it's going to be, there is a very small amount of time, not enough to start thinking about who's going to pay for what, or how many people in this state or that one, did one thing or another. It's over by then. This is stuff that most of us will never know. Those who do already do. There is no way to know which way an armed gunman will turn and leave, or fire, or kill somone just because he felt like it. We see people every day, under preassure, the last three weeks there were 2 incidents of people killing their entire familys here in FL, kids and all. One was a music teacher, I forget who the other was, So this is not something that can be logically figured out. It's something that you should prepare for and hope you never have to participate in. But to say you wouldn't or shouldn't, isn't really relavant, because in a high stress situation, anything is possible. and hopefully everyone will do the right thing for themselves and others. Whatever that is they will have to live with it.

 

[carnaby]

Interesting:

An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.

The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''

Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Not everyone should act like they are
starring in Death Wish or Magnum Force.
(Remember that old series of movies?)

A concealed weapons permit doesn't make us LE.

All depends on the situation, but as just reported...
it looks like good guy wanted to be 'hero guy' and will now pay the price
for that decision.

I don't know what I'd do and is one of the reasons
I don't go get my carry permit in North Carolina.
Not sure if I wouldn't act like I'm 'special' now and
seek to be a hero too.

Not saying this guy was right or wrong, just saying.

 

[windsor311]

I think I will leave the decision as to whether or not the armed citizen did the "right thing". He made the decision to act and if that decision costs him something such as pain and suffering, he has to pay it and not us who sit here on our computers judging him......a little too early IMO.
ROCKWELL, I'm not sure anyone on this forum or those talked about in it can do anything right in your eyes. I'm not picking an arguement with you but from reading some of your posts, you seem negative or at least your messages are unless ofcourse it's somebody agreeing with you.
What gives? Help me understand your positions by thoughtfull dialog. I apologize if i've got you wrong. I just want to understand all sides better. Would you care to share your background with me and i will do the same?

Like I said, not wanting to pick a fight here, just meaningfull dialog.

 

[Gryffydd]

In situations like this, there are two choices. To act or to not act. The worst thing you can do is to try and walk a path somewhere between those two choices. Either you sit on your hands and do nothing or you shoot them with no warning--in the back if needs be. If you live in a state where this isn't legal, then you're better off doing nothing. Giving someone who's crazy enough to threaten lives with a deadly weapon in exchange for a few bucks the choice of what happens next is practically suicide. You've said, "OK, criminal-with-a-gun, I'm giving YOU the choice of what happens next."

 

[rainbowbob]

...not going to the places where the criminals hang out will keep you out of trouble.

Not trying to pick your posts apart, Jeff - but this seems to be a recurring theme that just doesn't add up anymore for most folks.

I live in a city (Seattle) that until recently was considered one of the "most livable" cities in the country. I have lived in this middle-class neighborhood for more than 50 years. As in most cities in America today, gangs have infiltrated in and around EVERY neighborhood.

"Going to the places where the criminals hang out" happens when we walk out our doors, go to the grocery store, drive to work, etc.

An 87-year-old relative was violently assaulted and robbed in my neighborhood at the restaurant she has frequented every Sunday after church for the last 40 years.

An encroaching crack dealer was recently shot to death within earshot of my house for selling on the wrong turf.

How did this neighborhood become "turf"? Local politicians (the same ones who think Seattle should be a "gun-free" zone) have decided that urban density is a desirable goal and have tweaked the development rules to change traditionally single-family neighborhoods to allow for multi-use high-rise apartments.

Many folks who can't afford to own expensive real estate are renters in these buildings. This includes my mother-in-law - and it apparently includes the crack dealers and their customers.

Before anybody glibly suggests we move - let me point out that isn't an option for most people. Economics, work, family, etc keep us in our communities. Furthermore, I'm not willing to cede my neighborhood - the place I grew up - the place my Mother lives - to the thugs.

I have also spent a good deal of time in a very rural area of North Idaho. Guess what? They have meth users and dealers there too.

So where is this mythical place where the criminals don't hang out?

 

[Jeff White]

4Freedom said;

I do have an argument to stand on. It looks like you failed to read my analogy of the fast food restaurants.

I read it and dismissed it out of hand as irrelevant. CCW holders are not armed guards. If you have a CCW and think that you have some duty to protect society then you shouldn't be carrying a weapon. A criminal has no way of knowing if a CCW holder is present or not and if a CCW holder is present, there is no guarantee that he/she would act to foil the crime. Add that to the fact that criminals don't think logically and you can see why it's totally immaterial to this discussion. Only a small, select class of professional criminals think logically like we do. And unless you are in the jewelry, precious metals or deal in large (as in millions of dollars) amounts of cash your chances of meeting one in a professional capacity are almost nil.

You are comparing apples and oranges, comparing Wisconsin to Tennessee.

Why is that? Both are states, both have about the same population. Could it be that there are other factors besides gun laws that contribute to the crime rate, like I've been saying all along? Things like culture, social/economic factors, the number of males between 14 and 28? Of course. Gun laws have a negligible effect on crime.

What we need to compare is Tennessee to Tennessee. Does having larger amount of CCW permit holders result in less crime in Tennessee as opposed to less CCW permit holders in Tennessee? I agree the co-factors must be taken into consideration.

When did Tennessee pass shall issue concealed carry? The only way to tell if it made a difference would be top look at the crime rates before and after CCW.

Despite these well known facts, that does not mean that arming citizens in these areas will not affect the crime rate. These criminals pray on the weak, not the strong. A purse snatcher will go beat up some old lady and run with her purse, rather than pick a fight with a 300lb bodybuilder to get his wallet.

Do you really believe that only the bad guys have guns in the bad neighborhoods? The truth is that there are plenty of guns in areas with high crime rates and often law abiding citizens carry without the benefit of a permit because they feel they must. Yet the crime rates there aren't affected. Why do you think that is?

I asked you earlier, tell me how many police stations or other facilities with high numbered of armed personnel have been robbed at gunpoint compared with civilian establishments where people are known to be unarmed.

Wait a minute, your entire argument is based on the fact that crime drops because of CCW holders. So how come civilian establishments are still robbed in CCW states? The criminals know that they have a chance of running into an armed citizen. Now you are telling me that CCW deters crime, but you aren't telling me how.

loneviking said;

As for crime, Jeff, guns do make a difference. I guess the statistics prove that they don't make ALL the difference, but every state that has passed 'shall issue' CCW has seen violent crime drop.

The thing is, crime dropped everywhere during that time period. Criminologists attributed the drop in the crime rate due to society growing up with a corresponding drop in the number of males between 14 and 28. Crime rates dropped in the states that didn't have shall issue CCW at the same time. Explain that......

Why? I'm guessing (and also from talking to local LEO's) that the BG's know that it's more dangerous to start something in Carson/Douglas where there's a large group of shooters that practice on a regular basis, and where it's going to be harder to disappear into a neighborhood than in a larger city.

Jeff, you're a cop, what are your thoughts?

I am retired now, but I think the bad guys just don't have any interest in that area. They don't venture out of their own neighborhoods and commit crimes very often. If there was a reason for them to go there, such as control of the drug trade there, they would be there regardless of the number of shooters in the community.

rainbowbob said;

I live in a city (Seattle) that until recently was considered one of the "most livable" cities in the country. I have lived in this middle-class neighborhood for more than 50 years. As in most cities in America today, gangs have infiltrated in and around EVERY neighborhood.

"Going to the places where the criminals hang out" happens when we walk out our doors, go to the grocery store, drive to work, etc.

Bob, you answered your own question when you said this:

How did this neighborhood become "turf"? Local politicians (the same ones who think Seattle should be a "gun-free" zone) have decided that urban density is a desirable goal and have tweaked the development rules to change traditionally single-family neighborhoods to allow for multi-use high-rise apartments.

Many folks who can't afford to own expensive real estate are renters in these buildings. This includes my mother-in-law - and it apparently includes the crack dealers and their customers.

Changes in the demographics brought the criminal element to you. No neighborhood was ever planned to be a high crime area, something happened to make it one. Changes in the demographics, changes in zoning and other government interference create the high crime areas.

Before anybody glibly suggests we move - let me point out that isn't an option for most people. Economics, work, family, etc keep us in our communities. Furthermore, I'm not willing to cede my neighborhood - the place I grew up - the place my Mother lives - to the thugs.

I commend you for not wanting to cede control of the neighborhood to the criminal element. Good luck to you. But what happened is the criminal element came to you. I'm sure there are many neighborhoods in Seattle that aren't that way.

I have also spent a good deal of time in a very rural area of North Idaho. Guess what? They have meth users and dealers there too.

There is crime everywhere. Crime pays. But the criminals still pretty much keep to their own neighborhoods, for some reason these neighborhoods usually spread out around public housing. But you aren't going to find them selling crack on the corner in the high rent district.

 

[camslam]

A couple of observations:

1. It is absolutely, utterly, pointless to argue with some people/moderators here on THR. Save your time, energy, and efforts.

2. Apparently, 5 pages in we still do not know EXACTLY how this went down. But all the Monday morning quarterbacking is as priceless as ever. Great job High Roader's.

3. Every single situation is different and it is tough to know what will happen, but once again we have the chorus of "boo birds" that make it clear to all of us that it is not worth it to confront criminals. Their opinion is just fine, but I will say what I have said before in regards to peoples decisions regarding taking action in this type of situation -

--- That is fine if you are part of the "don't do anything", "I'll be a great witness", or "it isn't worth the medical costs, heartache, etc..." crowds; but if you or one of your loved ones is ever in a situation where they are threatened with POTENTIALLY LETHAL FORCE, and there is a concealed carry permit holder that is armed, but decides your wife, children, father, mother, siblings, friends, or some other innocents life isn't worth defending, then you damn sure better be fine with them letting something happen to those around them, because it wasn't worth it to confront the criminal. Next time it may be someone YOU CARE ABOUT, that is shot, killed, raped, assaulted, or robbed, and someone may stand by idle that could have done something about it.

If you are fine with that, then I have no problem with you. If you aren't fine with that, maybe some additional thought would be appropriate.

Just my opinion, which along with a subway token, will get you onto the subway.

 

[JWJacobVT]

Remember the Alamo.
Remember Luby's? 1991 Kileen, TX
Remember Long Island Railroad? 1993

If you are going to carry, than you need to react. Period. If you have decided not to react(run out the back door), STOP carrying.

 

[rainbowbob]

I'm sure there are many neighborhoods in Seattle that aren't that way.

Jeff, I can tell you unequivocally there are not. Even the most expensive multi-million dollar gated community is directly adjacent to what has become the worst area.

But the criminals still pretty much keep to their own neighborhoods...you aren't going to find them selling crack on the corner in the high rent district.

This may have been true in the past - but it is simply no longer the case here - and I suspect it doesn't apply in most other US cities today.

My neighborhood (at least until recently) is made up of homes valued in the $400-800 thousand range. Into that mix has come multi-use rentals filled with people who cannot afford homes in that range. I don't have a problem with that in theory - healthy communities should include a mix of socio-economic levels. In practice, it means that crack is being sold on a corner that may be two blocks from the half million dollar plus homes.

You say I answered my own question, i.e., "Where is this mythical place where the criminals don't hang out?"

I would say I haven't answered it - and neither have you. I really don't expect an answer - because I believe there no longer is such a place.

And if there no longer is such a place - the once-sensible advice to stay away from places where criminals hang out becomes out-dated and irrelevant.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

from the "readers comments"

....Oh, nevermind I guess not. An antiquated rule from the 18th century that has done NOTHING (read the stats) to preserve human life is more important to you than keeping people out of harm's way.

When you've gone to as many children's funerals as I have because every fruitcake gets to carry a weapon in this country, you'll change your tune.

IMBECILE

Well, at least he signed it...

 

[scottgun]

If you are going to carry, than you need to react. Period. If you have decided not to react(run out the back door), STOP carrying.

I will decide when and if I will act or react And I will continue to carry.

This story has brought all the keyboard warriors. I wouldn't act unless I am directly threated, that is why I got my ccw, not to play hero-cop saviour of societal ills.

 

[Rockwell1]

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing

So, it now appears that Sam was dumb enough to start an argument with what most people here are characterizing as a violent, dangerous and unpredictible felon. While said felon is commiting an armed robbery! Really not lookin' like Sam's best work

 

[camslam]

So, it now appears that Sam was dumb enough to start an argument with what most people here are characterizing as a violent, dangerous and unpredictible felon. While said felon is commiting an armed robbery! Really not lookin' like Sam's best work.

Might I make a humble suggestion? Perhaps you should wait until the FACTS actually come out, because with the piss poor reporting that takes place on a daily basis in this country, you probably are jumping to some conclusions.

What do you think?

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

sounds good to me

 

[Rockwell1]

What do you think?

I think

It is absolutely, utterly, pointless to argue with some people/moderators here on THR

but if you or one of your loved ones is ever in a situation where they are threatened with POTENTIALLY LETHAL FORCE, and there is a concealed carry permit holder that is armed, but decides your wife, children, father, mother, siblings, friends, or some other innocents life isn't worth defending, then you damn sure better be fine with them letting something happen to those around them,

I just want them to duck and give my wife a clear field of fire

 

[moharrow]

When the majority of people are running away from danger, police, firefighters and Emergency Medical Service workers run towards danger.

That is their job, not mine.

It's just not worth the potential hassle in my estimation.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Edmond Burk

 

[Rockwell1]

A handgun is designed for one purpose, defensive weaponry. It isn’t offensive weaponry and it’s not designed to allow one to enforce laws. It is designed to help you to defend life and property.

A lot of people (or the same people over and over again) in this thread are positing that the mere possession of a handgun and a permit somehow imputes to me an obligation to intervene in any criminal action that occurs in my presence. What Jeff White calls “ A duty to respond” (to clarify JW never said that CCW’rs had such a duty he merely applied the term). Because I disagree both my morals and my courage have been called into question during this discussion.

As Jeff pointed out Police have an obligation and a duty to respond but that duty is balanced by a support system that will assist should the Officer is injured in the line of duty. That support system isn’t there for CCW’rs.

Sam may or may not have saved anyone in that Burger King; he certainly saddled his family with a lot of needless debt. Save your arguments for your wife and family, explain it to them while you’re moving because your home was foreclosed on. Leave a letter for your wife to read when she has to work double shifts trying to support the family you left behind because you started an argument with an armed robber.

I have a duty to my family, I am the primary earner in my household and I have a job that is 95% typing. One bullet in the wrist and I’m out of work permanently (unless I want to train for a whole new career at the age of 47). Where are all the grateful patrons of Burger King going to be then? It may sound harsh or cold but my primary responsibility is to my family. It’s not my job to step in and stop a crime. I t most certainly isn’t my job to try to apprehend an armed robber.

If I do nothing the guy may or may not shoot, I don’t know and you don’t either. But I damn sure promise you that if I start shooting and I don’t drop him dead with the very first shot he is going to start shooting and someone is going to get hurt bad. I really can’t come up with a good conclusion except to say, again, that as I assess the risk, the outcome most likely to get the robber out the door with no injuries is for me to stay out of it And that is very likely what I’d do.

 

[yokel]

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Edmond Burke

Take an old, tired cliché and search for a new way to use it in your next speech . It will be like ... like ... a breath of fresh air to your audience . ...

The truth of the matter is that private gun ownership is essentially about a hobby, avocation, and pastime as far as i'm concerned instead of some misguided notion of being there to help the oppressed and abused in their hour of need.

 

[rogerjames]

I just want to interject a side note to rogerjames regarding something he posted:
Quote:
As I am usually dressed in medical "scrubs", I would assume I appear "non-threatening" in most environments,
You are correct. Non-threatening. However, you are a huge target, because you are seen as having money, drugs, or at the least insulin syringes and a car. You are also seen as being a person opposed to violence and one who would not put up a fight, much less one who would carry a gun.

You are not a target because you appear threatening. You become a target when the criminal actor believes you have something he wants and you are in an environment or situation where he can take it with little risk to himself.

PM me if you like.

Xavier,
thanks for making that point. In my head I know this... I just didn't include it in my arguement. I have a nice car that I drive on the weekends, but I drive my 2001 Hyundai Elantra with 140,000 miles for work. I am not wealthy by any means, but since I have to frequently travel into seedy areas, I want to look as inconspicuous as possible. I am also 5'7" 190 lbs, bald, with a beard and goatee. Not exactly threatening looking, but probably not the typical "easy looking" target either.

The one thing that does bother me is that I have to leave my gun in the car, can't carry on my person because of company rules.

 

[user3214]

The truth of the matter is that private gun ownership is essentially about a hobby, avocation, and pastime as far as i'm concerned instead of some misguided notion of being there to help the oppressed and abused in their hour of need.

So you carry a firearm as a hobby?

 

[61chalk]

This is my second post on this thread, I see some have posted alot, an thats ok, I would just like those of you who disagree with what the Samaritian did, who keep posting how wrong you
think he was.....I will simply ask that you go back an read post # 102.....an then.....think for a little while...or better....a long while. Thank You.

 

[user3214]

I am sure if Sam didn't get hurt everyone would be praising him.

But since he got hurt, let the bashing begin.