Got another idea for a new BP gun

[TTv2]

We'll see how this goes.

I got to thinking about muzzleloaders that aren't currently made, like if you went online to buy something specific it's just not available. We've got single shot pistols, revolvers, muskets, musketoons, carbines, rifles, revolving rifles, double barrel shotguns, cannons... but what isn't available and apparently wasn't back in the day either was the revolving shotgun.

The Colt revolving shotguns didn't get much production and thus never found success, but that doesn't mean the concept of a revolving shotgun was flawed as we saw later in the 20th Century a return with the Manville and eventually the Striker (which got classified as a destructive device and is now locked behind a tax stamp) and finally this century with Rossi making a rifle version of the Taurus Judge in the Circuit Judge.

The benefits of a modern black powder revolver shotgun are obvious: they offer a historical firearm that is very hard for people to get today and for those who want something cool without having to do extra paperwork a short barrel version could be offered that doesn't get tied up with the NFA.

My idea is a double action, swing out cylinder with quick change ability for faster reloads (or to switch from shot to slugs in the field) with the Circuit Judge style blast shields and uses 209 primers. Throw in a detachable buttstock model with a 10 inch barrel and people could have a larger bore version of the new Taurus Home Defender, but with a smoothbore.

So, really two versions: a traditional revolver shotgun and a modern revolver shotgun.

Who's interested? Who's not? and @hawg... shut up, don't say nuffin, not one word.

 

[troy fairweather]

Maybe a copy of an AA12.

I've had the idea in my head for years now on a build idea, traditional guys would probably freak out but sounds cool to me. Think about say a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle style, but make the stock from Woven carbon fiber tube, formed exactly like the wood version. May not be to hard using a hard foam form and building up carbon in Crucial areas and Vacuum cure in resin. For the barrel, which would be pretty easy I think. Get a green mountain blank and machine it down to carbon wrapped, already have a idea how to do it on the lathe. The octagon it, be cool to swamp it to. Obviously a carbon ram rod, and a lock with parts that can be made out of titanium.

A half stock hawken would be easier and pretty cool.

 

[TTv2]

Maybe a copy of an AA12.

I've had the idea in my head for years now on a build idea, traditional guys would probably freak out but sounds cool to me. Think about say a Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle style, but make the stock from Woven carbon fiber tube, formed exactly like the wood version. May not be to hard using a hard foam form and building up carbon in Crucial areas and Vacuum cure in resin. For the barrel, which would be pretty easy I think. Get a green mountain blank and machine it down to carbon wrapped, already have a idea how to do it on the lathe. The octagon it, be cool to swamp it to. Obviously a carbon ram rod, and a lock with parts that can be made out of titanium.

A half stock hawken would be easier and pretty cool.

I mean, I'm not looking for a super light build, so carbon fiber everything doesn't really excite me, but obviously a wood furniture version and a glass filled nylon stock version. For the modern version I'd have a cutout for spare cylinders, could probably get two in the stock so the gun would have 15 rounds total.

 

[troy fairweather]

I mean, I'm not looking for a super light build, so carbon fiber everything doesn't really excite me, but obviously a wood furniture version and a glass filled nylon stock version. For the modern version I'd have a cutout for spare cylinders, could probably get two in the stock so the gun would have 15 rounds total.

If not going the revolver route, one or two mag tubes in the butt stock would be cool to. On my gun idea a carbon barrel on a hawken or a Renegade would be sweet, I'm surprised no one has done it,

 

[4v50 Gary]

I like the idea TTv2 but with musket caps for ease of recapping. We can all be Clint Eastwood in the Pale Rider now.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Sounds like a lot of work for a very limited market, it's hard enough to make a living building traditional guns. I just don't see a viable market on this one. A small handful might get sold. Cost considerations come into play as well, how much is it gonna cost to build and to produce? Can the average guy afford one?

 

[armoredman]

If you are going to go this route, why not go all the way and make two versions of the Puckle Gun, one flintlock, one percussion lock - those might sell.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Sounds like a lot of work for a very limited market, it's hard enough to make a living building traditional guns. I just don't see a viable market on this one. A small handful might get sold. Cost considerations come into play as well, how much is it gonna cost to build and to produce? Can the average guy afford one?

I'm wrestling (in my mind) what modern line of revolvers to convert? The S&W is easy to remove the cylinder (if you remove that catch on the frame that prevents the cylinder from dropping once it is swung open. But S&W is expensive. Taurus lockwork is garbage inside. If Rossi has its original lockwork, that could be a good substitute. The old Ruger Security Six is a good candidate to (for 30 cal),

BTW, I did write Ruger years ago and ask that they develop a replacement cylinder to make one of their revolvers percussion fired ML.

 

[woodnbow]

We'll see how this goes.

I got to thinking about muzzleloaders that aren't currently made, like if you went online to buy something specific it's just not available. We've got single shot pistols, revolvers, muskets, musketoons, carbines, rifles, revolving rifles, double barrel shotguns, cannons... but what isn't available and apparently wasn't back in the day either was the revolving shotgun.

The Colt revolving shotguns didn't get much production and thus never found success, but that doesn't mean the concept of a revolving shotgun was flawed as we saw later in the 20th Century a return with the Manville and eventually the Striker (which got classified as a destructive device and is now locked behind a tax stamp) and finally this century with Rossi making a rifle version of the Taurus Judge in the Circuit Judge.

The benefits of a modern black powder revolver shotgun are obvious: they offer a historical firearm that is very hard for people to get today and for those who want something cool without having to do extra paperwork a short barrel version could be offered that doesn't get tied up with the NFA.

My idea is a double action, swing out cylinder with quick change ability for faster reloads (or to switch from shot to slugs in the field) with the Circuit Judge style blast shields and uses 209 primers. Throw in a detachable buttstock model with a 10 inch barrel and people could have a larger bore version of the new Taurus Home Defender, but with a smoothbore.

So, really two versions: a traditional revolver shotgun and a modern revolver shotgun.

Who's interested? Who's not? and @hawg... shut up, don't say nuffin, not one word.

I like it. However. The loads are going to have to be premade in some way. I tried long ago to make snake loads for an 1860 colt and they’re difficult to keep intact under carry and use conditions. I would think a supersized Remington style frame with a round shotgun barrel would be light enough for most people. Shotgun barrel isn’t really that heavy and the pressure generated by large bores is not really all that great. I wouldn’t bother with loading on the gun if you make provisions for quick change cylinders. Maybe like these?

 

[woodnbow]

I'm wrestling (in my mind) what modern line of revolvers to convert? The S&W is easy to remove the cylinder (if you remove that catch on the frame that prevents the cylinder from dropping once it is swung open. But S&W is expensive. Taurus lockwork is garbage inside. If Rossi has its original lockwork, that could be a good substitute. The old Ruger Security Six is a good candidate to (for 30 cal),

BTW, I did write Ruger years ago and ask that they develop a replacement cylinder to make one of their revolvers percussion fired ML.

The replacement cylinder is a good idea for target shooters, a 45 caliber cylinder of standard length would probably provide room for 20-25 grains behind a ball if it was bored for a 209 primer. With shotgun primers there’s no need to modify the firing pin or anything else. Just drop it in and fire away.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Ruger GP and SS series can be adopted as can the Redhawk. Too bad Ruger won't make a cylinder like the Sedgely Woodnbow shared.

Maybe we should ask Ruger (again)?

 

[AlexanderA]

Any revolving long gun is a bad idea, for the simple reason that the gap between the cylinder and the barrel cannot be perfectly sealed. Therefore, the support arm is going to be subject to powder burns and fragments. This is why the original revolving long guns didn't have much success.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Concur with AlexanderA. Should be strictly handgun & even the .357 Maximum had too much flame cutting. You need the cylinder to engage against the forcing cone (ala Mosin Nagant revolver) to do that.

 

[woodnbow]

Concur with AlexanderA. Should be strictly handgun & even the .357 Maximum had too much flame cutting. You need the cylinder to engage against the forcing cone (ala Mosin Nagant revolver) to do that.

Should have bought all the Maximums I could get my hands on back then.

 

[TTv2]

I like the idea TTv2 but with musket caps for ease of recapping. We can all be Clint Eastwood in the Pale Rider now.

Well, my idea doesn't have a way to load the chambers on the gun, it's meant to be loaded off gun, but really I'm just looking to see how much interest there is for a revolver muzzleloader shotgun.

 

[TTv2]

Sounds like a lot of work for a very limited market, it's hard enough to make a living building traditional guns. I just don't see a viable market on this one. A small handful might get sold. Cost considerations come into play as well, how much is it gonna cost to build and to produce? Can the average guy afford one?

I don't see why the cost would be much more than what the 1858 rifles cost. The swing out cylinder system would add to the cost, but wouldn't go above $900. Heck, if the swing out cylinder is dumped and we just make an shotgun out with the 1858 design then it'd be $750.

Compare that to the double barrel Pedersoli shotguns and the added capacity and reload speed of the revolver shotgun and the cost is a bargain.

 

[TTv2]

If you are going to go this route, why not go all the way and make two versions of the Puckle Gun, one flintlock, one percussion lock - those might sell.

A modern Puckle gun would cost 5 grand. I don't see those selling in greater numbers than a sub $900 revolver shotgun.

 

[TTv2]

I like it. However. The loads are going to have to be premade in some way. I tried long ago to make snake loads for an 1860 colt and they’re difficult to keep intact under carry and use conditions. I would think a supersized Remington style frame with a round shotgun barrel would be light enough for most people. Shotgun barrel isn’t really that heavy and the pressure generated by large bores is not really all that great. I wouldn’t bother with loading on the gun if you make provisions for quick change cylinders. Maybe like these?View attachment 1175692View attachment 1175693

I thought about this too and my idea was based on powder, cushion, shot, card to hold it all in, so to keep it a muzzeloader how about a cartridge that doesn't contain a primer like the Burnside carbine?

With that the swing out cylinder could act like an ejector, but the brass would eject out the front and the primers out the rear. Drop in the new cases, stick primers in the back, slap it back in and back to blasting.

 

[woodnbow]

I thought about this too and my idea was based on powder, cushion, shot, card to hold it all in, so to keep it a muzzeloader how about a cartridge that doesn't contain a primer like the Burnside carbine?

With that the swing out cylinder could act like an ejector, but the brass would eject out the front and the primers out the rear. Drop in the new cases, stick primers in the back, slap it back in and back to blasting.

That could work although I was thinking paper cartridges when I wrote that. A rice paper disc at the rear would ensure ignition. They’d need to be made a couple thousands oversized so that when loaded friction would overcome recoil.

 

[4v50 Gary]

On removable cap 'n ball cylinders for one of their DA/SA swing out cylinder revolvers Ruger wrote back:

Thank you for contacting Ruger Customer Service.
Your Customer Service Issue # is 10415171

Good afternoon Gary, We will pass along your request to our sales and marketing department for future consideration.

Ruger Customer Service

 

[woodnbow]

On removable cap 'n ball cylinders for one of their DA/SA swing out cylinder revolvers Ruger wrote back:

So they’re saying it’s possible!

 

[Lefty38-55]

We'll see how this goes.

I got to thinking about muzzleloaders that aren't currently made ... We've got single shot pistols, revolvers, muskets, musketoons, carbines, rifles, revolving rifles, double barrel shotguns, cannons ... but what isn't available and apparently wasn't back in the day either was the revolving shotgun.

Nope ... wrong!

Revolving matchlocks date back to the 1500s! I actually have the plans to make one, but am making my own wheellocks right now. FYI, the early arms are my area of expertise.

Matchlock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hawg]

So they’re saying it’s possible!

No, they said they'd pass it along. Personally I doubt they will. When they discontinued the Old Army they said they weren't going to do any more bp. This would be more of a niche market than the Old Army was.

 

[woodnbow]

No, they said they'd pass it along. Personally I doubt they will. When they discontinued the Old Army they said they weren't going to do any more bp. This would be more of a niche market than the Old Army was.

Yeah, I’m sure it would sell in Europe but very small numbers.

 

[hawg]

Yeah, I’m sure it would sell in Europe but very small numbers.

Not enough to make them produce it. They said the ROA wasn't getting enough sales to continue production.