Gotta get it off my chest AR-15 vs. Mini-14

[R.W.Dale]

You can get an Olympic Arms gun from Bud's (they are in stock, $750 for one with sights...$120 more than the mini) but in what universe is Olympic or Del-Ton equivalent to Ruger?

This one with regards to the Mini

Even if you dislike Ruger, you've got to admit comparing one of the major premium brands to a generic isn't exactly apples to apples.

Ruger can make a premium rifle. The MINI isn't one of them. I like ruger particularly the M77, but actually paying money for a name is just silly

I was picking the low end of major brands because that's the only fair comparison. You can get an Olympic Arms gun from Bud's (they are in stock, $750 for one with sights...$120 more than the mini)

Or equal money with the purchase of 4 mags......of course we already went through this

ery handy for an online discussion. Gunbroker, as an auction site, can give a very misleading snapshot of prices. Especially if you pick auctions which haven't ended yet, as some people are wont to do.

Cite an example of a GB auction represented for this discussion that isn't a Buy It NOW


Representing the mini as some a tightwad .223 lovers panacea is complete hogwash. For all intensive purposes prices are within 10% of one another (unless you're the dumbest shopper in the world) and even less factoring in the magazine price difference.

So let's compare

With the mini you'll save about $100 for a rifle that

isn't as accurate
has only a token aftermarket
mags cost 3x as much and only come from ONE source if you want em to work
But by god it has RUGER stamped on the BBL


You know since it appears to all be about cost to you and if you're going to settle for the above deficiencies to save $100 why not save $300 and skip the mini all together and go with a Saiga or similar. At that way you'll have at least some aftermarket support.

 

[Avenger29]

Oh, and for the AR...while I vastly prefer PMAGs, you can also buy new aluminum mags, quality, for $10 a mag. So that's even more so in favor of the AR.

Plus, when you add in the capability of the AR, wide parts availability, simplicity, etc. there is no comparison. You can start with a $600 CMMG "bargain bin" rifle (available most of the time) and upgrade as you go if you feel the need. I'd still trust a $600 CMMG AR over the Mini-14. And, I know there are a couple of cheap or no cost upgrades I can throw in to help it even more, and I can do them in 10 minutes, plus for $60 I can buy a properly tested bolt.

 

[knights_armorer]

agree with benzy (i just used the del-ton because that way i only had to type one of the ones he listed)

but yes, i couldnt agree more. there are many fantastic deals to be had in the ar15 type rifles, and in my opinion (and ya, ive owned a mini, but i dont any more) they are all better for my needs than the mini (accuracy, verstility, ergos, and pretty much every other category, but mainly accuracy and versatility)

 

[knights_armorer]

after those last few posts it is my opinion that krochus is winning the thread in the fourth quarter with the following phrases, which i would compare to field goals.

Ruger can make a premium rifle. The MINI isn't one of them.

You know since it appears to all be about cost to you and if you're going to settle for the above deficiencies to save $100 why not save $300 and skip the mini all together and go with a Saiga or similar. At that way you'll have at least some aftermarket support.

and this one, which i think was not only a touchdown, but also a 2 point conversion.

Representing the mini as some a tightwad .223 lovers panacea is complete hogwash. For all intensive purposes prices are within 10% of one another (unless you're the dumbest shopper in the world)

the others and i are trailing slightly but there is still time to pull it out.

(and i would have to say after going through all the posts, the mini running out of the money)

 

[Ed Ames]

You know since it appears to all be about cost to you and if you're going to settle for the above deficiencies to save $100 why not save $300 and skip the mini all together and go with a Saiga or similar. At that way you'll have at least some aftermarket support.

LOL... no. How about I skip all of them? As I said before, I have no desire to eat coyotes or play amateur infantryman...and even less desire to play 3rd world cannon fodder. As for "representing the mini as some sort of tightwad .223 lover's ...", let's see what I actually said:

"The mini is a smaller and handier package. Maybe not lighter (didn't weigh them) but it is less of an awkward lump. That's partly materials (aluminum will always be bulkier) and partly style (pistol grips, high sight plane, long mags, accessory rails, etc).

"The AR is an open standards based, multi-vendor platform with limitless aftermarket/spares availability vs. Minis which are single-source solutions. Not that Ruger is going to go out of business but mini owners are far more dependent on a single entity and that's a bad thing in principle."

I think your reading comprehension is seriously lacking if you got "tightwad .223 lover's panacea" from that.

However, we have a couple of people who are claiming 1.5MOA for their cheap ARs. I just did a quick search, and a lot of people claim the 580 series mini (which was the gun the original poster specifically wanted to discuss) is a 1.5MOA rifle. So the accuracy claim seems a wash, at least for how the people use their guns.

Oh, and for the AR...while I vastly prefer PMAGs, you can also buy new aluminum mags, quality, for $10 a mag. So that's even more so in favor of the AR.

The mini I fired was running 20rd pro-mags. You can pick them up for $11. The difference between $10 and $11 isn't that significant to me.

As for the rest... I agree that the token aftermarket support is the big downside to the Ruger. OTOH, a lot of people flat don't care. I know people who purchased their rifle decades ago and have never even purchased a second magazine. So you can't really say it matters to everyone, or is a universal negative, even if it's really important to you. Personally I kinda go along with adding a few magazines because I like having them, but it's really not universally true. Rugers come with a couple of magazines and many people will stop there.

Brands and warranties matter. Example: Olympic's warranty is limited to the original owner. Ruger's policy is to support all Ruger-manufactured firearms regardless of when they were made or who originally bought them. That means I can sell a Ruger and the buyer is fairly likely to understand that the gun will be supported, no hassles. Ruger wins.

Oh, and I'm not sure anyone actually directly linked to a GB auction in this thread. Did they?

 

[gunnutery]

I would say that no one is winning (myself included as I posted to this thread earlier as well) because we're all just beating a very dead horse.

 

[knights_armorer]

I would say that no one is winning (myself included as I posted to this thread earlier as well) because we're all just beating a very dead horse.

actually krochus is winning, i know because im keeping score. scores are awarded by various points that have been made, a highly advanced system is being used, very comparable to the bcs college ranking system.

extra scores are also added by the varying validity and level of accuracy of opinions that happen to agree with my own.

its really quite complicated, and yet very simple at the same time.

trust me.

(by the way, points are deducted for failing to successfully recognise humor)

 

[benzy2]

However, we have a couple of people who are claiming 1.5MOA for their cheap ARs. I just did a quick search, and a lot of people claim the 580 series mini (which was the gun the original poster specifically wanted to discuss) is a 1.5MOA rifle. So the accuracy claim seems a wash, at least for how the people use their guns.

When I search here for mini 14 580 accuracy I get this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3811

Seems only 37% have 580 series rifles that hold that 1.5MOA and none consistently under 1 MOA. Maybe the rifle I had was in a 37% of Del-tons that shoot that well as well, don't know. That poll only has 40 some votes but its still at least a glimpse into what owners are getting.

Meh, it doesn't matter. This is going nowhere real fast. I like the mini, I really do. I just don't think it justifies the price being asked.

 

[AStone]

No, no, no.

I'm winning, because I haven't posted in this relatively inane argument.

Oh, wait ... so much for that. I just lost.

(See sig line for my preferences.)

 

[R.W.Dale]

"The mini is a smaller and handier package. OPINION Maybe not lighter (didn't weigh them) FACT but it is less of an awkward lump.OPINION That's partly materials (aluminum will always be bulkier) THAN WOOD? and partly style (pistol grips, high sight plane, long mags, accessory rails, etc).

However, we have a couple of people who are claiming 1.5MOA for their cheap ARs. I just did a quick search, and a lot of people claim the 580 series mini (which was the gun the original poster specifically wanted to discuss) is a 1.5MOA rifle. So the accuracy claim seems a wash, at least for how the people use their guns.

We shall see. I have 2 boxes of Monarch riding on the fact that this is NOT the case. What do you have riding on this

The mini I fired was running 20rd pro-mags. You can pick them up for $11. The difference between $10 and $11 isn't that significant to me.

read for yourself at how the POS $10 proMags rate.

I purchased four of these for my series 186 and none would feed. In fact, I could not even get the bolt to close with a loaded magazine without a lot of effort. I finally gave up and returned them and ordered the Promag steel version. They fit and function perfectly.

Bought 2, both would not let rounds chamber. All 20 rounds jammed. Not worth the saving over steel.

Looks good attached to the gun, however similar problem with the round getting stuck on the inside face of the mag. Will not allow the bolt to close/chamber. Purchase the steel mags.

These mags are horrible, I purchased 2, and they both jam like crazy. I mean like every other round. Also the magazines are very difficult to remove from your mini-14. I am sending them back to Promag, hopefully to be replaced with a couple steel mags.

The mag seemed to fit ok, but it would not hold the rounds. The problem seems to be flex in the plastic. I will be returning this mag and getting a steel one instead.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=171938


and the steel 20rd promags that actually halfway work cost $25

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I don't know a lot of AR15 fans who are pimping the gas piston. It's mostly non AR15 fans who are jumping on the bandwagon for the piston...

 

[R.W.Dale]

I think your reading comprehension is seriously lacking if you got "tightwad .223 lover's panacea" from that.

possibly because of

Bud's has them for $622. They have 9 in stock for less than $700.

However... where are NIB complete (ready to shoot) ARs from a major US brand (or, better yet, manufacturer) w/ a service policy like Ruger's for under about $950? Colt wants $982. Remington is in the $980 range too. S&W is $950ish. All of those are at Bud's for in stock weapons today.

At the bottom end, the mini is a solid $300 (or about 33%) less expensive

At the top end, the fanciest mini (again, from Bud's) is under $800 ($781 for a laminated stainless target model w/ fancy pistol grip stock) while the fanciest S&W runs $1404, the fanciest Colt runs $1399, the fanciest Bushmaster is $1487. The mini is $620/45% less expensive at the high end.

All of those are today's prices from Bud's Gun Shop for in-stock items.

So we go from only Colts can be used for comparison and "look to how much more expensive they are"

to "Price isn't important and I never argued as such"

in less than 12hrs

 

[Ed Ames]

Price isn't especially important, but someone was arguing that the prices were the same and they clearly aren't. I gave a specific example of how, if you compare name brand guns, the mini is between 33% and 45% less expensive because someone falsely claimed that the prices were no different.

You can't say, "you argued against someone else's claim therefore you are focused on price." They brought the price up, I pointed out that they were wrong.

"The mini is a smaller and handier package. OPINION Maybe not lighter (didn't weigh them) FACT but it is less of an awkward lump.OPINION That's partly materials (aluminum will always be bulkier) THAN WOOD? and partly style (pistol grips, high sight plane, long mags, accessory rails, etc).

You say opinion as though that's a bad thing. However... I'm not sure how you can say that 38"x7"x2" (max dimensions for a mini-14 as normally configured, as best as I can research) anything but smaller and more compact than 32-36"x11"x2.5" (max dimensions for an AR-15 as normally configured, again within the limits of my research) is just opinion.

Aluminum is bulkier than steel. The AR is made of aluminum, the mini is made of steel.

Yeah, you have two boxes of monarch riding... but you specifically designed the contest to exclude the minis that are sold for accuracy. I don't have anything riding because I've specifically said that, having shot both, neither gun is particularly useful for anything I do, and I don't think anyone can go to a range and do something with either one to prove me wrong.

As for the magazines... again, shrug. My very limited experience was with some steel magazines and they worked fine. The guy had a 30rd from the same maker that was a total POS and beyond. Midway's dealer price on the 20rd steel promags is $15.69 and the price difference fades to insignificance compared to getting the weapon you want.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Price isn't especially important, but someone was arguing that the prices were the same and they clearly aren't. I gave a specific example of how, if you compare name brand guns, the mini is between 33% and 45% less expensive because someone falsely claimed that the prices were no different.

and we then proceed to blow this argument completely out of the water with comparisons to NAME BRAND AR's that sell for the same or cheaper money than the mini. It's not our fault if you only know of gun manufacturers mentioned in the history channels "Tales Of the Gun" series

Yeah, you have two boxes of monarch riding... but you specifically designed the contest to exclude the minis that are sold for accuracy

so what you're really saying is you doubt 2.5" at 100 in 3minutes isn't possible with a mini without resorting to the "target model"


I rest my case your honor

 

[Ed Ames]

And we then proceed to blow this argument completely out of the water with comparisons to NAME BRAND AR's that sell for the same or cheaper money than the mini.

Not really. You made the claim that Olympic Arms, a company that started out making gun PARTS and did such a wonderful job building a reputation that they wanted to change their name in the 1980s, was comparable to Ruger as a brand. I think you know how silly that is. If you don't.... shrug. Olympic isn't even as much of a brand as Kel-tec. It's like people arguing between Honda, Toyota, VW, etc. and having someone pop up with Kia or Tata. It may be a great product, but it's not in the same class, won't have the same support, won't have the same resale, and so on.

So what you're really saying is you doubt 2.5" at 100 in 3minutes isn't possible with a mini without resorting to the "target model".

How would I know? As I've said, I don't own or regularly shoot one. The one I have shot was old enough to have a wooden handguard, which means it definitely wasn't one of the 580s from this thread. I just find it amusing that you specified iron sights when the type of sighting system has nothing to do with inherent accuracy, but it just happens to exclude the minis most likely to be purchased by people who care about accuracy/think they can shoot accurately.

I'll expand on that...

It's the indian not the arrow... or however that's supposed to go. I shoot around the DFW area, where there are a lot of ARs at the ranges, and frankly most people put holes all over the paper. Lots of 10" groups even at the 50 yard range. That doesn't mean the AR is inaccurate. It means most of those people can't shoot. At the same ranges there are guys with .22LR rifles that put bullet after bullet through ragged little holes at 50 yards. That doesn't mean that the .22LR is the pinnacle of accuracy, it doesn't even mean the .22LR is more accurate than the .223 AR. It means that some guys work really hard to get the accuracy they want.

What accuracy does the average mini shooter running iron sights shoot for? If they are really interested in accuracy, are they going to run a gun with no scope? Are they even going to buy a gun with a reputation for combat accuracy when there are other models of the same gun that are more accurate?

 

[R.W.Dale]

It's like people arguing between Honda, Toyota, VW, etc. and having someone pop up with Kia or

right there shows how much you keep up with the market place. VW is one of the absolute WORST automakers in terms of reliability and cost of ownership fAR FAR behind Kia motors.

Not really. You made the claim that Olympic Arms, a company that started out making gun PARTS and did such a wonderful job building a reputation that they wanted to change their name in the 1980s, was comparable to Ruger as a brand. I think you know how silly that is. If you don't..

I completely reject this argument as this thread is about today not 30yrs ago and today Olympic makes a quality rifle. you also fail to address DPMS and the OTHER manufacturers who sell an AR for the same price as a mini. Are you going to try to tell me that DPMS isn't a "name brand" whatever the hell that means?




I like Ruger but trust me they're not above churning out some real turds too, Mini, 77/22H hell Ive gotten a brand new in box 30 carbine blackhawk missing a the cylinder latch so the cylinder would freewheel even when cocked.

I also would like to point out that whatever firearm category you choose RUGER is the off brand with the only exclusions being single action revolvers and autoloading rimfire.
RUGER
Bolt Action Rifles - the off brand
Autoloading Centerfire rifle - the off brand
autoloading handgun - the off brand
DA revolver - the off brand
Muzzle Loader - the off brand
Shotguns - the off brand
Lever Actions -hyper the off brand

but it just happens to exclude the minis most likely to be purchased by people who care about accuracy/think they can shoot accurately.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!



I get what you're saying though. That the mini is a great rifle for folks who are poor shots

 

[gyvel]

I love it when somebody gets a controversial thread going...

 

[Ed Ames]

right there shows how much you keep up with the market place. VW is one of the absolute WORST automakers in terms of reliability and cost of ownership fAR FAR behind Kia motors.

Umm... yeah, I don't keep up with cars, but I know who Tata is.

I see the problem, though. You keep talking about the product, I'm talking about the brand. The fact that VW cars are unreliable and costly compared to Kia doesn't mean that the VW brand is behind Kia. You probably think a WRX is better than a 911 because it's cheaper. Nothing wrong with that, but a lot of people see things differently. Wrong or right, a lot of people will pay a higher percentage of new price for a used 911 than for a used WRX.

I never made any comment about the quality of Olympic firearms. They could be every bit as good as a Noveske at half the price, and a wonderful deal. Doesn't change my point.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I see the problem, though. You keep talking about the product, I'm talking about the brand. The fact that VW cars are unreliable and costly compared to Kia doesn't mean that the VW brand is behind Kia.

It does if you don't OWN the company and merely own the product. We consumers purchase PRODUCTS not brands.

I think I can speak for the majority of THR'ers in saying that the BRAND you own impresses us not in the least and that performance is everything

 

[Ed Ames]

Yeah, the brand doesn't matter unless you own the company... and, because the Hyundai Genesis compares favorably to some BMWs, they'll have the same resale value as a BMW.

You are safe in assuming the brands I own wouldn't impress anyone here. I tend to buy value products. I like good quality at low prices. I shop at Costco. The main brand I own in the military-style rifle domain is Mauser, and that only because there are so many nice surplus Mausers in the world. I don't expect anyone to be impressed by the Mauser name...I don't think many people these days even know the name. I'm not at all representative of the gun buying public. Most people buy Coke, not Generic Cola, and would even if you could prove they were bottled at the same plant.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Yeah, the brand doesn't matter unless you own the company... and, because the Hyundai Genesis compares favorably to some BMWs, they'll have the same resale value as a BMW.

REsale means what to a person who buys a product and intends to keep it for their lifetime?

ON the subject of GUN resale

I'll guarantee you that between a 5yr old mini and a 5 yr old DPMS Sportical that the sportical will be easier to move and sell for a rather significant amount more than the Ruger every day of the week and twice on Sunday

 

[C-grunt]

Umm... yeah, I don't keep up with cars, but I know who Tata is.

I see the problem, though. You keep talking about the product, I'm talking about the brand. The fact that VW cars are unreliable and costly compared to Kia doesn't mean that the VW brand is behind Kia. You probably think a WRX is better than a 911 because it's cheaper. Nothing wrong with that, but a lot of people see things differently. Wrong or right, a lot of people will pay a higher percentage of new price for a used 911 than for a used WRX.

I never made any comment about the quality of Olympic firearms. They could be every bit as good as a Noveske at half the price, and a wonderful deal. Doesn't change my point.

Hey dont bring my beloved REX into this. She did nothing wrong!

On a side note, I wouldnt call DA Ruger revolvers the "off brand". The GP100 is probably the 686 and all full size S&Ws biggest competition.

Also STAG is a big name in ARs. They make a very nice AR for a good price.

 

[Ed Ames]

I'll guarantee you that...

So if that turns out not to be the case you will make up the difference, everywhere, for all time. Sweet!

Sorry, it's just that "I'll guarantee" about an opinion sounds like you are trying to sell discount suits or something. Which I guess you are.

If you want an AR, why not get a properly built AR? It'll cost you a little more up front but is far more likely to survive the "real world" ... aka multi-day carbine courses.

 

[Mags]

Ed you are forgetting the best part of the AR world let me fix this quote for you.

If you want an AR, why not BUILD a properly built AR? It'll will be cheaper in the long run but is far more likely to survive the "real world" ... aka multi-day carbine courses.

 

[Ed Ames]

Building is good too...

But the cheaper claim is probably pure wishful thinking. I would bet the average person who would build a rifle ends up spending a LOT more than someone happy with an off-the-shelf model.

It's like computers... you can build up a really nice PC w/ motherboards, video cards, and so on all chosen for optimum performance... and you will spend less than if you bought the exact same machine from someone else... but it's always cheaper to go buy an off the shelf desktop.