Gotta get it off my chest AR-15 vs. Mini-14

[cacop]

I went to a multi day patrol rifle instructor school a year ago. Many kinds of ARs with all kinds of variations on gear, make, model, etc. One person ran an SU-16 and another ran a Mini-14. All finished the class with no problems. The Ruger shooter was running about average for the class. He was doing it with irons while most of the class had some sort of red dot on top.

That eperience alone taught me that it is the indian not the arrow.

Would I prefer a GOOD AR-15 over a Mini 14? Of course.

If limited to a Mini 14 would I be less well armed? No.

My 580 series mini with iron sights will not be the limiting factor in me being able to use it to defend myself under circumstances I am likely to face. I am the limiting factor. Even if TEOTWAWKI were to come it would do just fine. Would I feel more secure with a GOOD AR-15? Yes, but that is a feeling, not a fact. Most of us will rarely ever shoot our guns to their theoretical maximum. Sory if that bothers you but it is true. YOU are the weak like in just about every gun.

Other issues such as mags not being interchangable are interesting in an internet debate but they do not hold up well in real life. Let's be honest how many of us actually only own one handgun? How about one make and caliber of handgun? I thought so. Buy enough mags so you are set for life. I have 10 mags for my G17. I only use a few in a given year. I have 20+ mags for my 1911s. They don't work in my G17. That's why I have enough for each gun. I have more than enough AR and mini mags for my purposes. So unless you are going to dump every centerfire rifle that is not a .223 AR-15 the "mini 14 mags aren't compatible with AR-15" is bogus. Even if you do what about your trusty pistol? Are you going to dump everything that does not fit into a G17?

One thing that would impress me with a Mini 14 vs. AR-15 debate would be to comapre the older style skinny barrel ARs versus the Mini. One of these days maybe I'll pick up an old skinny barrel AR because I think those two are closer than the M4ish barreled guns that are popular.

 

[chuwee81]

Ed, I'd have to put in my 2 cents about your statement there. My first build put me at $690.00. That's also with Daniel Defense full auto BCG (complete). I could save another 20 bux if i go Tapco 6 position but i went with Command Arms buttstock since it has a storage compartment. Would i be happy buying a complete AR ? yes i would, but then again i couldn't afford it all at once and I'd feel much better equipped with the DD BCG.

 

[Ed Ames]

That sounds about right.

At the same time there are plenty of people with over $200 in the trigger, another $150 in the iron sights, another $190 in the mount for the scope... Brownells has a pretty nifty AR "barbi closet" web app where you can pick and choose components for your own AR build. It's easy to pass $1000 and not hard to pass $2000.

 

[ArmedBear]

So unless you are going to dump every centerfire rifle that is not a .223 AR-15 the "mini 14 mags aren't compatible with AR-15" is bogus.

Why would you have to dump non-AR-15 rifles? ALL the other rifles in the class use the AR magazine.

Kel-Tec, Beretta, Remington, Robinson Arms, FN, even Ruger's other .223 semiauto...

While I like some aspects of my Mini-14 a lot, the proprietary magazine is not an idle complaint.

The problem with Mini-14 magazines is that they are not realistically a multivendor item. Most of them don't work.

AR-15 magazines are multivendor, and because they're Mil Spec, they all work in the gun. This also makes a good one about half the price of a Mini-14 magazine that works.

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm going to toss my pebble into the water and then turn tail and beat feet b4 I get dragged in....

FWIW...

1.) I assembled a Del-Ton middy kit w/ an A2 upper, onto an Anvil Arms lower for $600, including two 30 round mil. spec mags with PMAG followers (b4 the Obomination). It's 16" HBAR, so a little front heavy, but is both handy, accurate and very easy to shoot accurately. It's a great rifle and has been 100% reliable.

2.) Though I won't forgive Bill Ruger for selling out to the Democrats, I long admired the mini from afar (the internet) as a handy little rifle. That is untill I actually handled a couple of them. The mini lost it's allure. Not light at all.

got to go now.... see ya!

 

[gyvel]

I know I'll get ripped for this, but here goes anyway:

I would personally rather have an AR simply because there are a heck of a lot more parts that are readily available for it than the Mini 14. In general, the AR seems to be a bit more versatile.

Other than that, I would guess that they are more or less equal. (Except for the Mini 14s that were having problems with cracked receivers in the '80s.)

 

[flynlr]

while I did watch the A team in the early 80's and was amazed that the mini 14 could spit out a billion rounds of ammo and not hurt anyone . I am certain that you can not use an Mini like this,.

 

[strambo]

flynlr...you should have gotten the long barrel to maximize velocity! What manf. is that? is the barrel longer than 30"? and how does she shoot?

 

[scythefwd]

flynlr - you can't use that very well either without sights That a .50 bmg upper? How do you load that... do you shotgun the receiver and drop the round in that way?

 

[Kindrox]

Bud's has them for $622. They have 9 in stock for less than $700.

However... where are NIB complete (ready to shoot) ARs from a major US brand (or, better yet, manufacturer) w/ a service policy like Ruger's for under about $950? Colt wants $982. Remington is in the $980 range too. S&W is $950ish. All of those are at Bud's for in stock weapons today.

I purchased adjustable stock CMMG lowers with RRA two-stage triggers for $250, and complete uppers (Bushmaster 4150 pencil profile barrels, RRA bolts, forged charging handles) for ~$500 each.

Name brand ARs for $750, although this was about a year pre-Obama. That puts my ARS at about $125 over a stock Mini.

 

[Avenger29]

That a .50 bmg upper? How do you load that... do you shotgun the receiver and drop the round in that way?

Single shot bolt action- you draw the bolt back and drop the round in from the side. Notice the gigantic bolt handle hanging down forward of the magwell.

Pretty dang awesome- I need to get one just cause, but don't have $1K laying around...nor can I afford the ammunition!

I do wish someone would make a single shot .308 upper in the same way. That could be pretty cool.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I had a first hand eye opening experience recently. I took a "carbine" class over the weekend. There were six ARs, 1 mini-14, 1 M1A. About 300 rounds were used over the two day class. 5 of the 7 ARs at some point during the class had issues and didn't go bang when the trigger was pulled. Three of these would have been not been able to be fixed in real time self defense. The M1A and mini-14 performed flawlessly for the class and both owners claimed to have never had a single round not fire. The ARs were in good shape and not junk. I asked the instructor, who does training as a full time job, if this result was typical of the two weapon systems (AR and mini) and he said yes. Based on what I saw and the instructor's general experience, I think the mini-14 is a more reliable system platform. In fact to the point where I would NOT choose an AR over a mini-14. Toss in the fact that the AR sights are 2.5" above the barrel and you need to modify your point of aim for close in shots (don't on M1A or mini), to me I very much prefer the mini-14 over the AR. Again, all my opinion.

 

[kwelz]

What brand were the ARs. Lower Quality ARs are known to break in these classes.

I have never been impressed with the Mini design. It's general lack of accuracy, aftermarket/spare parts, and high cost for what you get are all turnoffs to me.

 

[Avenger29]

What brand were the ARs. Lower Quality ARs are known to break in these classes.

I have never been impressed with the Mini design. It's general lack of accuracy, aftermarket/spare parts, and high cost for what you get are all turnoffs to me.

More importantly, how were they run? Wet, little lubricant, or bone dry?

Some still teach bone dry or small amount of lube, which will cause an AR to choke after several hundred rounds. Run it wet, run it hard!

 

[cacop]

Why would you have to dump non-AR-15 rifles? ALL the other rifles in the class use the AR magazine.

Kel-Tec, Beretta, Remington, Robinson Arms, FN, even Ruger's other .223 semiauto...

While I like some aspects of my Mini-14 a lot, the proprietary magazine is not an idle complaint.

The problem with Mini-14 magazines is that they are not realistically a multivendor item. Most of them don't work.

AR-15 magazines are multivendor, and because they're Mil Spec, they all work in the gun. This also makes a good one about half the price of a Mini-14 magazine that works.

What I am getting at is that unless your centerfire rifles only consist an AR-15 mag fed weapon you will have to buy magazines other than AR-15 magazines.

That means no AK, FAL, M1A, etc. Otherwise you run into the problem of having non AR-15 pattern mags.

Now if all you ever run is AR-15 magazines through weapons that will take them then you can complain about the proprietary magazine issue.

The AR-15 is essentially the rifle equivalent of the 1911. Many different manufacturers and modifications to the original design. Different quality of manufacturing on guns and magazines. They all take the same magazine. Not all weapons function with all magazines.

I think with what Ruger has done with the Mini recently is to cut into the bottom end of the AR market. That is people looking for a .223 plinker that can double for self defense. I think they intend to capture the higher end AR market with their piston AR-15. If they were to try for that market with the Mini they would have to redo the gas block and the barrel so much they would essentially have a new gun.

Essentially the Mini is for what most people use their AR-15s for: plinking with possibilites for more. If you really want accuracy you are better off going another route. Think bolt actions with scopes.

 

[flynlr]

flynlr...you should have gotten the long barrel to maximize velocity! What manf. is that? is the barrel longer than 30"? and how does she shoot?

It is a Bohica MKIII 36" the Glass is arriving next week Then I will know how it shoots.
.

flynlr - you can't use that very well either without sights That a .50 bmg upper? How do you load that... do you shotgun the receiver and drop the round in that way?

Single shot Bolt action as noted above,, I wish the ammo wasnt 3-5 dollars a round but
it will make a nice varmit rifle. depending on what you define as varmits.

 

[dom1104]

I had a first hand eye opening experience recently. I took a "carbine" class over the weekend. There were six ARs, 1 mini-14, 1 M1A. About 300 rounds were used over the two day class. 5 of the 7 ARs at some point during the class had issues and didn't go bang when the trigger was pulled. Three of these would have been not been able to be fixed in real time self defense. The M1A and mini-14 performed flawlessly for the class and both owners claimed to have never had a single round not fire. The ARs were in good shape and not junk. I asked the instructor, who does training as a full time job, if this result was typical of the two weapon systems (AR and mini) and he said yes. Based on what I saw and the instructor's general experience, I think the mini-14 is a more reliable system platform. In fact to the point where I would NOT choose an AR over a mini-14. Toss in the fact that the AR sights are 2.5" above the barrel and you need to modify your point of aim for close in shots (don't on M1A or mini), to me I very much prefer the mini-14 over the AR. Again, all my opinion.

Wow. now this is interesting. 5 out of 7 is truly bad. What class was this if I might ask? I mean if the instructor says he sees failures all the time...

Maybe its time to buy a saiga in .223

 

[Art Eatman]

While it was uncommon for me to ever blast through a full magazine of ammo in either an AR or a Mini, I have done it a few times. In the FWIW department, back in the late 1970s the "high cap" mags for Minis were reasonably priced and functioned quite well. I even bought a 40-rounder. I think I did one blast-off run with it from my bench rest. (Shrug) The Mini functioned as it always did--flawlessly.

 

[Ed Ames]

I've been refraining from sharing this anecdote because it is only that, an anecdote... but I think it illustrates a point.

A few months ago I went shooting at one of the public ranges around here. I think I had my .270 out... anyway, I was shooting a rifle. Ranges around here always have a lot of ARs so I wasn't paying much attention to the group a few lanes down that was sharing a "classic" (non-collapsing stock) AR between them.

What did catch my eye was when someone came out of the range office with a hammer and wooden stake, hefting them and saying something about "specialty M-16 repair tools." He was followed by one of the people from the group, who I assume had gone in to ask for help.

The guy, an employee at the range, proceeded to lay about the AR with the hammer and stake, talking about McNamara how he had to do this "too damned often". The group of who brought the gun watched the process mutely. The hammering was quite methodical actually, but, after several minutes of trying, the hammer-wielder gave up, saying, "it's not coming apart, maybe a gunsmith can get it unjammed."

The group packed up their rifle and left, shooting over for the day.

OK, it was a rubber mallet, not a hammer, but it was still a unique sight in my experience. I've never seen the like with ANY other firearm, ever.

But you can't really draw anything from it. The shooters could've been using bad/incorrect ammo, it may not have been cleaned properly in 20 years, it might be a home-built gun, or built by a corner-cutting discount maker... who knows? That's the problem with judging generic ARs against a single name-brand rifle from a single manufacturer. One AR, properly built, may run flawlessly for 50,000rds. Another AR, which from the outside looks exactly the same as the first, may have critical parts coming loose after 500rds.

People bragging up the AR platform tend to cite the 50,000rd AR for reliability, and what may well end up being a 5,000rd AR for price, but that's another issue.

 

[Mags]

Ed, the AR was not designed to be driven apart, it should have been "pogoed" as designed but alot of people are too scared to slam the butt of their precious AR on the ground to clear a malfunction as designed.

 

[amd6547]

The Mini 14 I owned was a 1980's model which was very inaccurate at 50yds...it couldn't stay on a paper plate at that range. It also suffered from the occasional jam.
My current AR is a retro A1 clone I put together myself using a surplus GI Colt upper.
I can pick off clay pigeons at 100yds using iron sights, and it has been 100% reliable.
Plus, with a cheaply acquired used spare carbine upper, and CAR stock, I can reconfigure my AR into a shorty. I think I have $500 in my basic AR-A1. Since I picked up the parts over the course of a few months, it wasn't a big outlay.
The new Mini's may be better, but I don't have the $$'s to experiment.

 

[zstephens13]

This is certainly getting pretty heated...

 

[X-Rap]

As has been pointed out the AR is to rifles as the 1911 and small block chevy is to pistols and motors. There is no other rifle that has as many parts and accessories available. That in itself does not make it superior but the fact that it and the AK are ubiquitous when it comes to modern semi's as well as military issue gives the platform plenty of credibility.
I'm sure if there were anywhere near the quantity of Mini's out there the failure/accuracy issues would be off the charts compared to AR's. The Mini is simply a sideshow in the semi auto circus and always will be.
The ones I have had were all 70's and 80's production but as other have stated MO paper plate was the consistant level of accuracy and shamefull from an American gun maker. The newer mods may be better but for the reasons stated above I see no need to try one with ample AR's to play with.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Toss in the fact that the AR sights are 2.5" above the barrel and you need to modify your point of aim for close in shots (don't on M1A or mini), to me I very much prefer the mini-14 over the AR. Again, all my opinion.

The reason the AR sights are 2.5" above the barrel is because it uses an inline stock that allows the recoil to come straight back into the stock and the shooter's shoulder, making for the incredibly light recoil on an AR. You can also see this same concept on pretty much every automatic or semi-automatic rifle designed for military use in the last decade.

The Mini, with it's traditional stock design, means that the recoil force is above the stock (and thus your shoulder) and gives it more muzzle flip. Give the same shooter a Mini and an AR and let them fire the same course and they will be faster with the AR on average.

Not to mention that because the AR is so modular, you can mount something like an Aimpoint T1 in a Larue LT-724 mount and have a height over bore comparable to a Mini, while still keeping the inline recoil of the AR.

 

[Ignition Override]

One strange thing about Ruger, which has been posted for many months at "Perfectunion", is that they only

B e g a n selling Ruger factory-made 20-round Mini 14 mags to the civilian public,
A f t e r the presidential election.

And Ruger now sells a 20-rd. magazine with the new Mini-30.