Gotta get it off my chest AR-15 vs. Mini-14
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Clarence222,
I know you are not calling me out. Many rifle makers stipulate what types of ammo are "safe" in their rifles. The biggest problem with Wolf is the lacquer begins to coat the chamber and will at some point cause a failure. DSA is very clear about what types of ammo not to use in my FAL. However, I use my hand loads more often than factory. A risk I am willing to take. I was just trying to point out that an AR does not have to cost $1000 or more. Even if it does not have a rear sight.
I know you are not calling me out. Many rifle makers stipulate what types of ammo are "safe" in their rifles. The biggest problem with Wolf is the lacquer begins to coat the chamber and will at some point cause a failure. DSA is very clear about what types of ammo not to use in my FAL. However, I use my hand loads more often than factory. A risk I am willing to take. I was just trying to point out that an AR does not have to cost $1000 or more. Even if it does not have a rear sight.
Ed Ames
Member
Bud's has them for $622. They have 9 in stock for less than $700.
However... where are NIB complete (ready to shoot) ARs from a major US brand (or, better yet, manufacturer) w/ a service policy like Ruger's for under about $950? Colt wants $982. Remington is in the $980 range too. S&W is $950ish. All of those are at Bud's for in stock weapons today.
At the bottom end, the mini is a solid $300 (or about 33%) less expensive
At the top end, the fanciest mini (again, from Bud's) is under $800 ($781 for a laminated stainless target model w/ fancy pistol grip stock) while the fanciest S&W runs $1404, the fanciest Colt runs $1399, the fanciest Bushmaster is $1487. The mini is $620/45% less expensive at the high end.
All of those are today's prices from Bud's Gun Shop for in-stock items.
R.W.Dale
Member
But when you factor in the coat diffrence for even as few as 4 30rd mags this price diffrence all but dissapears into the vaguries of local market diffrences
the DPMS sportical is a no frills but quality AR that sells for right at the same price as a new mini
the DPMS sportical is a no frills but quality AR that sells for right at the same price as a new mini
haha i have owned, and hate them both, the AR and the mini.
if i worked on a ranch i would buy a mini.
if i wanted to win at camp perry i would use an AR
there is very little in the way of crossover attributes between them, other than the 5.56/.223 round and a ZERO-SUM FAN BASE
if i worked on a ranch i would buy a mini.
if i wanted to win at camp perry i would use an AR
there is very little in the way of crossover attributes between them, other than the 5.56/.223 round and a ZERO-SUM FAN BASE
Ed Ames
Member
Not sure how your math works out.
30rd Ruger-brand mini mags will run you $50 at retail (Midway puts them at $35/ea for dealers).
I was at the local Academy earlier and they had P-Mags for $30/ea.
50-30=20
20*4=80
$80 is significantly less than $300, and even more significantly less than $620.
That's not even getting into the fact that you can buy 20rd mini mags for closer to $10 and 20rd is arguably a better size for the mini.
Not a good comparison. DPMS gives a 3 year warranty and the buyer is responsible for shipping to/from DPMS for repair. http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warranty.aspx
PMags are going for their usual $15 bucks ballpark for non-window varieties these days.
50-15 = $35
$35*2 = $70
$35*4 = $140
$35*6 = $210
I'll stop at 6. The Mini crowd doesn't seem like the "I need 30 magazines stashed away just in case" type.
50-15 = $35
$35*2 = $70
$35*4 = $140
$35*6 = $210
I'll stop at 6. The Mini crowd doesn't seem like the "I need 30 magazines stashed away just in case" type.
Ed Ames
Member
Someone tell Academy that.
And even then... $140 is still a lot less than $300, so you really haven't argued against my disproof of krochus's assertion.
But if we want to complete the comparison... How much does Colt charge for Colt-brand magazines? It's only fair to compare factory to factory.
And even then... $140 is still a lot less than $300, so you really haven't argued against my disproof of krochus's assertion.
But if we want to complete the comparison... How much does Colt charge for Colt-brand magazines? It's only fair to compare factory to factory.
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jerkface11
Member
The mini is in fact so much better than the AR that Ruger doesn't even bother to make one.
I laugh on the inside everytime I see PMags at Academy still wearing a $30 price tag.
The cost difference in magazines is a valid point to raise, but its value is solely up to the individual. If you intend to buy more than eight or nine magazines, the "cost" scale tips the other way. That said, not everybody needs/wants that many mags.
A quick google search found 30-round aluminum magazines with green followers branded "Colt" for $27 each. A Brownell's 30 round magazine with a grey follower can be found for $10. The third-party magazine is the higher quality magazine, at a lower cost.
Averaging the rated magazines on the first page of search results for "mini-14 magazine" at midway gives 2.5 stars. It would seem that less expensive third party magazines are not consistently an equal or greater quality replacement for a factory Ruger magazine.
The cost difference in magazines is a valid point to raise, but its value is solely up to the individual. If you intend to buy more than eight or nine magazines, the "cost" scale tips the other way. That said, not everybody needs/wants that many mags.
A quick google search found 30-round aluminum magazines with green followers branded "Colt" for $27 each. A Brownell's 30 round magazine with a grey follower can be found for $10. The third-party magazine is the higher quality magazine, at a lower cost.
Averaging the rated magazines on the first page of search results for "mini-14 magazine" at midway gives 2.5 stars. It would seem that less expensive third party magazines are not consistently an equal or greater quality replacement for a factory Ruger magazine.
If Ruger will give you a lifetime warranty and pay to ship your rifle back, the DPMS is probably more rifle for the money. The cost of warranty issues gets worked into the price of the product, you ARE paying for it. A 3 year warranty period is more than long enough to find a manufacturer's defect, and having the customer pay to ship it in probably weeds out a lot of the piddly stuff that would drive the cost of a warranty program up.
R.W.Dale
Member
Reading comprehension is FUNdamental
How you figure? Just because with the ruger any issue REQUIRES a trip back to the factory doesn't mean the same applies to the DPMS.
Barring a catastrophic structural failure that'll 99.999999% of the time pop up in the first range trip. I'm not going to even bother boxing up an AR to send in for service for dinky non issues that will take ruger specialists to fix with a mini. Extractors, gas tubes, firing pins, gas rings trigger problems you name it any number of potential issues can be fixed in 20 minutes for less than $30
Not that Ive EVER had any such issues, and besides after three years of ownership who in the world would still have a 100% stock AR
What you omit is the figure of $50 stands as a representation of the absolute cheapest 30 rd Mini mag that can be expected to actually work. And $30 represents one of the biggest examples of overpricing for a 30rd AR mag
BTW the last 30rd colt mag I bought cost me $18 and that was mid panic.
hmm. I only have two things to say.
A rifle that is not accurate is not a "decent rifle" it is useless.
It is 2009. You can easily get accuracy reliability and durability in a weapon. Its time to evolve past the old standards of mere function. A rifle should be, and at this point there is no reason for it NOT to be, an accurate tool.
The second thing is the amount of money talked about here is irrelevant. Wether something costs a few hundred dollars more is truly not an issue for the average american. Get a minimum wage job, and wait a few more weeks. You will be spending a LOT more on ammunition, and if you cant afford that.... then you need to rethink owning and becoming proficient in a gun use.
Nobody said it was going to be cheap.
Edit: Oh and, yeah I buy DH brand mags with magpul anti-tilt followers for 9 bucks, and Pmags for 14. so not sure where these super high AR mag prices come from.
Do I feel good about having plenty of mags to prepare for future hi-cap bans? yessir I do.
A rifle that is not accurate is not a "decent rifle" it is useless.
It is 2009. You can easily get accuracy reliability and durability in a weapon. Its time to evolve past the old standards of mere function. A rifle should be, and at this point there is no reason for it NOT to be, an accurate tool.
The second thing is the amount of money talked about here is irrelevant. Wether something costs a few hundred dollars more is truly not an issue for the average american. Get a minimum wage job, and wait a few more weeks. You will be spending a LOT more on ammunition, and if you cant afford that.... then you need to rethink owning and becoming proficient in a gun use.
Nobody said it was going to be cheap.
Edit: Oh and, yeah I buy DH brand mags with magpul anti-tilt followers for 9 bucks, and Pmags for 14. so not sure where these super high AR mag prices come from.
Do I feel good about having plenty of mags to prepare for future hi-cap bans? yessir I do.
Ed Ames
Member
But reality comprehension is more fun.
You have a real world local market price. $622. Local variation is in transfer fees - $10 to $50. $50 (worst case) is a lot less than $160-220 (price difference minus mag price difference for 4 mags).
No, both stand for exactly what you can expect to pay if you go to a local retail store.
In reality, most stores will have ProMag 20rd mini mags for far less than $50 and they supposedly work fine.
That can cut both ways... the less likely warranty work is, the cheaper it is for a manufacturer to offer long term support....and the better support is part of the value you are buying.
The other problem with the premise is that, according to all I have read, ARs are far from equal. I have heard many people say that cheap ARs lack many things (correct feed ramps, staked fasteners, chrome linings, etc) that are necessary if you want an AR that can survive the carbine courses that mini-critics say are the proof minis aren't reliable enough. So in effect the claim is, "A $1300 AR can take a pounding, the $630 mini can't. A $700 AR looks a lot like the $1300 AR, therefore the $700 AR is a better value than the mini." By that logic, a $100 airsoft ACOG is more reliable than a $500 EOTech because it looks like a $900 scope. Beyond that, Krochus misstated the price of the Sportical by no small amount. They run close to $700 without sights, which is far from "right at the same price" as $630 ready to roll...so you are paying more for an off-brand that only LOOKS like the gun that earns the reliability accolades. Might as well get one of the .22LR versions... they are another $400 cheaper and they look a lot more like an AR than the mini does.
As for magazines... seems as though 20rd is the standard size for a mini (it's what Ruger ships, last I checked) and aftermarket 20rd mags work well as a rule and cost less than many AR mags. Seems like the 30rd comparison is sort of like comparing a Glock and 1911 on the basis that 15rd magazines for the glock are cheaper.
Dealer price for an HK AR-15 30rd magazine from Midway is $49.99.
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Ok you can quote online gun price but not online mag prices? (double standard) Locally here you can get a Mini 14 for 800 dollars and a Rock River AR for 850. Pmags go for 15 bucks at the local gun shops here by the way. Plus ARs are flooding the market since the panic buyin has subsided.
Ed Ames
Member
Naw, I went along with whatever price was quoted by the other poster ($15) and it still proved my point. No double standard.
Re: accuracy being necessary for decency... accuracy is always relative. From what I've read the minis mentioned at the start of the thread (580? Something like that) are decently accurate by real world standards.
My own experience with minis is limited to an older model (right down to the wooden handguard) and it would be fine for CNS shots inside 100M and COM until the lack of any practical bullet drop compensation adjustment for the rear sight became an issue.
Re: accuracy being necessary for decency... accuracy is always relative. From what I've read the minis mentioned at the start of the thread (580? Something like that) are decently accurate by real world standards.
My own experience with minis is limited to an older model (right down to the wooden handguard) and it would be fine for CNS shots inside 100M and COM until the lack of any practical bullet drop compensation adjustment for the rear sight became an issue.
jerkface11: you do know that ruger has the piston AR now right ?
Haven't shot the mini and got no money lying around so can't really add plus or minusses in the discussion. I almost nabbed one when i saw one here for sale though. Anyway...
I have shot my friend's AR. He's not a "gunny" type, i.e: do not like to clean his guns. It was cruddy, dirty but still works. I have gathered here that AR likes to be cleaned meticulously. After shooting his, that is not the case. It felt sluggish at one point but still works. So one day i offered to take it home with me and clean it. The more i see the feautres, the more i find that it's a very interesting system with great user serviceability. Like Krochus mentioned, if anything broke down, it's most likely an easy fix. DSG arms has 10 pack of magpul pmags with window for 99 shipped (sales tax if you're in TX) and received my shipment in last Wednesday.
I think what appeals most about the AR is that it's a tinkerer's gun. You can have it in any flavor you want. You can build all the way, you can build the lower first and get a complete upper, it's up to you. The accesories are endless and easy to add on. I have been tinkering with paintball guns when i was younger so when i found out about an AR and that you can build it from the ground up, I'm sold. I have just completed putting all the parts in my lower last Monday and was surprised on how easy and FUN it was (upper is being built - no idea when they'll ship). The BEST part, since my pocket isn't deep, you can build it part by part as you save up money, but that's just me.
Overall, shoot and buy what you like. If it works for you, then great. If you want to prove the other person otherwise, then by all means i think Krochus has posted a (fun and friendly - i hope) challenge here. Should be interesting to see the results. Me? i don't care if one is more accurate than the other, all i know i'll have fun burning ammo at the range. They both have their niches. I don't think i want to put my "custom" AR in the back of my car/truck and drive it around all day. That's probably what the mini is for (when i can afford one).
disclaimer: custom is a blue collar word for frankengun because i'm too poor to get a complete one.
Haven't shot the mini and got no money lying around so can't really add plus or minusses in the discussion. I almost nabbed one when i saw one here for sale though. Anyway...
I have shot my friend's AR. He's not a "gunny" type, i.e: do not like to clean his guns. It was cruddy, dirty but still works. I have gathered here that AR likes to be cleaned meticulously. After shooting his, that is not the case. It felt sluggish at one point but still works. So one day i offered to take it home with me and clean it. The more i see the feautres, the more i find that it's a very interesting system with great user serviceability. Like Krochus mentioned, if anything broke down, it's most likely an easy fix. DSG arms has 10 pack of magpul pmags with window for 99 shipped (sales tax if you're in TX) and received my shipment in last Wednesday.
I think what appeals most about the AR is that it's a tinkerer's gun. You can have it in any flavor you want. You can build all the way, you can build the lower first and get a complete upper, it's up to you. The accesories are endless and easy to add on. I have been tinkering with paintball guns when i was younger so when i found out about an AR and that you can build it from the ground up, I'm sold. I have just completed putting all the parts in my lower last Monday and was surprised on how easy and FUN it was (upper is being built - no idea when they'll ship). The BEST part, since my pocket isn't deep, you can build it part by part as you save up money, but that's just me.
Overall, shoot and buy what you like. If it works for you, then great. If you want to prove the other person otherwise, then by all means i think Krochus has posted a (fun and friendly - i hope) challenge here. Should be interesting to see the results. Me? i don't care if one is more accurate than the other, all i know i'll have fun burning ammo at the range. They both have their niches. I don't think i want to put my "custom" AR in the back of my car/truck and drive it around all day
. That's probably what the mini is for (when i can afford one). disclaimer: custom is a blue collar word for frankengun because i'm too poor to get a complete one
.
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But there is a double standard. You are only picking rifles for sale at budsgunshop as examples of what low end ARs cost. That isn't realistic. Olympic Arms has for a long time sold some of the least expensive ARs you can get. Del-ton is a bit newer but in the same boat. A lot of the internet stores are out of Olyarms ARs right now but they can be had through gunbroker NIB from dealers for under $700 before transfer. You can get a Del-ton AR from aimsurplus.com for under $700 as well. Olyarms has a lifetime warranty, not sure on Del-ton. Budsgunshop isn't the be all end all you want to make it. If you want to consider internet shops as local market value then you have to consider all of the internet and not just the one site, as good as it may be. Add in the mag cost difference and things get a lot closer than you make it out to be.
Ed Ames
Member
Nope. I was picking name brand rifles from major brands or, by preference, manufacturers. I picked the low end of major brands because that's the only fair comparison to the low end of another major brand rifle. I then picked high ends of those same brands to compare against the high end of the other major brand rifle. I didn't include off brands. You can get an Olympic Arms gun from Bud's (they are in stock, $750 for one with sights...$120 more than the mini) but in what universe is Olympic or Del-Ton equivalent to Ruger? Even if you dislike Ruger, you've got to admit comparing one of the major premium brands to a generic isn't exactly apples to apples. I debated including Stag but even they are an off brand in comparison.
It's not that Bud's are the end-all either. CDNN sells the mini for under $600. However, they are visible and nobody has to take my word about the prices...very handy for an online discussion. Gunbroker, as an auction site, can give a very misleading snapshot of prices. Especially if you pick auctions which haven't ended yet, as some people are wont to do.
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knights_armorer
Member
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actually, that would be this universe, right here in the good ole milky way.
the base model del-ton will out shoot a base model mini14, every time. not to mention be capable of being upgraded into a premium level ar15 just as fast or slow as its owner feels like it.
but it will definitly out shoot a mini in the same price range, right out of the box.
What makes them Olympic an off brand? They have been around since 1956, not quite a short history. What makes them less comparable to a mini than a S&W AR? I have a stag model 1 and if you didn't look at the roll marks on the lower you wouldn't be able to tell a S&W, Remington, or whatever "name brand" you want to include. This debate has been AR's compared to the Mini, not name brand AR's compared to the mini. Its a double standard any way you look at it.
Compare them how you like. You try to argue that AR mags run $30 a piece and that only certain ARs are good enough to be compared to the mini. I had a Del-ton Carbine length rifle before and had only the one jam which was resolved by a new magazine. It shot handloads from 1"-1.5" though it tended to stick closer to 1.5" at 100 yards. My Stag has held very similar accuracy though with different loads and has be hovering right under the 1.5" mark as well and it has yet to have any malfunction of any kind. I don't know what quality, both from reliability and accuracy, that you are looking for but even the budget ARs hold good results.
Compare them how you like. You try to argue that AR mags run $30 a piece and that only certain ARs are good enough to be compared to the mini. I had a Del-ton Carbine length rifle before and had only the one jam which was resolved by a new magazine. It shot handloads from 1"-1.5" though it tended to stick closer to 1.5" at 100 yards. My Stag has held very similar accuracy though with different loads and has be hovering right under the 1.5" mark as well and it has yet to have any malfunction of any kind. I don't know what quality, both from reliability and accuracy, that you are looking for but even the budget ARs hold good results.
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