Gun Store Etiquette & Gun Differences (new shooter)

[Ed Ames]

Also note that there are a lot of opinions....

...
If you never want to do anything other than shoot paper targets

Or small game, metal plates, reactive targets, tin cans, etc. ... Well, scratch the 'never' part unless you live in a place that only allows one gun. It's the best overall first gun if you can get ammo.

If you want a gun that you can keep in your home, business or car for self defense, then a mid size, 4 inch barreled .38 Special double action revolver

Is what your grandfather probably would have been limited to. However, they are getting to be rare in gun stores because for the last 40+ years the market has been dominated by semi-auto pistols with 2-3 times the capacity.

A 9mm, .40, or .45 semi-auto is a proven winner for personal defense, with modern designs offering hard to to beat combinations of price, reliability, and performance.

NEVER EVER TRY TO USE A SINGLE ACTION (COWBOY STYLE) REVOLVER FOR SELF DEFENSE UNLESS YOU...

Want to. Then realize it takes a lot of skill and dedicate yourself to practice. Recognize that such guns have not been state of the art defensive weapons for 130+ years for a reason. However, these guns are exceptional hunting weapons. If you want to hunt and can afford only one, you are better off with a cowboy revolver than a 9mm pistol. Best to have both though.

S&W (SMITH & WESSON) and RUGER both make .357 magnum

Revolvers, which are a lot like the .38 revolvers mentioned before.

Do not use a NON-EXPANDING round like the full metal jacket ammo or non hollow point ammo.

For hunting or self defense, unless required by law. However, it is awesome for low cost practice.

I would avoid larger calibers like the .41, .44 or .45

Unless you also have a .22 because they are expensive to shoot.

If you want a gun primarily for concealed carry, you will probably want

A pistol, just as you would for home defense. Some people choose to use the same sidearm for both, while others carry a compact or subcompact.

 

[herrwalther]

It is reasonable to expect the clerk to remove any trigger or slide locking device before handling the gun? I've oftentimes wondered what prevents "bad guys" from bringing a loaded magazine into the store, slipping it into the gun, and robbing the store using the store's gun. Or in the case of a revolver, just bringing in a few loose rounds.

In my experience some stores will remove the trigger lock/cable and some won't. I grew up in NY so don't expect many shops up there to unlock a display firearm to fool around with. I suppose it is plausible to rob a store with a display firearm bringing in your own ammo. But 99% of gun stores I have shopped in carry loaded firearms themselves. So probably not a smart choice.

 

[oneounceload]

for the wife Look up "Cornered Cat"

For BOTH of them, not just her.

 

[golden]

Did you actually read the op

Ed Ames,

What did the OP say he wanted his first gun for? By the way, have you noticed that non-hunters are becoming the MAJORITY of gun buyers?

My first choice would be a 9m.m. loaded with +P for self defense, but I have carried a gun as an LEO for 24 years. Are you really going to recommend a semi-auto to someone with LITTLE TO NO EXPERIENCE? Really?

If you want to recommend a single action to a new shooter for self defense, I hope you will admit your part in the disaster that will happen when an inexperienced shooter has an accidental discharge or misses the first shot and gets killed before they can get off a second shot.
There is a reason that NO POLICE AGENCY ISSUES SINGLE ACTION REVOLVERS. Maybe you missed that?

Also, I did recommend the 130 grain "AIR FORCE" loads for practice. It is frequently what I use when I shoot my .38 Special. As for hunting, if you use this load, you should be ashamed.
Non expanding loads like the heavy hunting loads have NO PLACE in a self defense situation. NYPD tried them as a replacement for the lead round nose and found they worked no better.
They will penetrate deeply and maybe go all the way through, but that is a negative in a self defense situation.

ONCE AGAIN, WHERE DID THE OP MENTION HUNTING?

About those wonderful .41, .44 and .45 Long Colt revolvers. HAVE YOU EVER CARRIED ONE CONCEALED. They are big for a reason and with the price of big bore ammo at @$45.00 to $50.00 for a 50 round box, I think it is again, a poor choice for a house gun.
My S&W model 24 and 25, stay in the gun safe. If I want a hard hitter and pass on my BERETTA 92 or 96 or GLOCK or SIG, I will use a .357 magnum. At least if I can find ammo!
The model 24, a six inch and 25, a 4 inch make a good hunting or hiking gun, but no one mentioned hunting!

Jim

 

[Theohazard]

A few people have given potentially bad advice about where to point the firearm: Don't pick your own safe direction, instead wait to point the gun anywhere until you know exactly where the store's preferred "safe direction" is.

I've worked at two stores and helped a friend out a third, and this is one of the most common mistakes that customers make. They'll often look around the store, pick the area where there's no people, then point the gun. But this often ends up being towards the front door, out the front window, or at the far end of the store where the back office is. I can tell you that our owner's wife hates it when she comes around the corner from the back office to see a gun pointed at her head. And customers don't like walking in the front door to see someone aiming a gun at them.

To fix this problem we do what a lot of stores do: we have several targets placed along the top of the wall behind the counter with signs saying "please aim all firearms here", this way everyone's pointing guns in the same direction and nobody's going to walk around a corner to find a gun pointed at them.

Even then, it's amazing how often we have to point out the targets and ask customers to aim at them and not at the front door or at the door to the range entrance. Remember, just because there aren't any people there at that moment, that doesn't mean it's a safe direction. So just ask if you're not sure where to aim the gun.

 

[TomJ]

If your schedule allows, try to go to a gun store during off hours, often mid morning or mid afternoon during the work week. They're more likely to spend time with you if there are few or no other customers in the store. If they're busy they may feel rushed and may not want to spend the time with you.

If you let us know your location, other members may be able to recommend a good gun shop.

Finally, when you narrow your choices down post that information here and ask for opinions on those guns. The odds are that some of us own whatever you're considering buying and can give you feedback regarding our likes and dislikes of those guns. I'm a relatively new member here, and can tell you from experience that other members will go out of their way to provide whatever help they can.

 

[love4god]

Something is not adding up here, .
The member's listing states they joined the forum in 2007 but are just now looking into buying a new gun?
Also, if they really took classes or watched DVDs since 2007, wouldn't they learn safe gun handling or proper methods? By 2015?

Some of these posts & content seem a bit fishy lately....

I actually joined in 2k7 and was interested in getting into shooting. I lived in NJ at the time and had a hard time getting started, getting a permit, etc.. I actually gave up.

We moved to NC last August and things are a bit easier here. I took my wife to a range on a date with a groupon several months ago and we really enjoyed it. So we've done it a few times now and I went to a CCP class about two months ago and got my permit last week.

I can understand the confusion but it's all on the up and up. Not sure what my angle would be anyway asking for help with gun etiquette?

 

[Ed Ames]

Ed Ames,

What did the OP say he wanted his first gun for?

It was not specified in the first post, and anyway he/she's a noob so probably doesn't know. Therefore it is best to assume "any lawful purpose".

By the way, have you noticed that non-hunters are becoming the MAJORITY of gun buyers?

That's me. I don't hunt, but I do buy guns.

My first choice would be a 9m.m. loaded with +P for self defense, but I have carried a gun as an LEO for 24 years. Are you really going to recommend a semi-auto to someone with LITTLE TO NO EXPERIENCE? Really?

Absolutely. It takes very little time to become proficient with a modern semi-auto. Glock, Springfield, CZ, SIG, S&W, Walther, and others make pistols that would be appropriate.

If you want to recommend a single action to a new shooter for self defense, I hope you will admit your part in the disaster that will happen when an inexperienced shooter has an accidental discharge or misses the first shot and gets killed before they can get off a secondshot.

I hardly gave it a ringing endorsement, but frankly your hand wringing was overwrought. If that's your choice you'd better practice practice practice because you are using technology that has been obsolete for 130+ years...but it isn't hopeless or a death sentence.

There is a reason that NO POLICE AGENCY ISSUES SINGLE ACTION REVOLVERS. Maybe you missed that?

I don't see it as relevant. The OP isn't a cop.

Also, I did recommend the 130 grain "AIR FORCE" loads for practice. It is frequently what I use when I shoot my .38 Special. As for hunting, if you use this load, you should be ashamed.

Then don't use it for hunting. Not sure what your point is here.

Non expanding loads like the heavy hunting loads have NO PLACE in a self defense situation. NYPD tried them as a replacement for the lead round nose and found they worked no better.

I'm pretty sure I said that non-expanding rounds are not appropriate for self defense. I'm glad you agree.

ONCE AGAIN, WHERE DID THE OP MENTION HUNTING?

You seem very concerned about that.

About those wonderful .41, .44 and .45 Long Colt revolvers. HAVE YOU EVER CARRIED ONE CONCEALED.

Of course.

I have an IWB holster for my .454 Casul revolver. It is about the same as carrying a double stack 1911 but with fewer rounds.

I have also concealed a S&W Governor, a NAA Pug (with folding grip), a 4" S&W m10, and a variety of more appropriate (semi-auto) guns.

They are big for a reason and with the price of big bore ammo at @$45.00 to $50.00 for a 50 round box, I think it is again, a poor choice for a house gun.

I mentioned the price thing. That's why you want a .22 as well.

OTOH Walmart sells practice ammo for the Governor for $90/250rd last I checked. Top shelf ammo is all absurd now, $1 per round for 9mm.

My S&W model 24 and 25, stay in the gun safe. If I want a hard hitter and pass on my BERETTA 92 or 96 or GLOCK or SIG, I will use a .357 magnum. At least if I can find ammo!

Yeah I can't see recommending .357 for a new shooter today. It is too much and not enough all at once. You have one semi-auto choice and that's an expensive novelty. You would be better served with a 9mm or .40, even if you insisted on a revolver.

But that is personal bias/opinion. I have never really "got" the .357, and don't own one.

The model 24, a six inch and 25, a 4 inch make a good hunting or hiking gun, but no one mentioned hunting!

You were welcome to mention hiking or hunting. Both are lawful.

 

[love4god]

What does "NON-EXPANDING round like the full metal jacket" mean?

Reading every one of these responses, I really appreciate all the great info. Will also be spending some time reading over a lot of the stuff on the conered cat site. I read some if it before when I first went to the rage, someone had suggested it. Good stuff.

 

[Ed Ames]

What does "NON-EXPANDING round like the full metal jacket" mean?

Reading every one of these responses, I really appreciate all the great info. Will also be spending some time reading over a lot of the stuff on the conered cat site. I read some if it before when I first went to the rage, someone had suggested it. Good stuff.

Some ammo is designed to expand when it hits a target (e.g. an animal or human body), increasing the effectiveness of the round by opening a larger wound channel. Google "hollowpoint" for many examples.

Other ammo is designed to hold together and not expand. E.g. military ammo is typically of this latter type, as is most inexpensive practice ammo and some ammo designed for dangerous predators that have very heavy skulls that are difficult to penetrate. This ammo serves an important purpose (mainly you can buy more and practice more per dollar) but it isn't what you want for most "real-world" uses. "FMJ" or full metal jacket is the least-expanding type of ammo.

You can find pictures of each type of round after it has hit a target. The FMJ will look like you could almost load it again. Good hollowpoint ammo will open up like a flower.

 

[love4god]

To answer a couple questions.

Getting a gun for both home defense and because shooting is so much fun. I also want my kids to grow up knowing how guns work and feel comfortable around them, they were never a part of my life growing up. I've already brought my 13 and 15yo boys to the range, my 9yo daughter is next in a couple weeks.

I'd like to start hunting but probably with a rifle/shotgun. I think I'm going to have to meet someone to help me get into that though. Seems like a tough thing to do from just internet information and books. I'd really like to start hunting at some point soon but it doesn't have much bearing on this first handgun purchase.

I live in Western NC, south of Asheville near Hendersonville.

I am looking at 9mm semi-automatics. We're novices and 9mm is both cheap and easier to shoot (recoil) but still large enough for self defense with the right rounds. At least that's my understanding from reading. I've actually never shot anything but a 9mm so far but that's ok for now.

The guns I've shot so far...
Glock 17 (and I think the 19)
Springfield XDM (my favorite so far)
Sig P229
H&K VP9
An older 1911 at my gun class. I think he said it was a Taurus but I'm not positive.

I would still like to try M&P Shield, CZ 75 and P09, Springfield XDS, Walther PP?, Beretta PX4, and one of the Taurus 9mm's.

I'd like to narrow it down to 2 or 3 guns and then shoot them side by side to see what I like. Then make a purchase.

 

[Ed Ames]

Sounds like you are on the right track. Handle as many as you can. Don't be afraid of being a pest at the gun counter asking to handle different - or even the same - guns. Make a short list and try those out.

You are right about hunting being a difficult area to self start. Still working on that myself.

Biggest tip I have left: Don't let yourself get trapped in analysis paralysis. The differences between the best guns today are very subjective and you will probably find your preferences change as you get further into shooting. Something that bothers you about a Glock today may seem like a feature tomorrow, or vice versa.

 

[golden]

Get training

Love4God,

The reason I recommend a revolver to a new shooter is the simple manuel of operation. You say you have shot semi automatics, but have you had training at clearing a jam or a misfeed?

This is important, you should always expect that a jam or misfeed can happen. If you do and you trained for clearing it, then a semi auto is fine.

A 9m.m. is perfectly adequate. My agency had good experience with it.

If you are going to teach your kids, then get some training yourself. If you learn a bad habit, then you may teach it to others and that can cause problems.
I still hear of LEO'S getting having accidental discharges when they transition to the GLOCK, so be careful. For concealed carry, the GLOCK 19 is easier to wear without printing.
I prefer the SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD Sub Compact for concealed carry. I find it very easy to shoot and quite accurate and I like the extra safety on the grip. The XDM 3.8 is similar, but has a longer barrel/slide which can give you extra velocity.
One nice feature of the compact XD and XDM models is that you get a short magazine to use when carrying concealed and a longer magazine with extra rounds to use as a reload or for a house gun.

The CZ 75 has one defect. The safety does not drop the hammer. You have to do it by hand which can cause an accidental discharge or carry the gun with the safety on which slows the operation. Why bother with a double action handgun if you cannot lower the hammer without pulling the trigger.
There is a CZ 75BD model with the safety changed to a de-cocker which safely lowers the hammer after you have loaded a round into the chamber, but you will have to look for it.

Size is a trade off. Usually the smaller a handgun, the harder it is to shoot. I passed on the S&W Shield and KAHR 9CW for that reason.

In my experience, the mid size 9m.m. pistols are the most versatile.

good luck,
Jim

 

[HexHead]

Don't worry so much about going to the range to try a bunch of different guns. You can't tell enough from firing a couple of mags or even a box of ammo with a gun you're unfamiliar with to make a smart decision.

Find the gun that fits your hand the best and is most comfortable when operating it's controls. Then spend the time and energy to learn how to shoot it. I can't think of a single time where my initial impression of a gun I've shot didn't change.

 

[Sam1911]

HexHead makes a very good point. And one that is a bit counter-intuitive even to experienced gun guys.

Holding a gun in a gun store and taking to the rental range and putting a box or two of ammo through it is sort of like a great first date. (Ahem...maybe second date...)

You're going to know that it is aesthetically pleasing to you, generally comfortable for you to hold, you can make the controls do what they're supposed to do, and that you're willing to start down the path to learning to live with that gun.

Your feelings will change over time, but your body and habits will be evolving, too, to make the best use of that gun. Things that might have felt a little awkward at first might turn out to be long-term annoyances, or you may grow to really, really like them and don't want to do it any other way.

When you buy a gun you don't have all the answers. You just know that you're well enough suited to start down the road together. And once you have experience with that one, you'll have a yardstick with which to measure the next one and the next you get to try out.

So say you decide you're happy enough with a Glock to put your money down. Great. Millions of users out there can tell you that it is a perfectly serviceable gun that you can shoot just fine with. It might not be the one you end up with "for life" but it will be a lot of fun and a great learning tool for now, and probably for several years to come. If your tastes mature and change over time, that's perfectly fine. You won't regret buying that first pistol.

 

[herrwalther]

A few people have given potentially bad advice about where to point the firearm: Don't pick your own safe direction, instead wait to point the gun anywhere until you know exactly where the store's preferred "safe direction" is.

Conservative estimate I have been in around 50 gun stores. None of them had targets on the walls for safe direction handling. Pointing toward the ground (not at feet) is usually the safest bet to check sights. In most gun stores the only time I see someone aiming a weapon at a distant object is on a long gun, usually with a scope or red dot.

 

[Theohazard]

A few people have given potentially bad advice about where to point the firearm: Don't pick your own safe direction, instead wait to point the gun anywhere until you know exactly where the store's preferred "safe direction" is.

Conservative estimate I have been in around 50 gun stores. None of them had targets on the walls for safe direction handling. Pointing toward the ground (not at feet) is usually the safest bet to check sights. In most gun stores the only time I see someone aiming a weapon at a distant object is on a long gun, usually with a scope or red dot.

What's the harm in asking? Even if the store doesn't mind people aiming guns in random directions, it still doesn't hurt to ask where they want you to aim the gun; even if there are no targets, the store probably has a preferred direction they want everyone to point their guns.

Sure, the safest direction is usually at the floor, and that's the first place many people aim a gun when checking the sights or dry-firing. But I've worked about 40 to 50 hours a week in gun stores for a total of about three years, and a day hasn't gone by where at least one person hasn't turned around and pointed a gun across the store in a random direction, usually at the front door, out the front window, or at the range entrance. And most days it happens multiple times.

I understand that when people do this they're usually just trying to find the direction with the least amount of people, but -- like I pointed out in my previous post -- that's not necessarily the safest direction. Also, it tends to make everyone in the store feel better if everyone's pointing guns in the same direction and not a various places around the store.

 

[herrwalther]

What's the harm in asking? Even if the store doesn't mind people aiming guns in random directions, it still doesn't hurt to ask where they want you to aim the gun; even if there are no targets, the store probably has a preferred direction they want everyone to point their guns.

No harm in asking. Was just sharing my personal anecdotes of safe directions in stores. I asked in my first store in Vermont. The response was "Not at anyone." So largely dependent on store. That store did have a special half circle window above one wall with some trees outside. The owner always recommended using that window for checking out a scope, for handguns he didn't much care as long as it was safe.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Rule 1: Never point a weapon where "if it goes off," someone might be in the line of fire.
Now this gets interesting in buildings where walls may be nothing but gypsum, so ASK
the clerk.

Rule 2: Never cock a weapon, or cycle the action, or dry fire it unless you first ASK the clerk.

Rule 3: Tell the clerk this will be your first weapon, and ASK him(her) what your considerations
should be. He/She/It(these days) should then ask you what you intend to use it for.
(General plinking, home defense, concealed carry (eventually) are all reasonable answers.)

Rule 4: If a weapon doesn't feel right/natural in your hands, it isn't right for you at that time.
Now things may change over time, but at this current time, No.

There are only two things (short of gross safety/handling violations) that irritate gun store staff.
A. Those who know nothing, but act like they do...
B. Those (in 'A' above) whose mind is nevertheless made up, and will not reasonably listen when counsel is given.

This is good advice.