Gun Utopias?

[Dr_B]

Dr. Janet Rosenbaum (http://janetrosenbaum.org/) recently published an article in the Journal of Public Health Policy titled "Gun utopias? Firearm access and ownership in Israel and Switzerland." In the article, of which I have a PDF copy, she attacks the "claims" that those two countries serve as examples of nations with permissive firearms laws, but low crime rates. She concludes that gun ownership is actually rare in each country and laws governing possession and licensing of firearms are restrictive, contrary to what those in the USA who support gun ownership believe. Interestingly, she also notes in her conclusion that extensive gun control in each country does not prevent guns from being associated with violent deaths.

In my professional opinion as a social scientist, the article is a careful blend of statistics drawn from gun ownership rates and laws for both military and private purposes in each country. Military gun use and possession, either during service or off duty, does not belong in the same data set as frequencies of civilian gun ownership and use. I suspect in most countries the military functions like the US military does, in the sense that the military and not the individual decides when you have a gun and where you can take it. That is my view on that particular issue. Your opinion may differ.

I pose two questions:

1. Why does it matter what the gun laws are in Israel and Switzerland? If they are permissive, OK. If not, so what? I see it as a somewhat irrelevant issue. They are not America. They are different countries with different laws and different cultures.

2. She concludes, as I stated above, that extensive gun control does not prevent guns from being associated with violent deaths. Again, I am not sure that is an incredibly important statement. It seems to me that whenever a firearm is used in self-defense or in the course of a crime (e.g., a murder) it is always associated with a violent death. In other words, the firearm was there when it was used to end someone's life. Is that interesting or meaningful? It is a bit like saying car ownership is associated with speeding.

I am interested in comments regarding this article. I might be able to provide a copy or portions of it via email to those who are interested.

 

[mljdeckard]

1. The context in which they are relevant is in response to those who believe that people possessing guns causes violence. Some nations have many guns, some have very few. This does not indicate if or which nation will have more crime.

2. People who fear guns always try to erase the distinction between murder and justifiable homicide. This makes the number as high as possible, and removes the perceived justification for gun ownership.

I would rather live in Utah than Israel or Switzerland.

 

[baylorattorney]

Just look at Mexico.


Waste not want not.

 

[Dr_B]

#1 It does not matter what the gun laws are in Israel or Switzerland,IMO Completely irrelevant to our society and the unalienable right to keep and bear arms.

#2.Her logic is not interesting or meaningful to me. No two scenarios will ever be the same when a gun is introduced for whatever reason.

That's pretty much my thinking as well.

As for gun ownership leading to more violent crime, that's in the article somewhere too. Where I live in north Idaho, probably every other person has a gun in their truck and people aren't running around shooting each other.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Dr. Janet Rosenbaum ... recently published an article in the Journal of Public Health Policy...

Lots of leftist extremists believe the right to keep and bear arms ought to be turned over to self-styled "public health experts," who've already made it abundantly clear they see no reason to trust commoners with firearms.

 

[Owen]

Well the military situation in2/3rds of the male population between 19 and 34 , and brings his service rifle home with him. In addition leaders in mech infantry units often bring their vehicles home with them.

Very very different than the US situation.

 

[JustinJ]

1. Why does it matter what the gun laws are in Israel and Switzerland? If they are permissive, OK. If not, so what? I see it as a somewhat irrelevant issue. They are not America. They are different countries with different laws and different cultures.

I haven't had a chance to read the article but i fully agree that the impact of gun laws of one country are no indication of how they will impact another. I suppose this matters because our side constantly makes claims to the contrary, as in post #4. The other side does as well though. If unlimited gun availability guaranteed low crime rates Somalia would be the ideal retriment destination. If strict gun laws prevented crime Mexico would be. Both countries are rife with poverty, poor education, corruption, etc.

 

[Stophel]

I have not had time to read the article either, but I cannot imagine that Israel is much of a "gun permissive" state.... nor that they have a low rate of violent crime. The whole area is a battle zone...

Switzerland, on the other hand..

 

[bergmen]

A simple premise:

The possession of a firearm is not a causal factor in the commission of a gun related crime, it is supplemental and incidental to it.

It is specifically a matter of choice of the perpetrator to commit the crime, the firearm only being a tool to assist in facilitating the crime. Removing the gun from a murderous individual still leaves society with a murderous individual who can easily move to knives, baseball bats, claw hammers, machetes or any other inanimate object to threaten, kill or injure the victim.

JMHO

Dan

 

[Tim the student]

So, this year, or from 2011? At a glance, I don't think I can access it unless it was from 2011 or prior.

From what you are saying, there are some decent flaws in her methodology, and the application of her findings.

 

[Dr_B]

Here is a link to the full reference and abstract:

http://www.palgrave-journals.com/jphp/journal/v33/n1/abs/jphp201156a.html

 

[ShawnC]

Instead of making guns illegal, as antis want, would it not be more expansive and effective to just make murder and violent crime illegal? Surely if such laws were passed, then those activities would stop, right?

 

[Certaindeaf]

All utupias are but a dream.

 

[Jed Carter]

I suspect in most countries the military functions like the US military does, in the sense that the military and not the individual decides when you have a gun and where you can take it.

In Switzerland I think they are citizen soldiers, and take their weapons home with them, I do not know but suspect they do the same in Israel as well.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I'll take a read through that abstract.


I found The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies a very intersting read, since it specifically addresses the differences between Western Cultures, and specifically the United States.


The takeaway - Switzerland has a very different culture than the United States. Ethnocentric to the extreme. If you do not come from their ethnic culture, you do not have the same rights as citizens.

 

[mr.scott]

The honest to God truth of the matter isn't that guns cause violenc. Its that in any society with poor people, there is going to be violence. In America the poor that commit the most violence, happen to be the poor that ghetto thug gang rappers target their music and influence at because that group is largely under educated and easily manipulated. Guns aren't the problem, people are the problem.

 

[Dr T]

There is a wonderful little book entitled "How to Lie with Statistics". It was prepared as a reference on how pseudo-scientific writers (e.g. journalists, politicians, advertisers, public heath "experts") manipulate data to support a favored point of view.

A reading of this little book goes a long way in helping one interpret any article regarding gun use and ownership by comparing the figurative apples to the figurative oranges.

In my 30+ years of being (among other things) a professional mathematician and "explainer of what the data really means", in retrospect it seems that I have spent about 25% of my time debunking fallacious arguments...

 

[ThorinNNY]

Who was it who said," There a lies, there are Damn lies, then there are STATISTICS"?
Then too most news outlets today would report the old Fairy Tale Snow White and the
Seven Dwarves" with a screaming headline reading: SHOCKING SCANDAL OF BEAUTIFUL YOUNG MAIDEN KEPT AS SEX SLAVE BY SEVEN DEFORMED OLD MEN.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Military gun use and possession, either during service or off duty, does not belong in the same data set as frequencies of civilian gun ownership and use.

I've been saying this for years, and I've never even been to college.

 

[youngda9]

You can't compare crimes in other CULTURES and expect an apples to apples correlation.

Compare crime in this country amongst where the guns are, how the guns have increased, how crime has stayed the same or decreased where more people have and carry firearms. The sample size in this country is enough, and with the varying laws making things difficult enough already, to do a good study. Lott did this already.

Going overseas only muddies up the water.

Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics.

 

[bergmen]

I pose two questions:

1. Why does it matter what the gun laws are in Israel and Switzerland? If they are permissive, OK. If not, so what? I see it as a somewhat irrelevant issue. They are not America. They are different countries with different laws and different cultures.

2. She concludes, as I stated above, that extensive gun control does not prevent guns from being associated with violent deaths. Again, I am not sure that is an incredibly important statement. It seems to me that whenever a firearm is used in self-defense or in the course of a crime (e.g., a murder) it is always associated with a violent death. In other words, the firearm was there when it was used to end someone's life. Is that interesting or meaningful? It is a bit like saying car ownership is associated with speeding.

I am interested in comments regarding this article. I might be able to provide a copy or portions of it via email to those who are interested.

I have two positions that I find cut right to the heart of the gun control argument and the role of firearms used in crimes:

1) Gun control laws do not disway the lawless. Many responsible and law-abiding gun owners fear that gun control laws are indicators of the implicit mistrust of law-abiding citizens by the government since the lawless will not abide by them anyway.

2) The possession of a firearm is not a causal factor in the commission of a gun-related crime; it is supplemental and incidental to it.

Dan

 

[wacki]

From your post

Firearm access and ownership in Israel and Switzerland." In the article, of which I have a PDF copy, she attacks the "claims" that those two countries serve as examples of nations with permissive firearms laws, but low crime rates. She concludes that gun ownership is actually rare in each country and laws governing possession and licensing of firearms are restrictive, contrary to what those in the USA who support gun ownership believe

Has Dr. Rosenbaum ever been to Switzerland? I mean, they serve wine at the shooting ranges:

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/

If you walk around the valleys near Interlaken there are rifle targets behind peoples homes. Let's not forget some 200,000 people attend the annual Feldschiessen event.

Btw,you can keep military rifles at home:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12441834

and even the BBC says "Sport shooting is very popular in Switzerland". From wikipedia:

After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms"). Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters, and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.

Here is a private club (non-military) that should give you an idea of the popularity of recreational shooting.

http://www.bruenigindoor.ch/index.php?section=gallery&cid=10

I would kill for a facility that nice in america.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Required firearms ownership for members of a militia and unregulated ownership for civilians is very very VERY different. Just because a nation requires certain citizens to possess a military weapon as part of their service, does not mean that nation is friendly towards civilians buying and shooting what they want, when they want. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) both Switzerland and Israel frown on civilian ownership and concealed carry outside of military ownership and exercises.

 

[Dr_B]

I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) both Switzerland and Israel frown on civilian ownership and concealed carry outside of military ownership and exercises.

I think that is correct. However, firearms ownership is not only allowed, but many people have them in their home and probably have several of them. My sense is that anti-gun folks in the US believe simple ownership of guns is a direct causal factor for increased violence.

I recently read two other studies that were positive in nature. One study examined the priming effect of having a gun present. That is, will having a gun nearby increase the likelihood someone will behave aggressively? The results said yes, but it depended on the type of person. Makes sense to me. If you're a criminal, then having a weapon around might get you thinking. But if you're not a violent person, then it isn't a factor.

The other study examined levels of aggression among members of shooting associations and/or gun clubs. Those people were found to generally be less aggressive than the average person. Something like that anyway.

Most of the academic research on firearms is politically biased either anti- or pro-gun. People on both sides of the issue can distort statistics. But I think the non-biased studies out there generally paint a good picture of gun owners.

 

[Lucifer_Sam]

The reason Switzerland is mentioned is to support the argument that "guns cause crimes"

Person A "Guns cause crimes. When the UK banned guns crime went down."
Person B "Look at the crime rate in Switzerland. Everybody has a gun there..."
Person A "Aha! No, the gun crime rate is really high there. I just read a study that said so!"

Of course the English banning argument is hard to get to the bottom of since the people responsible for it put out the crime data. Interesting that they had to go and ban knives not long after.

I dont know enough about Israel to say what the point of that is. I'd assume the same.

This woman must have been really inventive with her statistics to make Switzerland seem remotely violent or dangerous...

But people like her want everyone to have to own a 30 year old bolt action rifle with a 2 round magazine that you have to get 20 permits for yearly. Thats what the founding fathers wanted b/c they only had hunting rifles and muskets back then. We wont have any crime at all after that...