Gun Utopias?

[CapnMac]

"Ownership" statistics are going to be flawed in Switzerland and Israel for the large number of "issued" weapons available. Shooting enthusiasts wanting to be skilled in non-issued weapons will represent some portion of the privately-owned weapons.

Comparing European nations to the US also has inherent flaws. Germany has about the same land area as Montana, and roughly twice the population of California.
(Germany--pop 81m, area 357K km²; MT--pop 998K, 380K km²; CA-pop 38m, 163K km²)

We in the US still do not have a very good handle on how Delaware differs from the Dakotas, or that Ohio and Oklahoma are also very different places--yet governed, nationally, as if they were the same. Shoot, Crockett County in Texas has a similar area to Delaware (2808mi² and 2490mi² respectively) yet both are very different places (population 4K versus 907K). [Trivia: The County Seat, Ozona, is the only incorporated city in Crockett County, and has 3/4 of the county's population residing therein.]

Which then gets us back to the other logical fallacy these studies oft commit--that the presence of a firearm is causal to firearms crimes. This can be a "blind spot" for many researchers, and creates the fallacy of arguing from the specific to the general. If this were good methodology, Detroit would be the speeding capital of the US, for the presence of so many automobiles.

 

[Sam Cade]

I have not had time to read the article either, but I cannot imagine that Israel is much of a "gun permissive" state.... nor that they have a low rate of violent crime.

FWIW, the US has more than twice the rate of intentional homicide as Israel.
Its a pretty mellow place for the most part. Lots of beaches. Pretty girls.


Private firearms ownership is pretty rare in Israel.

Lots of former servicemen own A, singular pistol, and can't legally get anything else. Since one of the prerequisites for non-settler firearms ownership is military service most of the population is forbidden from owning firearms.

Observant Jews can't hunt, and its not like there is anything TO hunt, so you don't have that driving the desire to own firearms.

They have in effect, no "gun-culture" at all.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Anybody on this board would be quite disappointed if they lived in Switzerland or Israel expecting similar gun liberty.

 

[JustinJ]

Libya is currently rife with guns but i wouldn't exactly call it a Utopia.

 

[wacki]

From original post...

She concludes that gun ownership is actually rare in each country and laws governing possession and licensing of firearms are restrictive, contrary to what those in the USA who support gun ownership believe.

I just pm'd a swiss citizen. Hopefully he will respond to this thread.


I don't get people in this thread. Although I'm not 100% familiar with Swiss gun laws,the National Academy of Sciences and the CDC have assessed pretty much every gun law imaginable in separate assessment reports. They concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to say they worked. You can interpret that any way you like. Some of the laws they flat out said didn't work.

As far as I'm concerned all the talk about permits and stuff are nonsense. I mean, how many criminals in the US even bother with permits even in states where they are required for ownership?

All that really matters is:

1) are you in the state of mind to commit a crime
2) do you have access to the tools you need while you are in that state of mind


Now back to the odd claim by Rosenbaum....

Do this Swiss have easy access to guns? That's the most pressing question. Although I don't have access to that particular journal, Dr_B says Rosenbaum claims guns are hard to come by in Switzerland.

Here are some links that indicate the contrary:


Glocks, CZ and Steyr pistols for sale. in geneva



Revolvers for sale in Geneva

This picture should say something:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

from:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Parliament_rejects_tougher_gun_laws.html?cid=9126536




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[wacki]

If someone has access.. can they send me a copy of that study? I'd like to read it.

 

[Dr_B]

PM me your email and I will send you a PDF file.

 

[Dr_B]

Well... the PDF file of this article that I had on my home PC has been deleted. I have a request in for a new copy through the library. I can still send the PDF if you would like to read it once it arrives.

 

[sigpro]

I think both Israel and Switzerland have fairly restrictive gun laws. Last I heard, both required you to have a permit to purchase any firearm. I think what misleads people is that both countries have large percentages of their populations involved with military reserve's, and both countries allow allow at least some of reservists to take there weapons home with them. Which makes good sense for both countries. However, I would not confuse this with "Gun Ownership".

 

[Dr_B]

I now have a PDF of the article once again.

 

[col_tapiocca]

Here in Switzerland we've quite liberty gun law in Europe. But not the free that most in the USA maybe think.

But they are some difference between private gun ownership and keeping a service rifle at home.

Hunting rifle and old Swiss military bolt action like K31 can be purchased without permit. For every semi auto rifles and all handguns we need a "purcha permit".
For full auto weapons we need an allowance/special permit from state police. The state police are commite to check you full auto (only full auto) guns at home of full auto weapon owner.

Service rifle and pistols that we get for military service is not regulated by gun law.
It's regulated by army service regulations. It's not allowed to keep military ammo like GP90 (Rifle Cardrige 90) at home. But it's easy to buy .223 rem which will work with the Stgw90....
After the service at swiss army you can buy the issued service rifle / pistol. 100 swiss francs for the rilfe and 30 swiss francs for the pistol. Rilfe will be converted to semi auto.

They are a lot guns around here in Switzerland but the are very little crime related with guns.

The problem with gun is not the gun it self. It's a problem of the society!

 

[nyrifleman]

In the article, of which I have a PDF copy, she attacks the "claims" that those two countries serve as examples of nations with permissive firearms laws, but low crime rates.

What a beautiful strawman!

Israel is NOT a gun-friendly country. It's incredibly difficult for a regular citizen to own a gun there. I have friends who live there and I'm very familiar with the situation. Israeli settlers on the West Bank getting issued guns for self-defense by the military is NOT the same thing as private gun ownerhsip.

Switzerland IS a gun-friendly country. It's not as free as most states in the US, but firearms are still pretty easy to get ahold of and there definitely exists a "gun culture". They have the third highest per-capita firearm ownership rate in the world -- and this does not consider the weapons that members of the military are issued.

This author is arguing "a Granny Smith and a Valencia Orange are two frequently cited examples of apples." They're not. The Valencia Orange is an orange.

 

[Norom]

Well In my eyes it comes down to this, a violent person will find any means of harming another person or being. That meaning they'll get a weapon they can obtain easily it being there's or another persons regardless. If there are guns they use a gun if there are knives they'll use the knife if there's a rock they use the rock. So my question is if we start going down the path of banning weapons because of a small minority of people who are violent how far will we go before we are trying to ban rocks.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well, of course it would help to read the article, which I haven't. The already mentioned The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy is great, and gives all the reasons why such cross-cultural "studies" give us only beer-drinking speculation, not science.

It should be noted that Switzerland is usually cited as a counter-example to antigunner claims that more restrictive gun laws lead to less violent societies. So this is a classic example of an antigunner, when shown her argument doesn't work, saying: "Yeah, but that example doesn't count--only the examples that support my thesis count!"

Also, it should be noted that when antigunners use the words "violent death," they mean mostly suicide in reference to Switzerland, while understanding that the implication is toward criminal violence (which is not an big factor in Switzerland at all).

I think both Israel and Switzerland have fairly restrictive gun laws.

What does "restrictive" mean? Compared to most European nations, Massachusetts has very lax gun laws; Swiss laws don't sound terribly restrictive from my perspective!