Gunfight failure analyses and corrective measures. (Point shooting video)

[Horsesense]

Gunfight failure analyses and corrective measures. (Point shooting video)

This is an odd title for a review of the training video of Matthew Temkin teaching Point Shooting, in Europe, but as I watched the video, it occurred to me that that was exactly what Point Shooting (instinctive target focused shooting) is. As opposed to methods that have been adapted from balloon busting competitions, point shooting was developed by a man, back in the thirties, who analyzed the static, target V's target, method that was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of cops and developed a way to "Shoot To Live".

You can read how I became interested in point shooting and how I came into possession of the video, in the thread Point shooting...4 hour syllabus http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=653767#post653767 .

As you can see, from the original thread, I gave this an honest try and followed his directions to the letter and it worked for me. After seeing him teach a class and witnessing the progress the students made I am confident that this method is the most practical tool any shooter can have in his belt. It's not the only tool and Matt would be the first to tell you that, BUT when the SHTF this is the skill that will keep you alive.

After seeing the video I realized that I was over emphasizing accuracy and under emphasizing mobility. Who would have thunk it… the accuracy, for the students, takes care of it's self when they concentrate on the target, grip and moving (I can't wait to get to the range). You have to see Matthew shoot, he makes other methods look clumsy, like a robot, when you see this mild-mannered looking guy move and shoot like water! The guy is smooth, fast, and accurate and he teaches others how to do the same.


I have never met Matthew and I have no personal agenda in my complementing his video/method, he seems to be a compassionate man who is only interested in seeing that the good guys go home at the end of the day and more importantly, he has a method that has been proven on the streets and battle field.


PS: I'm not an expert but I can see the logic in point shooting. Look at it and ask yourself one question "Is this more likely to work when I have a 55galin drum of adrenaline pumping in my vanes or is what I'm doing now going to be ok?"

 

[clubsoda22]

I point shoot quite well, never seen the video though.

 

[Soap]

Where can I order the video?

 

[Horsesense]

You could PM Matthew Temkin although I do not know if the videos are available. He offered me the video for free with a SASE, there have been difficulties and he has had to pay money out of pocket to get copies made.

Hopefully, with enough interest, he will decide to make a go of getting the video mass-produced. I have a box of things I want my 3 y/o to get on her 16th birthday, if anything were to ever happen to me, and a DVD of this training would be perfect.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I want to thank Horsesense for the kind words.
I have been teaching/researching/training/writing about the WW2 armed and unarmed combat systems for over 30 years now.
I published quite a few self defense articles from 1979 until 1985 in WARRIORS, BLACK BELT & KARATE ILLUSTRATED but now mainly teach the use of small arms along with weapon retention.
My three primary instructors were my dad, who was in the 4th Ranger BN, Col. Applegate and Carl Cestari.
It was Col. Applegate's hope to get his and Fairbairn's system of point shooting re-established as a complement to aimed fire and I am trying to honor his wishes.
The video that Horsense reviewed is a composite of three classes that I taught last May and August in Sweden and Poland.
It pretty much shows it all ( including use of the MP 5 submachine gun) and gives a visual example to my postings on Warriortalk, Glocktalk and other forums.
I am willing to send a copy of the tape to any and all for expenses, which are as follows,
$10.00 for the video store to copy it, $2.00 for the envelope and $2.00 for postage for a total of $14.00.
Be advised that video quality is only fair since they were filmed by a student for his own use in PAL and had to be converted to VHS, but they are good enough to see what is going on.
My e mail is [email protected]
PS if anyone in the NYC area has a tape copy machine who is willing to crank out some copies, then the cost will be reduced to about $6.00
( 1 tape cassette, envelope and postage)
My friend had one but it broke just in time for the Holidays.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Matthew: I was taught point shooting at the police academy (along with aimed fire) and believe that each has its application in the field. BTW, I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Col. Applegate at Trexpo once. I immediately bought his book, Kill or Get Killed and had him autograph it for me.

On the tape, can you convert it to DVD? I'm trying to get away from VHS.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Applegate felt the same as you do, that each has it's place.
His feelings was that two hand aimed fire should be treated as the exception rather than the rule.
In other words, Applegate felt that 80% of our practice should be one hand point shooting.
I am not sure if the tape quality would lend it to DVD.
Also I would have no idea how to do that.
I can barely program a VCR, much less fool around with DVDs.

 

[Horsesense]

Apples to oranges my friend.

I will elaborate more later but at this time I'll just say that what you're saying is what I use to think.


Perhaps it would help if you described what you picture in your mind when you say point shooting? It seems to me that you're picturing something completely different than what point shooting is.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Point shooting, at least as I was taught it, does not require a body index.
As I have stated ad nasuem, once the basic are learned ( which takes about an hour) the rest of the training is geared that wherever the shooter looks, that is where his bullet will strike.
As to everthing else that Round stated, I must heartily disagree.
But trying to explain this to a competition based shooter, as I suspect Round is, is a waste of time.
Then again, he is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Ironbarr]

Seems that every time point shooting comes up there's a contest. I asked about it a couple times... this one on TFL: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112707&highlight=point+shooting

Can we come to a place where what works well, train to make it "weller"? But have a Plan "B"?

-Andy

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Sounds good to me.
I think that I have also stated a zillion times that point shooting is a complement to aimed fire.
Not a replacement.
On Glocktalk last year I began a thread titled, The Myths Of Point Shooting, which respond to most of Rounds objections.

 

[zahc]

I think that for defensive purposes aimed fire is unecessary and worse.

How much paintball do you people play? It's obvious to me. I can't understand why, as far as tactics goes, point shooting is so ignored in the shooting world. I really can't.

 

[Ankeny]

But trying to explain this to a competition based shooter, as I suspect Round is, is a waste of time.

That's painting with a pretty wide painbrush. I am a competition based shooter and I understand the fundamentals of point shooting quite well, but I don't "point shoot".

This topic has come up on just about every forum and the wildest discussion I remember being involved in was on Brian Enos' Forum. I have had several debates with Middlebrooks on the topic and we both finally agreed that in the end, an accomplished gamer has the ability to shoot at CQB distances side by side with the best point shooters around.

Perhaps point shooting has a place with folks who just don't have the resources to expend in developing the techniques employed by Master and Grandmaster IPSC shooters. I don't need to point shoot because I have trained for many years, dry fire dailly, compete regularly, and send thousands of rounds down range each year.

If you subscribe to the old school dogma (as I do) as practiced by the best practical shooters on the planet like Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret, and so on, there will come a time in your pistol shooting development where you will finally "get it" and you will find yourself "in the zone" just driving the pistol through total awareness. You will call each and every shot (anyway that's the goal) at warp drive and your kinesthetic awareness of the relationship of the bore axis to the target face will be instantly confirmed by the required visual inputs. This will happen at blazingly fast speed while time seems to almost stand still. It's a very long road and most people will never travel down that road.

Do what works for you but don't crticize those who march to the beat of a different drummer.

 

[Ironbarr]

Ankeny...

Can we come to a place where what works well, train to make it "weller"? But have a Plan "B"?

Thank you, sir.


-Andy

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Until one had been in a combat situation, even with Sims, Airsoft or paintball, the need for point shooting will be very hard to understand.
And when one had been, the need , as Zahc will readily agree, becomes obvious.

 

[Balog]

Ankeny wrote:

If you subscribe to the old school dogma (as I do) as practiced by the best practical shooters on the planet like Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret,

Emphasis is mine.

Not attempting to insult anyone, but I've seen some the of gear used by those fellows and it ain't practical. While I'm sure their skills would be useful in a true defensive situation, the ability to run pre-defined courses with equipment as far from EDC as Nascar is from stockers wouldn't seem to qualify them for the position of best "practical" shooters. I'd think that title should go to the boys in the SAS, SEAL teams, or some of the other elite units who are often called upon to use their skills in a "practical" manner.

 

[Ankeny]

Balog:

No offense taken. While it is true IPSC shooters use race guns in Limited and Open divisions, we have other divisions as well. USPSA has two National competitions, the Race Gun Nationals and the Factory Gun Nationals. I made Master in Production Division using a CZ75 B out of a Fobus holster. I made Master in L10 with a Les Baer Premier II out of an Uncle Mike's holster and I shot my way into limited Master using the same Baer out of a Kytac holster. In revolver division I shot my way into Master with a Smith and Wesson 610 revolver that was damn near stock. Yes, I also have a .38 Super Open blaster with an optical sight.

Then there are the really great shooters. Robbie Leatham shoots a Springfield XD out of Kydex in Production and he shot a previous Nationals (and won) in L10 with a single stack Springfield. Sevigny shoots a pretty much stock Glock all the way around and he kicks ???. I shot the pistol Avery used to win the Limited 10 Nationals and it's just a good old single stack 1911 with a trigger pull suitable for carry. In his competition classes Avery uses a Kydex holster worn on the point of the hip.

Just so you know, by practical shooting I am talking IPSC, IDPA, etc. The goal is to get the hits on multiple targets as quickly as possible from every conceivable position, including on the move. That's what IPSC shooters do. Are we concerned with street survival tactics? Not when shooting a match, but many IPSC shooters to train in tactics as well as pistol craft. Our concern is DVC, accuracy, speed, power.

FWIW, some of the USPSA GM shooters are the most sought after trainers in the world. That's how they make their living. Who do they train? Elite law enforcement and military teams from around the globe. Other USPSA Grandmasters like Phil Strader are law enforcement officers, then there are the world class military shooters like Max Michel, Jr.

In discussions about pure gunhandling skill, you won't here defensive shooting trainers like Clint Smith, Gabe Suarez, or D.R. Middlebrooks talking trash about the IPSC greats, they know better.

 

[Balog]

Ankeny: never meant to "talk trash" as you put it. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was in any way demeaning the skills of the competitors you mentioned. I assure you I was not.

I made the assumption that when you referred to "practical" skills you were talking about ability in a RL fight. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry about that. I never meant to imply that the competitors derive their abilities solely from their trick gear, or that IPSC etc are useless for training. In fact, I'd like to compete in something like that myself. Although it's tough to find a shottie only combat match, and I dunna own anything else.

 

[7677]

Ankeny,
I'd hope that those guys can shoot with all of the time they spend on the range every day shooting. However, for the rest of us working class stiffs that don't have sponsors that support our shooting past time we have point shooting. Guys like Leatham can shoot and I take my hat off to them as they have my greatest respect. They are the top of their game and it takes a lot of work to get there.

A game is a game and there is more to surviving a gun battle then being a great shot. I discovered this in the Gulf War and later as a police officer. At FLETC we had a guy that was a great shot and had done well at IPSC he shot a perfect score every time we qualified. When we moved to the shoot houses, he didn't do so well and was hit several times. To his credit he was a quick learner and picked up the tactics quickly. There is nothing like some close quarter combat simunitions training within 7 yards. It breaks people of doing to things, standing still and attempting out draw and/or sight in on the enemy that is moving and shooting. I agree with Matt that point shooting is a complement to aimed fire not a replacement. Point shooting allows me shoot and move with a high degree of accuracy and speed. I have also watched Matt's tape and I recommend it to all of those who wish to learn how to point shoot as I could not have done it any better then he does on the tape. The only differences I saw between what Matt teaches on the tape and what I was taught, Matt uses and teaches a different ready stance (Fairburn) and I use two handed method more then he does.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Not for nothing, but I am a little bit tired of hearing about the exploits of these great competiton shooters and their assumed abilities in kill or be killed close combat.
Until they have been in actual gunfights I would not be too quick to assume that their competition expertise would actually cut the mustard when the "target' wants them dead and dosen't mind dying as long as they can take someone with them.
It reminds me of the myth of the deadly black belts and all of the mystical BS we were supposed to believe back in the Kung Fu craze of 1973.
In other words, don't fall for the "Master Chen" syndrome until Chen can back up what he claims.
Thanks for the nice words 7677.
Since the majority of my students are experienced shooters/police/SWAT I spend more time with one hand than with two, since they are usually already very good with 2 handed techniques.
To me one hand point shooting is for when one is taken by surprise and have to respond, and two hands is when you are stacking up for a room entry and you are going to him.

 

[Ankeny]

I never said a thing about IPSC shooters being killers. They simply have refined the art of getting multiple hits on multiple targets as quickly as possible. Gun handling skill is useless without tactics, a head on your shoulders, and a little bit of the warrior attitiude.

What I am talking about is shooting skills developed though vison and kinesthetic awareness vs. point shooting. I don't know about you guys but I am not a paid factory shooter but I can shoot a sub 5 second El Presidente with carry gear, I routinely do sub two second Bill Drills, I can draw my 1911, fire, reload, and fire again in under two seconds, and I don't point shoot. Please tell me why that a bad thing?

I am the first to recognize that those skills are not a prerequisite to surviving a deadly encounter, but for the life of me I don't understand why folks get their shorts all tied up in a knot when people who have developed those skills don't jump on an alternative bandwagon. To each his own.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

My shorts are not in an uproar.
It all boils down to just whom we are going to trust and whose advice we will follow.
I put my trust in the advice of combat veterans, and very little---if any-- in the gamesters.
Others are free to follow whomever they choose.
I will say one thing though...
Every combat vet who trained me always said the same thing.
And that is minset and attitude is way more important than technique.

 

[tetleyb]

Since I've made my own personal opinions about point shooting well known, I'm going to toss something in here.

There is this talk about "point shooting" and combat. Well, I've been in combat. REAL combat, with real weapons, being shot at by real automatic weapons. And I killed many of the people shooting at me; using my sights. Not Airsoft, not FX, not paint ball, but real weapons.

Personally, I was never taught to point shoot. And as far as I know, the United States Marine Corps doesn't teach people to point shoot now.

As far as "gamers" and "real" gunfighters go. That argument will continue ad naseum. I don't see how someone who can shoot fast and accurately, is a detraction to a "real" gunfighter.

I think gunsights were put on the gun for a reason...

 

[7677]

Matt,
Credit is given where credit is deserved and that was a good video that all non and point shooters should watch. You are also correct that most police training is with two hands and at typical police interview distances the use of one hand is the way to go.

one hand point shooting is for when one is taken by surprise and have to respond

Out of habit, at four yards and in and drawing from the holster I do use one handed point shooting. If the target is around 6 or 7 yards out I use a two handed hold. I find it hard at times describing something I do without thinking about. Matt, I'm sure as I was when I watched myself on video, that you saw yourself doing things out of habit that you never thought about before you saw yourself do it on the video.

Ankeny,
I used to worry about things like shooting a sub 5 second El Presidente with carry gear and routinely doing sub two second Bill Drills and drawing , fire, reload, and fire again in under two seconds. Those are things a good shooter need to master but we are talking about taking what you know to a new level. Those are benchmarks of the squared range. Combat and Simunitions training changed my thinking. Things you are taught to do on the squared range don't always translate over to real world close quarter combat. There is no faster learning curve then going against another human. After you have faced other human in simunitions training you quickly discover what works and what does it. I do not get my pants in a uproar I provide the knowledge/information and it is up to you to take it or leave it or disagree with it.

 

[Ankeny]

Matthew:

FWIW, I am a former LEO and I currently assist with firearms training for a couple of agencies. I have also "shot for blood", a long time ago. Gaming isn't my only interest.

In all honesty, I haven't seen your video. FWIW, at CQB distances I use a target focus and the relationship of the target face to the bore of the pistol is only seen peripherally if at all. Some "gamers" call it index, others call it kinesthetic awareness. I don't do the classic front sight, trigger press at all, it's too slow and falls apart under pressure. I only see what I need to see to make the shot and at times that ain't much. There is a darn good possibility that we employ similar techniques with different terminology.