Gunfight failure analyses and corrective measures. (Point shooting video)

[clubsoda22]

Use 10 inch pie plates only at all distances you practice at in lieu of the silhouette [ large targets ].

I have been trying forever to find a place where i can shoot plates in my area. Unfortunately, around me they do not exist.

Ack: Really, what i do is not looking through the sights, but beyond them to the point i want to hit. Sometimes i'll lower the gun a little bit so i have a clear view of the target. To get the most fastest most precise shots, that works the best for me.

 

[brownie0486]

clubsoda22 :

I meant use the paper plates you would use at cookouts to be able to throw them away.

I staple them to the target stand. Pack of 50 costs 2 dollars. I usually set up 4-6 plates at once on a target stand.

Brownie

 

[Ankeny]

clubsoda22:

Now we are getting on the same page. I often times use a target focus and only bring the gun up to a point where I am seeing the slide in my perhipheral vision. That's a "Type 2" focus as taught by Enos. Bringing the pistol up into the line of sight but looking "through the sights" means you are focusing beyond the sights to the target face. It's the same thing as what you do but the gun is higher. Ron Avery teaches to present the pistol with the slide horizontal so the target face is in alignment with the bore regardless of the height of the pistol. With the gun below the line of sight the front sight appears high, but as you raise the pistol you will see they are actually in alignment. Jerry Barnhart actually has the ability to split his focus between the end of the slide and the target face. He talks about it in his tape series.

Is there a remote possibility that shooting is shooting and we all do basically the same thing, but desribe it in different terms? If folks could get beyond the pissing match, we might find we have a whole lot more in common than we care to admit.

 

[7677]

Ankeny,
I think clubsoda22 and brownie0486 are doing a great job describing point shooting. I also think now you see point shooting what it is not the myth the gun rags would have you believe.

brownie0486,
The paper plate idea is excellent and within 7 yards in we use 3X5 cards taped or stapled to the target.

 

[clubsoda22]

i have used paper plates. I line them up and pop the three "bad guys" at seven yards as fast as i can with my bersa in a 1-2-3-3-2-1 order. It's a lot of fun and great practice for when the state deems me old enough to provide for my own defence. My buddy has this great outdoor range which is simply a 100 yard feild with a place to hang your targets at the end enfront of a big (50 ft) dirt hill. No one is EVER there so we can set out a bunch of IDPA targets and do a course. all points infront of 15 yards from where you hang the target have dirt hills on 3 sides. makes for great practice. Unfortunately, of the few rules there are, one of then is "no steel".

Anyway, my gunfighting style has been discribe as strange by a lot of people. I hold the gun with bent elbows. Have a semi bladed stance that comes from years of fencing oddly enough. My buddy said it was strange to watch. He said it looked a little like the CAR system except i move a lot differently (that fencing thing again) and don't cant the gun nearly as much. I also don't use that "aim with the weak eye" thing, obviously.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I am not getting into a pissing match, nor do I hold any grudges against any instructors.
What I will say is this....I am glad that Enos, Averi and others are finally teaching something else besides the aimed fire only mantra.
This is well and good, since for many years so many modern instructors were scoffing at the idea, or even at the need for intensive pratice with one handed techniques.
My only beef with them now is, quite frankly, they are making a very simple concept overly complicated.
And, to me, all of these terms such as, "hard focus/soft focus, aim by feel, type 1-5 focus, etc, is just newer terms to describe point shooting without having to mention the P word.
And with so much emotional baggage, prior badmouthing and outright lies about the concept, I do not blame them.
Perhaps the term Target Focus can be considered the standard label?
As to the gents on this thread who are trying to learn the concept on their own...Why not merely try keeping the pistol in your centerline, focus on the plate you want to hit and then just shoot it with no reference to your firearm whatsoever.
Try it from both line of sight ( which is NOT the same as eye level, BTW) and from below line of sight as well.
You will find that any attempt to look at the gun will blow the shot, or at least slow you down with no increase in accuracy.
I use two drills to prove this to students.....


1) Have a standard Q target with a pie plate stapled to the head area.
Fire two shots to the chest and then shift your focus to the pie plate.
Without any pause let off two shots into the pie plate.
It will not take long until your hand follows your eyes.

2) Is the zipper drill, which has been described previously by yours truely.

One more thing....Deaf Smith and I have a past from Glocktalk that will not be repeated here, at least on my part.
I will ignore him and a few others, no matter what.
Though I am very willing to discuss the hows and when of point shooting, I will leave the whys to others.
Finally...I have been contacted by many police officers/departments over the years for info, material and training.
Rest assured that I will never reveal them on this or any other forums, public or private, without permission.
My offer still stands to give free training to any and all LE agencies or military personnel. If this happens to be out of town, then all I ask is to be paid expenses.
To repeat, anyone who contacts me in private will have their privacy respected in return.
I can be reached at [email protected]

 

[brownie0486]

7677:

I like the 3x5 cards idea.

At the closer distances, I am prone to use the 3" round stickies in bright orange. Being about the same size, we are on the same page here.

The idea is to shoot smaller targets and gain speed with them. When you get to the bigger bad guys for real, it's a no brainer with all the area they present.

Even a head shot opportunity presents itself as large when it's only 10" but you regularly shoot at 3" targets at that distance.

Stay safe out there.

Brownie

 

[Ankeny]

My only beef with them now is, quite frankly, they are making a very simple concept overly complicated.

On more than one occasion Enos and Leatham have stated that hitting a target is simply a matter of lining the gun up and shooting the shot without disturbing the alignment. It really is just that simple.

Have a standard Q target with a pie plate stapled to the head area. Fire two shots to the chest and then shift your focus to the pie plate.
Without any pause let off two shots into the pie plate. It will not take long until your hand follows your eyes.

That sounds like a cool drill. What yardage do you do it at? I have done hundreds of Mozambique (failure) drills and I track progress each month. As you no doubt know the Mozambique Drill is two to the body, one to the head. The head on a metric IPSC target is considerably smaller than a paper plate. A Mozambique Drill at five yards with my Les Baer PII out of an Uncle Mike's holster breaks down as follows: Draw - .9 to 1.1 seconds (don't laugh I know that sucks), split to the second shot - .16-.20 seconds, transtition to that little bitty A box on the head- .24-.30 seconds. I rarely put all of those fastest individual components together in a single run for a time of 1.3 but I have seen Ron Avery do it 1.25 seconds.

Here's where we really part company:

You will find that any attempt to look at the gun will blow the shot, or at least slow you down with no increase in accuracy.

That statement is just false on so many levels. I suppose you guys can all point shoot that 6 inch upper zone faster than I can transition to the sights, but I'll stick with taking that extra .12 seconds to insure the hit while realizing a huge increase in accuracy.

This isn't a flame, but I need to question the proficiency level of some of the guys who post on this forum. When I rattled Internet sabers with D.R. Middlebrooks, I knew I was debating with the guru of point shooting and I knew he could thump me. When Rob Leatham called me on the carpet on Enos' Web site, I paid attention. When Matt Burkett gets on my butt I learn. Just out of curiosity, can any of you guys shoot?

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Try it at about 6 feet for starters, then a little less, then a little more.
Both static and then with movement.
.12 seconds is enough time to die.
Twice.
Yes I can shoot, but the only thing that should concern you is how fast and how well this system will enable you to shoot.
Now get the hell off the computer and SHOOT!!!!!

 

[7677]

brownie0486,
I agree with you about shooting smaller targets and gain speed with them. When you get to the bigger bad guys for real, it's a no brainer with all the area they present. Also if you think about it with head shots they are roughly a 3X5 area where round the will penetrate the skull where as most targets mark the whole head as 5 points.

Ankeny,
I would like to say that I don't hold anything against any IPSC or IDPA shooters. I started out shooting bullseye in the Army. However, the games will always have a certain artificial feel to them and the rules of these games do not translate to real world situations as in the game your enemy is accuracy and time and in the real world death is the outcome for placing second. I do not know how well a Gamer would do in a real life gun battle. I can say this that until you have been in one you just don't what it is like and how you will react. Let no forget about Audie Murphy he was a excellent shot and was rejected by everyone except the army and look how he turned out. To the point of Enos, I feel he goes into way too much detail to explain something that brownie explained in two sentences.

God didn't put sights on your finger, yet you can point at something instinctively with the index finger from about the time you are 2 years old. It's the natural ability of humans to be able to do this, so why did someone feel the need to put sights on handguns except to be able to aim at the longer distances?

Point shooting is not hard nor do you need the force to use it.

I also agree with Matt that .12 seconds is enough time to die. Twice! and if you don't think that Matt can't shoot check out his video.

I can shoot, I've shot expert every time I've have qualified and have the awards to prove it. I've also used and proved my ability to shoot in actual combat. Now could I beat Rob Leatham, Matt Burkett in a match I doubt it because shooting is only a small percentage of my job. However, I would not give a second thought in doing CQB siminutions training with any of them including Middlebrooks. I think that Middlebrooks would be a challanging becuse he uses and very simular style and would employ the same tactics I would use.

 

[Ankeny]

Gee guys, I thought making the transition from COM to a 6 by 6 inch circle in a quater of a second at three times the distance you are discussing was pretty good. It's a drill for crying out loud. Good grief. Anyhow, I'll have to practice some more.


Matt:

Thanks for the distances and sizes, now I have a frame of reference. Your drill, two to center of mass on the big pop bottle, then two to an upper zone the size of a paper plate, would take the IPSC masters that I compete with (who use Kydex and a pretty much stock 1911), somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 to 1.75 seconds from hands at sides, surrender, or interview position. I would be suprised if my friend Sam took more than about 1.4 seconds.

Grand Masters like Avery and Burkett can do it in under a second and a half with IDPA approved gear on demand--cold. I have seen Enos shoot a steel plate at three times your distance, then transition to a plate above the first one in .86 seconds. I value that ability and can not understand why you do not.

Where this discussion falls apart is I am talking about pure gunhandling skill, not tactics, not mindset, but pure gunhandling skills. Shooting is shooting and I don't confuse shooting with tactics. Who am I to listen to when it comes to pure pistolcraft and getting those hits quickly. World class shooters who can shoot on demand, or guys who can't perform anywhere near their level and never will?

FWIW, I am not just a gamer. Not that it matters, but when I was much younger I was in law enforcement. To this day I have a keen intertest in defensive shooting. I have been around the block. I was also in an officer involved shooting...and I am still here. Frankly, the war stories don't interest me because I have plenty of my own.