Duh_Bear
Member
Fish Springs said:
Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like a guy that likes to toot his own horn. But again, maybe it's just me.
Guns vs. Knives
- Thread starter Fish Springs
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Maybe it's just me, but it sounds to me like a guy that likes to toot his own horn. But again, maybe it's just me.
losangeles
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Fish Springs said:
I think it can be done depending on the situation. If an armed guy is walking down an alley and a determined, skilled knifer came out of nowhere, knife drawn, sure he can succeed. Especially if the armed guy has his weapon holstered.
However, if it's like a duel situation (all this is hypothetical anyway), it'll depend on the men involved. If it's Barney Fifer with the gun, then knifer wins, but your 1.25 seconds for two shots on target would trump the average man -- or Barney Fifer with a knife.
I remember in football that the faster guys were running 10-yard dashes (30 feet) at about 1.50 seconds, so even though this isn't a measured event, the faster guys are probably going at about 1.2 seconds for 7 yards (21 feet). I'd venture to say that the average guy or a big lineman would be going 1.75+ seconds in that distance, which would be enough time to get off your 2 rounds on target.
So it would depend on the men involved.
However, based on what I'm hearing, that martial arts guy sounds like he's just blowing a lot of hot air. If it's scenario #1 above, that's no big deal because the knifer would be expected to have the edge. If it's scenario #2 in a duel situation, it's the skill of each man. If he's confident he's so fast and that he's a such good finisher, how would he know about your response speed for a quick draw unless he knows your skills? You could very easily have better skills over 21 feet.
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One of my classes did the Tueller Drill from 21ft to 6 ft. The most important thing to do was move FIRST those who stood and tried to draw were stabbed. Another important variable was the direction of motion.
Its a pretty easy drill to do in a back yard. Get a Airsoft a roll of paper towels or a foam knife and 2 sets of goggles and go at it. A referee is a VERY good idea as well.
Rember I think its 30% of stabbings are lethal while 1o% of handgun shots are.
Its a pretty easy drill to do in a back yard. Get a Airsoft a roll of paper towels or a foam knife and 2 sets of goggles and go at it. A referee is a VERY good idea as well.
Rember I think its 30% of stabbings are lethal while 1o% of handgun shots are.
M-Rex
member
hso said:
It was a simple 'go for the kill' drill. A couple guys were able to get 'shots' off. Some didn't. Everyone got 'cut'.
Cosmoline
Member
bratch said:
Where are you getting that from? Even a 9x19 HP to the torso is a brutal laceration--far bloodier and more dangerous than a clean cut. Maybe a .32 or .25 ACP FMJ would have a 10% lethality, but even that makes me wonder.
The Tourist
member
Guys, this is just one of those fun little debates that is supposed to get the old juices flowing and be thought provoking. Let's face it, nobody is going to look down an entire magazine of modern hollowpoints just to say, "Hey, I was right."
You'll notice in these debates that the distance to be covered is 'reasonable.' If we started with the premise the knife guy had to cover was over 50 feet, we'd all bet on the gun.
If the distance was less than 10 feet the knife guy would inflict serious wounds before the gun cleared leather.
That is, if we don't booby-trap the debate with qualifiers guaranteed to tip the scales in our favor. For example, if the knife guy was Beaver Cleaver and the gun guy was Wyatt Earp.
The crux of this argument to me has always been the individual man and his motivation. If my life or that of a loved one hung in the balance, yes, I'd charge the gun with my Strider. What's to lose?
If this was a bar bet none of us would participate. Well, except for maybe P95Carry, who really needs the money and thinks we bikers can, and should, rise to any challenge.
So, if we can tilt the odds and try to amuse ourselves let's swing for the fences.
For the knife guy, let's pick Bruce Lee in his prime and give him a real-deal katana from the 1400's folded and welded so many times that a simple snap cut makes a noise only dogs can hear.
For the gun guy, let's choose John Wesley Hardin, when he's in a bad mood from a 'single malt' hang-over. Let him defend himself with a Colt 10mm Delta Elite, customized by Terry Tussey.
Now who wins at 21 feet?
You'll notice in these debates that the distance to be covered is 'reasonable.' If we started with the premise the knife guy had to cover was over 50 feet, we'd all bet on the gun.
If the distance was less than 10 feet the knife guy would inflict serious wounds before the gun cleared leather.
That is, if we don't booby-trap the debate with qualifiers guaranteed to tip the scales in our favor. For example, if the knife guy was Beaver Cleaver and the gun guy was Wyatt Earp.
The crux of this argument to me has always been the individual man and his motivation. If my life or that of a loved one hung in the balance, yes, I'd charge the gun with my Strider. What's to lose?
If this was a bar bet none of us would participate. Well, except for maybe P95Carry, who really needs the money and thinks we bikers can, and should, rise to any challenge.
So, if we can tilt the odds and try to amuse ourselves let's swing for the fences.
For the knife guy, let's pick Bruce Lee in his prime and give him a real-deal katana from the 1400's folded and welded so many times that a simple snap cut makes a noise only dogs can hear.
For the gun guy, let's choose John Wesley Hardin, when he's in a bad mood from a 'single malt' hang-over. Let him defend himself with a Colt 10mm Delta Elite, customized by Terry Tussey.
Now who wins at 21 feet?
azureflier said:Thanks. I owe that to my dad, who trained me to look around and scan like a pilot. Now I do it everywhere I go.
-flier
Yep, keep your head on a swivel in the cockpit or on the street. Criminals look for people that walk like a victim.
Also, if I saw somebody running towards me with a knife (or without one), I would be running in the opposite direction to open up distance and give me options.
I think gun vs. knives threads point out the real necessity for gun carriers to have some training that includes a FOF component before speculating based on square range abilities.
I've done the Tueller drill on quite a few occassions and it is possible to draw and shoot the oncoming opponent if you move with a reasonable pattern. Going straight back is not optimal has it is slow and trip prone. Moving to the side in a curving fashion throws off the opponent.
You can get rounds into the knife guy doing this. A good film to watch is Surviving Edged Weapons to get a feel for the problem.
It is not unsolvable unless your martial arts opponent is Goku as a SSJ3 from DragonBall Z.
I've done the Tueller drill on quite a few occassions and it is possible to draw and shoot the oncoming opponent if you move with a reasonable pattern. Going straight back is not optimal has it is slow and trip prone. Moving to the side in a curving fashion throws off the opponent.
You can get rounds into the knife guy doing this. A good film to watch is Surviving Edged Weapons to get a feel for the problem.
It is not unsolvable unless your martial arts opponent is Goku as a SSJ3 from DragonBall Z.
OP
OP
Fish Springs
Member
All,
Thank you for the information--this topic came up in the process of the instructor telling the class that an FBI group wanted to do a second knife defense training tape before the end of the year, so we got the lecture on the the knife as superior to gun. The instructor is a quick, knowledable martial arts instructor former stunt man, who seemed convinced he worked through this problem.
I was surprised at his view of FBI trainees and his confidence that no matter what the gun user did he was going to get there first.
What I did not sense in the instructor was any understanding of "awareness, distance, cover" (the things that go with avoiding a threat and using a handgun effectively). I did sense an unwillingness to consider the potentially effective layered defense found in having and knowing how to use a gun, knife, hand-to-hand.
A couple of times when the instructor crossed into my personal space, I stepped back/side threw my left hand out into his chest and drew one of his plastic guns. He "died".
Only when we stood, face to face at 7 feet, did it get uncomfortable as he is fast and I am overweight.
At this distance bringing the muzzle barely clear of my holster, left hand trust toward the attacking arm/side of chest and firing from the hip could I shoot and parry the knife thrust. As several of you observed I was not able to do this successfully every time. The drill actually worked better stepping back and pivoting to the side while bringing the muzzle just clear of the holster to fire at center of mass.
Stay aware and never let the attacker close the distance seems to be the best way to approach this. Either way my daughter and I have a new practice drill to work on. She is quick, likes to shoot and testing for a black belt next month--maybe we can get her to combine the disciplines effectively.
Best Regards,
FS
Thank you for the information--this topic came up in the process of the instructor telling the class that an FBI group wanted to do a second knife defense training tape before the end of the year, so we got the lecture on the the knife as superior to gun. The instructor is a quick, knowledable martial arts instructor former stunt man, who seemed convinced he worked through this problem.
I was surprised at his view of FBI trainees and his confidence that no matter what the gun user did he was going to get there first.
What I did not sense in the instructor was any understanding of "awareness, distance, cover" (the things that go with avoiding a threat and using a handgun effectively). I did sense an unwillingness to consider the potentially effective layered defense found in having and knowing how to use a gun, knife, hand-to-hand.
A couple of times when the instructor crossed into my personal space, I stepped back/side threw my left hand out into his chest and drew one of his plastic guns. He "died".
Only when we stood, face to face at 7 feet, did it get uncomfortable as he is fast and I am overweight.
At this distance bringing the muzzle barely clear of my holster, left hand trust toward the attacking arm/side of chest and firing from the hip could I shoot and parry the knife thrust. As several of you observed I was not able to do this successfully every time. The drill actually worked better stepping back and pivoting to the side while bringing the muzzle just clear of the holster to fire at center of mass.
Stay aware and never let the attacker close the distance seems to be the best way to approach this. Either way my daughter and I have a new practice drill to work on. She is quick, likes to shoot and testing for a black belt next month--maybe we can get her to combine the disciplines effectively.
Best Regards,
FS
I agree - drawing from concealment and getting off two shots in 1.25 seconds is hard to believe - but then I've seen some pretty amazing things done with firearms that I'd never have believed without actually seeing it so maybe.
BUT it definitely isn't normal to be able to draw from concealment and get off two shots in 1.25 seconds.
The key concept here is drawing from concealment - hard to do - especially if one isn't expecting to have to do it - hell - it's hard if one is. Takes me about 3 seconds just to draw my gun from concealment and that's with me saying GO!
I suppose they're some cat quick guys out there (some FBI guy from OK in the 30's and 40's comes to mind - don't remember his name) might could draw from concealment and get two shots off in 1.25 seconds but us normal folks ain'ta gonna do it in a life or death situation - not in this lifetime anyways. Maybe in practice but no way if it's the real deal.
This has already been touched on here, but yeah- makes a huge difference whether you're on an IDPA range with your speed rig or drawing from either an IWB tuckable under a shirt and a jacket or a level III duty holster.
I think the point of that stat is not that one cannot ever beat a knife wielding opponent within a certain range, but more that your average officer (who probably isn't the best shot) does NOT want to let a knife wielding opponent get within that distance without having a gun drawn and ready.
I think the point of that stat is not that one cannot ever beat a knife wielding opponent within a certain range, but more that your average officer (who probably isn't the best shot) does NOT want to let a knife wielding opponent get within that distance without having a gun drawn and ready.
waterhouse
Member
My roomates and I tried this out a couple years ago. They started from 21 feet (not very far when you actually measure it out) and started running at me with a plastic knife (part of a halloween pirate costume).
The first couple times it looked like football punt coverage when the first guy down on defense is running too fast and just runs right by a side-stepping receiver. They ran at me, I stepped to the side a little when the got close, and had plenty of time to draw and "shoot" as they missed with a wild wave.
Once they figured it out and slowed up a little as they got near me I didn't stand a chance. I had to draw with my right hand and block the knife with my left hand. I think in real life I would have lived and they wouldn't have, but I doubt I'd have much of a hand left. I tried moving back a couple times but they were much quicker since they were moving forward.
Anyhow, it's a fun drill to try with friends.
The first couple times it looked like football punt coverage when the first guy down on defense is running too fast and just runs right by a side-stepping receiver. They ran at me, I stepped to the side a little when the got close, and had plenty of time to draw and "shoot" as they missed with a wild wave.
Once they figured it out and slowed up a little as they got near me I didn't stand a chance. I had to draw with my right hand and block the knife with my left hand. I think in real life I would have lived and they wouldn't have, but I doubt I'd have much of a hand left. I tried moving back a couple times but they were much quicker since they were moving forward.
Anyhow, it's a fun drill to try with friends.
Code:
The drill actually worked better stepping back and pivoting to the side while bringing the muzzle just clear of the holster to fire at center of mass.Good for you FS! You're dead on with this approach. You can take a cut to the arm and hand and survive and shoot the attacker off of you if you use this technique. Don't stop pulling the trigger until the attacker is on the ground and you have moved further away so that you can have time to react if they pop up again (which has occured when police have shot a knife weilding attacker). Keep in mind that even with this training and with awareness the "OH CRAP!" delay can occur when you realize that you are being attacked. If you get that arm up and your strong side back and take a small side step to get off line of the knife weilders charge you can make up that time and survive.
mr.trooper
Member
lets see him try that on an alerted opponent with a revolver.
A smart wheel-gunner will have the hammer cocked into single action mode before its 1/2 way on target. This gives him a hair triger reuquiring no time or effort whatsoever to pull. The Kung-Foo master dies where he stands.
A smart wheel-gunner will have the hammer cocked into single action mode before its 1/2 way on target. This gives him a hair triger reuquiring no time or effort whatsoever to pull. The Kung-Foo master dies where he stands.
Vern Humphrey
Member
There are several "Ifs" here:
1. IF you are alert and draw your weapon before he starts his charge, you have a better chance. But if he's already moving before you start your draw -- and you have to do a Hackathorne Rip to get your gun out, you're toast.
2. IF you're facing an opponent who doesn't care, he can keep coming and will almost certainly close with you -- unless you can make a CNS shot.
3. IF you can execute perfect performance, you may escape with less than life-threatening injuries.
The real lesson is, a man with a knife at 21 feet is a deadly threat -- and IF you think he's going to charge you, better shoot first.
1. IF you are alert and draw your weapon before he starts his charge, you have a better chance. But if he's already moving before you start your draw -- and you have to do a Hackathorne Rip to get your gun out, you're toast.
2. IF you're facing an opponent who doesn't care, he can keep coming and will almost certainly close with you -- unless you can make a CNS shot.
3. IF you can execute perfect performance, you may escape with less than life-threatening injuries.
The real lesson is, a man with a knife at 21 feet is a deadly threat -- and IF you think he's going to charge you, better shoot first.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Well, one thing to keep in mind is that your reaction to a perceived threat will not be immediate. There are a number of sites on the Internet where you can measure your reaction speed to stimuli. It also appears that it takes longer to react based on how far away the muscle group is from the brain (practical aspect - hands react faster than feet).
Knowing that the stimulus is coming sometime in the next ten seconds and having my finger poised over the mouse button ready to go, I think the fastest I have ever responded is 0.12 seconds. In real life, I expect the response would be considerably slower unless you had already identified the person as a potential threat and were on guard.
A 1.25 second time for two shots at seven yards from concealment would be pretty impressive. The same two shots fired at three yards from a "speed rock" style close retention and an open holster with no concealment would be well within the capability of even a novice shooter with a little practice.
While a 1.25 second draw is probably a full second faster than I could do that drill from concealment, I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. Anybody who has seen the pictures of Jelly Bryce holding a silver dollar out at shoulder height, drop it and then drawing his gun and shooting the silver dollar before it passed his waist with the same hand he used to drop it knows that there are some people out there who are just gifted.
http://www.donrearic.com/twodeadlymen.html
Knowing that the stimulus is coming sometime in the next ten seconds and having my finger poised over the mouse button ready to go, I think the fastest I have ever responded is 0.12 seconds. In real life, I expect the response would be considerably slower unless you had already identified the person as a potential threat and were on guard.
A 1.25 second time for two shots at seven yards from concealment would be pretty impressive. The same two shots fired at three yards from a "speed rock" style close retention and an open holster with no concealment would be well within the capability of even a novice shooter with a little practice.
While a 1.25 second draw is probably a full second faster than I could do that drill from concealment, I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. Anybody who has seen the pictures of Jelly Bryce holding a silver dollar out at shoulder height, drop it and then drawing his gun and shooting the silver dollar before it passed his waist with the same hand he used to drop it knows that there are some people out there who are just gifted.
http://www.donrearic.com/twodeadlymen.html
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Pilot said:
How about some one with a rolled up newspaper walking in your direction but not staring at you. Ooops.
This happened to two cops over here a while ago. They wanted to check an African for drugs, and didn't take the rolled newspaper seriously. There was an old Mauser bayonett inside. Both cops died.
Sam
Member
Settle it.
Get hold of a simunition setup, give him the rubber knife and go at it.
Nothing works like a demonstration.
Sam
Get hold of a simunition setup, give him the rubber knife and go at it.
Nothing works like a demonstration.
Sam
I've played this game
No, you probably could not beat the attack to shoot this particularly fast fellow who is likely a black belt. But you have a gun, not a knife, guns win most knife fights. Also, a meth-head is not as skilled as the guy who practices this scenario everyday in his controlled dojo,. Plus, how does this guy know you have a gun....you told this one, the rest don't know, do they?
the mystery is the point. People today should be very careful, lot's of people are packing everywhere. I was a flaming freaking liberal, but I've seen society decay to the point that I now want pack a gun when I'm out of the normal daily routine. That's what the "would be" assailants need to know, there are more concealed permits than ever before. Everyone should be armed as an American citizen, it keeps the crooks and the government very careful in their work. Too bad the government has to know, they'll be visiting us someday, after all the easy target non gunowners are scooped up first.
jeepmor
No, you probably could not beat the attack to shoot this particularly fast fellow who is likely a black belt. But you have a gun, not a knife, guns win most knife fights. Also, a meth-head is not as skilled as the guy who practices this scenario everyday in his controlled dojo,. Plus, how does this guy know you have a gun....you told this one, the rest don't know, do they?
the mystery is the point. People today should be very careful, lot's of people are packing everywhere. I was a flaming freaking liberal, but I've seen society decay to the point that I now want pack a gun when I'm out of the normal daily routine. That's what the "would be" assailants need to know, there are more concealed permits than ever before. Everyone should be armed as an American citizen, it keeps the crooks and the government very careful in their work. Too bad the government has to know, they'll be visiting us someday, after all the easy target non gunowners are scooped up first.
jeepmor
Lupinus
Member
I'd say three options, none optimal but neither is the situation-
One- Learn to run....fast. Along with that how to get on aim fast. If you notice him running 21 feet away and turn and run even if he is faster it should buy you time to get the gun out turn and hit him. Good caliber with a good SD round even if you can't get on target with his heart if you learn how to sight fast enough you should be able to get it center of mass, even if it doesn't put him down completly a 9mm with hydrashocks I would say should trip him up enough to get a better second shot.
Two- Learn how to draw faster. Your draw times I would say are pretty darn good and 21 feet isn't that much. Or second option learn how to shoot from the hip. Optimal? No. But like above if you can get good enough at it to get it at least a belly shot or something center of mass it sould buy time enough to get in second shot. And I would say reasonably if you noticed them 21 feet away the distence won't be far by the time you get a round off. Getting a bullet center of mass in your average sized male from five or ten feet shouldn't be to hard. Agian- NOT optimal, but should buy you enough time if you can get good enough drawing and putting a bullet or two center off mass should be quick enough Id say.
Three- Get close quarters hand to hand combate training. Practice a move to be able to use your weak arm to take care of the knife and your strong arm to draw your gun. Wrestling around with someone when you have a gun is never a good idea, you dont want them getting it or it going off unintentionaly. But if you have no chance of running or even shooting from the hip might be your best option to let it go close quarters knock his arm off before he can stab you and get in a belly shot.
Point to all three the traditional stance you think of and assume at the range is going to be hard to get in the time it takes for someone in the discribed situation can get to you. I'd rather have a poorly placed shot in him that gives me time for a good follow up shot then no bullet in him at all and Im being stabbed without getting a round off...or we are wrestling and he gets my gun and shoots me. I'd say all three are good depending on exact place it happens. If say the hallway in your house you don't have somewhere to run, option two or three is the one to go with. An open street? Screw option three and go one or two. Garbage shooting from the hip? One or three depending you can run or not.
One- Learn to run....fast. Along with that how to get on aim fast. If you notice him running 21 feet away and turn and run even if he is faster it should buy you time to get the gun out turn and hit him. Good caliber with a good SD round even if you can't get on target with his heart if you learn how to sight fast enough you should be able to get it center of mass, even if it doesn't put him down completly a 9mm with hydrashocks I would say should trip him up enough to get a better second shot.
Two- Learn how to draw faster. Your draw times I would say are pretty darn good and 21 feet isn't that much. Or second option learn how to shoot from the hip. Optimal? No. But like above if you can get good enough at it to get it at least a belly shot or something center of mass it sould buy time enough to get in second shot. And I would say reasonably if you noticed them 21 feet away the distence won't be far by the time you get a round off. Getting a bullet center of mass in your average sized male from five or ten feet shouldn't be to hard. Agian- NOT optimal, but should buy you enough time if you can get good enough drawing and putting a bullet or two center off mass should be quick enough Id say.
Three- Get close quarters hand to hand combate training. Practice a move to be able to use your weak arm to take care of the knife and your strong arm to draw your gun. Wrestling around with someone when you have a gun is never a good idea, you dont want them getting it or it going off unintentionaly. But if you have no chance of running or even shooting from the hip might be your best option to let it go close quarters knock his arm off before he can stab you and get in a belly shot.
Point to all three the traditional stance you think of and assume at the range is going to be hard to get in the time it takes for someone in the discribed situation can get to you. I'd rather have a poorly placed shot in him that gives me time for a good follow up shot then no bullet in him at all and Im being stabbed without getting a round off...or we are wrestling and he gets my gun and shoots me. I'd say all three are good depending on exact place it happens. If say the hallway in your house you don't have somewhere to run, option two or three is the one to go with. An open street? Screw option three and go one or two. Garbage shooting from the hip? One or three depending you can run or not.
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