Gunsite 223 Lessons Learned

[UnknownSailor]

Instructors:
Pat Rogers
Bill Dreeland
Willie Sampson

Equipment Brought:

Rifles (at class start):

Primary

1. Bushmaster Dissipator A3 upper w/fluted barrel
2. ARMS SIR #59m
3. ARMS #40 BUIS
4. ARMS #22M68 Aimpoint mount
5. Aimpoint Comp ML2
6. Dieter CQD vertical foregrip
7. A2 fixed stock
8. YHM single point sling mount
9. Troy single point sling

Secondary

1. Bushmaster XM-15 E2S (flat top)
2. YHM 2 piece carbine length rail
3. YHM rear BUIS
4. LaRue EOTech mount
5. EOTech 552 holosight
6. A2 fixed stock
7. YHM single pint sling mount
8. Troy single point sling
9. Tango Down foregrip (purchased from pro shop after rifle switch)

Equipment:

• CQB solutions drop leg mag pouches (both 2 and 4 mag versions).
• Surefire 962 throw lever weapon light.
• LaBelle USGI 30 round magazines (16 ea.)
• LaRue Aimpoint mount (empty and not mounted to anything at class start).
• Dillon electronic ears (purchased at pro shop on day 1).

Ammo:
Winchester 3131A and PMC 55 grain mix.

223 Personal Lessons learned:

• #59 SIR/dissy combination was no good – too heavy (NOTE: was functionally OK, just too heavy to hold up at Ready for more than 20 seconds). Switched to secondary rifle, used it for rest of class.
• I stopped using my EOTech after only other one in class went down without explanation. Switched to Aimpoint from primary rifle in LaRue mount. My EOTech still functions, but not trustworthy.
• LUBE YOUR RIFLE!
• Aimpoint is combat accurate out to 300 meters. (4 MOA dot)
• Fill trigger guard gap. Your strong side “social†(middle) finger will appreciate it.
• SUNSCREEN – long pants/long sleeves are a good idea.
• A lightweight rifle is good.
• Electronic ears save time and aggravation while on line.
• Check fasteners often. Use Locktite.
• YHM rail accepted the Tango Down foregrip without issues. Was solid throughout class.
• 2 mag leg pouch not enough “on person†ammo for class. Only used 4 mag pouch. Concept worked for me, though. 2 mag pouch should be good for non-school uses (think 3 gun matches).
• Never used either BUIS, not even to confirm zeros.
• The Troy sling was nice. To “unsling†from the rifle, all I had to do was unclip the sling. The pad helped during the times the rifle was hanging from the sling. My neck appreciated it.
• I had no issues with the A2 length stock. Caveat: I am big, with long arms. Were I to wear body armor on a regular basis, I’m sure I would go with a shorter/collapsible stock.

Observed:

• 2nd generation H&K Steel magazines had issues feeding in positions other than vertical.
• BlackHawk 782 gear sucks. Eagle isn’t much better.
• “Match†triggers are too fragile. (The sole class example lasted ONE SHOT!)
• Red dot sight out on railed forend is not viable in every conceivable shooting position (think supine, urban prone), and adds weight out on the front of the rifle.
• Had one ACOG Reflex sight user. Functionally OK, but the dot was a hindrance on the long shots.
• Bring 15 or more magazines, and have a small bag to carry them in. This saves stuffing magazines during the day, and the bag saves running back and forth to the car during the day.
• While 250 is not required, the experience of working with your pistol is a big plus. (Presentations, tac loads, etc.)
• Lake City “big fireball†syndrome is confirmed (like it needed to be, but I’d never seen a ball of fire that big before, so I took note of it).
• Solo house clearing with a pistol sucks, but it’s worse with a carbine.
• Class used KAC RAS or RAS II/LaRue railed forends, with my YHM/SIR and one other one (Surefire?) the oddballs. One student used the stock handguards. Who also happened to win the shoot-off.
• Pat Rogers is a great storyteller, and has a joke for every occasion (dare I say inexhaustible supply?). Oh, and an excellent instructor, to boot.

I had lots of fun, shot lots of ammo, learned a lot, and got burned to a crisp. What more could a person ask for?

 

[Maddock]

Thanks for the report.
Did anyone go through with iron sights only? How did they compare with the electronic/glass sights?

 

[Damon]

I did not attend this class, but I have attended carbine classes with iron sights only. They still work. I use an Aimpoint now. The big difference is with irons, I have one eye shut, with the Aimpoint, I have both eyes open. I like that much better.

Good report Unknownsailor.

 

[444]

When I took 223 about two years ago, there were quite a few people using iron sights only. They work, but not well. I overheard a couple people talking to each other the morning of the second day: "We can't possibly make those shots as fast as the guys using optics". After the night shoot, I don't think anyone planned on continuing to use iron sights.

Heavy rifle: in these classes, you suffer. I didn't have a real heavy rifle and I still suffered. These classes are way more physical than plinking at home.
Aimpoint: I found the Aimpoint with the 4moa dot to be plenty accurate for anything done in that course. We shot at pepper poppers at 400 yards from the tower and I was able to hit them more often than not.
I didn't use a gapper and my finger was sore, but I figured I wouldn't be shooting this much very often.
Electronic hearing protectors are almost a must. They are so much nicer.
I have taken carbine classes at two different schools and echo what the Unknown Sailor says about having enough ammo on the line with you. At Gunsite, having as much ammo as you can possibly carry is a very good thing. You get to shoot more and spend more time on the line instead of back in the shack loading mags. I took over 50 magazines with me to 223 and carried at least 6, 30 round mags with me to the line. I also found the LULA to be invaluable. I "discovered" it at my 223 class and bought one at the pro shop.
In my class, the only guy with a "match" trigger had his fail on the morning of the second day. I find it amazing that people on-line would rather listen to other people on-line rather than someone like Pat Rogers who does this for a living.
We had a couple guys using Trijjicon ACOG sights and they worked well. I tried one of them at night and ended up buying one for one of my rifles. I didn't replace my Aimpoint with one, but would love to take 223 again with the ACOG and see how it works out.
Pat didn't teach my 223 class, but I had him and Louis Awerbuck for my 556 class. I would pay the price of the class just to listen to Pat's stories. I absolutely loved these classes at Gunsite. I wish I had the time and money to take one every couple months. Since 223 I have taken 556, 250, and 260 (?? basic shotgun).

 

[El Tejon]

Unknown, glad you had a great time. Isn't it strange that the more you shoot your gear (especially the "latest and greatest") the less you trust it?

How's Pat? Does he have any enthusiasm for life left?

 

[Pat_Rogers]

The latest and greatest is only viable within the context of efficiency.
If it is innefficient, it is useless.
The gun needs to work.
All of mine say Colt.
A carbine needs good sights.
I strongly believe in optical sights, and of those the Aimpoint is by far the most reliable.
The Larue Mount is the best available.
Of the telescopes, the ACOG in any flavor is the heat. Again, with the Larue mount.
It needs a good sling.
My choice is The Wilderness Single Point (tm).
It needs a stock that is ergonomic. Of the fixed stocks, the Sully is way ahead of the pack.
Of the collabsible stocks, Magpul, VLTOR or Crane.
If you need a rail, the KAC and SurFire are GTG. For a FF rail, the Larue 7.0 is tops.
The best pistol grips/ VFG are TangoDown.
BUIS are necessary. The KAC 300m, Troy Industries flip up, Larue or LMT Fixed sights are all very good.
It needs a light. Only SureFire has lights and a support system sufficiently capable for real work.
It needs good magazines. The US GI 30 rd mags are good, and better with the MagPul self leveling follower. Avoid offshore or aftermarket.

What a carbine doesn't need is a heavy barrel.
It especially doesn't need an aftermarket trigger. That is a kiss of death for a working gun, and absolutely, positively a Money Transfer Device and no more.
It doesn't need cheap, offshore or brand x of anything.
It doesn't need multiple optical sights.

I will base the above on my experience having walked around the block once or twice, in several countries, and with the full spectrum of end users- mil, cops, paramil and average earth people.
If i have slayed your particular dragon, i offer no apologies. These are my observations, based on my experience, and will stand by them.

More important that equipment is training. As LtCol Cooper has said, "Owning a gun no more means that you are armed than owning a violin means you are a musician".If you own a gun and actually believe that you can- without constant training- rise to the ocassion and defeat (insert your fav bad guy here) you probably shouldn't be operating heavy machinery.

I will add that Unknown Sailor should have advised to apply sun jizz on his ankles, as his high water trousers caused some exposure, and some very pink legs.

Good job Brother!

 

[UnknownSailor]

Pat:

I did say use sunscreen. In my particular case, my ankles weren't bothering me, and were burnt already, so I wasn't to concerned. They are a nice shade of brown, now.

Your comment about spray on sunscreen during class was duly noted, and will be utlilzed next time.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

I stand corrected!

Glad thay have turned brown- that pink was- shocking......

The spray on jizz is 100% better than the cream. Better coverage and so forth.

How was your return trip? Mine was poopoo. America Worst, full boat, pretty much like steerage class.
Yecch!

Nice review. You paid attention, and learned well.
I must have misplaced your MC award though....

 

[UnknownSailor]

Pat:

Return trip was fine. I hate driving, but with TSA goons, wadda ya gona do?

Next time, though, I'll fly.

Regarding your plane trip: I know what you mean. I did a full JAL 747 from Osaka to Frisco once. 14 hours of pure hell.

During "graduation" I was hoping you had misplaced my MC award. Though at that point, I wouldn't have minded very much.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

BlackHawk 782 gear sucks. Eagle isn?t much better.

which specific 782 gear was used that sucks?

 

[bill2]

match triggers?

what's wrong with match triggers? when I got my Armalite .223, it came with it (one of the last delivered to CA before they morphed into evil black illegal assault weapons). am I going to run into trouble? I have shot it in PPC, and on a range, and have not had any trouble. what's the scoop on this?

Pat:
* what's a BUIS?

* do the optical sights give you that much an advantage over iron sights? are they rugged enough to withstand being dropped/rained on/otherwise abused? what model of ACOG do you recommend?

* I don't know if anyone else has seen this, or maybe I'm just getting old (turned 50 last month), but when I was in the Army in the 70's and shot an M16 it never seemed to fail to feed as the Armalite does now. I used to just drip oil into it (yes I know too much oil attracts dirt and debris), and didn't have too much trouble. I use factory ammo, clean it after each time I shoot it, and have switched lubricants. I used to put some oil inside the bolt carrier group, but stopped that after someone pointed out that that heat was cooking the oil and causing it to not move freely like it should. I know it's a different method of ejecting and loading, but my HK USP .45 simply does not jam. Any words of wisdom on this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[YammyMonkey]

BUIS=BackUp Iron Sight. Lots of flip up's out there, some use a flip up front and rear, others just the rear and keep the stock front sight.

 

[UnknownSailor]

The 2 Guardsman had the blackhawk gear, and they both said it wasn't to good.

The mag pouches were setup to hold the mags perpindicular to the body, and were difficult to get to while prone.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Was it the blackhawk belt and suspenders setup or something else?

 

[UnknownSailor]

Heh, I suppose I could have said what kind of gear it was....

It was a chest harness, S.T.R.I.K.E. Commando Recon is what it looked like.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

aah.

chest rigs have that problem no matter what the make.

i use a TT rig, only put two magazines in each pouch, and orient them sideways.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Bill
There is no reason to have a match trigger on a carbine. SPR? Yes, but not a carbine.
They have a very finite life. After bad sights, bad mags, and no lube, the biggest problems are "match" triggers.
Perhaps, instead of asking "what's the scoop on this" you should be asking why you would want one....

Optical sights increase the certainty of a first round hit under any circumstance, and at any range within the envelope. Additionally they are subjectivel much faster.
The SOF and now the big Army have been using optical sights for a while now- the Son Tay Raiders used them in 1972.
The caveat here is that those sights i mentioned are sufficiently rugged and in the case of the Aimpoint, have sufficient battery life.I won't recommend a model of ACOG without knowing what you will use it for. That's like recommending a car over the errornet.
Other sights may or may not serve your purpose, and your requirements for a gun of this type may very well be different from mine.
Buy cheap, and suffer the consequences....

As for the Armalite, re- read my post. Giles Stocks comments mirror mine- "All of my guns say Colt".

Re lube. Lube is necessary. There is range lube and combat lube. You will shoot a lot more in a Gunsite class in a week than most will shoot in a lifetime.
I use Slip 2000, an aqueous based cleaner and lube.
No lube, no functioning. It's that simple.

50 is not old partner. I'm 58 going on 15.

The NMNG did not use the STRIKE, which is a blatant rip off of the issue Eagle MLCS.
Blackchicken is not good gear.

 

[bill2]

Hey Pat,

Thanks for the answers. In regards to the match trigger, I ordered a .223 from Armalite, and didn't ask for the match trigger.
When I got the rifle, one of the last delivered to CA before the ban went into effect (2001 I believe), it came with a match trigger.

I will be using the rifle for home defense, and PPC/3 gun matches. Does that help with selecting a model of ACOG, or Aimpoint?

I will try the Slip 2000 lubricant. I assume it's available in gunstores.

Good to know that 50 is not old.


Thanks for taking the time.

Bill

 

[buzz_knox]

Pat didn't teach my 223 class, but I had him and Louis Awerbuck for my 556 class.

Now that's a dream team. I've taken two rifle classes from Louis (I'm on the list for anything and everything he teaches) and fully intend to take one from Pat when his schedule allows.

To the extent my opinion means anything (and as if he needs the support), I fully agree with Pat on optical sights. My Aimpoint mount (ARMS) crapped out on my first course. I finished it with back up irons and was quite satisfied. In an on-line discussion, Pat remarked that although iron sights are fine, an Aimpoint is the way to go for fast shooting or night shooting. He is 100% correct. I had my mount loctited (a LaRue will be going on my new carbine as well as all future ones) and went with the Aimpoint as primary. The difference was amazing. My groups were looser but I was able to make shots from positions where I normally couldn't see the sights. Weak hand, strong hand, bunny hop (nothing like shooting from one foot), whatever, just put the dot on the target and press the trigger. Night shooting was the same. It came in real handy during the building clearance/car ambush drills. I was more concerned about not hitting my partner than I was so much about good hits on the target. But the large field of vision of the Aimpoint and the ease of using the dot made both goals achievable.

Pat, thanks again for the advice. You have more of an effect than you realize.

 

[444]

That is one of the cool things about taking classes at Gunsite. You hear about these people for years, then you sign up for a class and there they are in person. Louis also taught my shotgun class so I had him twice. I see Jeff Gonzales is now on The Firing Line, I had him as one of the instructors at 223 with Bill Murphy as rangemaster.

 

[Tim-L]

bill2,

Armalite chambers sometimes come pretty tight and could be causing your problems. You describe the issues as FTF, but without further details, this could mean anything.

Here is the 100% solution for your Armalite woes. Sell your Armalite upper receiver group, along with the match fire control group. Call Ken Elmore at Specialized Armament and order a Colt LE6920 upper receiver group, complete with Colt bolt group and charging handle. Ask for a fire control group: trigger, hammer, disconnector, and requisite springs and pins. Have a competent armorer make the installation.

Purchase and install one of the stocks Pat mentioned in his post. Install a buffer and buffer spring as necessary.

While your gun won't say Colt on the side, it will function as if it were. It is not cheap, but you will not be sorry.

Tim

 

[LaurenceM]

bill2,

I USED to have an Armalite match trigger (I'm told the trigger was similar to the Kreiger-Milazzo trigger) in my Bushmaster lower which failed during a class after about 100 rounds. Fortunately, I had another lower so I switched out the upper & kept moving on. One of the springs had a piece break off & it became lodged between the hammer & the disconnector causing the fire control parts to seize up.

My other lower had a trigger job & it functioned w/o any problems for the rest of the day. But since I wanted to have a more reliable gun, I purchased the Colt fire control parts for both lowers from SAW Sales. They are not cheap as TimL said. Although the lighter triggers were nice, I'd rather have the peace of mind of a reliable functioning trigger.

LaurenceM