Had an idea for an invention

[anothernewb]

I had an idea pop into mind today.

The idea is to make an auto powder dispenser that dumps direct into the case. Think of combining the RCBS chargemaster and a shell holder.

set your charge weight, plop in a primed case, pull out a charged case.

instead of a plate for the scale, you'd have a shell holder. After initial setup and calibration - An auto tare function when cases were swapped out would negate case to case variation. You'd need some form of powder funnel that the dispenser dumps into as well, and a way to adjust the height to account for different case lengths. maybe ultrasonic for the funnel as well to solve any possible bridging - but that might not even be an issue depending on the speed of the dispenser.

I've got a chargemaster, and while it's not a terrible deal to transfer powder and moving the funnel around the loading block - but why not combine them.

Thoughts? I think it would sell.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I think you should patent the idea before Tinker steals it.

 

[Crosshair]

You're describing a Lee Auto-Disk. I've used them for years.

 

[jmorris]

I think it would be great if every case weighed the same, they don’t. That would be a lot more scale zeroing than I like, to make it work. That said, the Chargemasters already have an auto zero feature to mask drift with ambient conditions.



I haven’t played with them enough to know where their auto zero “feature’s” threshold is though.

The Lyman pan/powder funnel is what I use




or just use a volume measure and drop it straight in the case.

 

[AJC1]

Will you make a drop tube version for compressed loads?

 

[LiveLife]

auto powder dispenser that dumps direct into the case

Thoughts?

You're describing a Lee Auto-Disk. I've used them for years.

And the Pro Auto Disk with elastomer wiper will meter small granule/flake powders to around/less than .1 gr weight variance.

Need to drop charges between holes? No problem ... With DIY $1 mod, can infinitely adjust charge drops - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/working-diy-micro-auto-disk.741988/

I think it would sell.

They sure did sell a lot.

 

[westernrover]

And the Pro Auto Disk with elastomer wiper will meter small granule/flake powders to around/less than .1 gr weight variance.

Have you actually measured that variance or are you just repeating their marketing claims?

I use a Harrell's pistol measure and I often get a string of charges of ball powder that are within 0.1 grain, but the SD on 50 drops shows that it is not as precise as a 0.1 grain variance claim would seem to suggest. Getting 3 drops within 0.1 grain is useless if I cannot get 50 because I will never know whether I even got 3 or 5 or I didn't, unless I measure them all. Now if the ES of 100 drops was 0.01 grain, then I would not bother to measure every one of my 20 or 50 charges. While a trickler may not be able to claim a lesser variance, a chargemaster or autotrickler at least shows what the actual result is for each and every charge.

 

[Crosshair]

Need to drop charges between holes? No problem ... With DIY $1 mod, can infinitely adjust charge drops - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/working-diy-micro-auto-disk.741988/

As much as I use my LAD, I never knew that existed. I guess I never had a need to throw charges that small.

 

[LiveLife]

Pro Auto Disk with elastomer wiper will meter small granule/flake powders to around/less than .1 gr weight variance.

Have you actually measured that variance or are you just repeating their marketing claims?

Yes, several times and have posted my measurements on various threads over the years.

Properly lubricating the wiper surface with graphite powder or ground No 2 pencil lead til black will enhance PAD consistency. With small granule/flake powders, consistency in charge weight spread can be less than .1 gr (And yes, I have several digital scales that can verify check weights down to .1 gr and down to .06 gr). With small granule powders like Sport Pistol, spread of dropped charge weights can be less than .05 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-alliant-sport-pistol.816514/page-5#post-10598431

".30 disk hole of Pro Auto Disk dropped 10 charges of Sport Pistol from 2.90 gr to 2.94 gr ... with most of charges being 2.92 gr to 2.94 gr"​

Based on comparison of powder measures done by LASC member, C-H 502 micrometer measure outperformed Redding and I bought both C-H/Redding measures (I use C-H 502 for rifle loads on Dillon 550) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure.761239/

Here are the LASC comparison SD numbers:

SD - CH4D / Redding / Harrell / B&M / RCBS / Lee / Hornady / Lyman 55

AA #9 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.000 - 0.032 - 0.000 - 0.043 - 0.037
I 4227 - 0.025 - 0.032 - 0.038 - 0.102 - 0.000 - 0.051 - 0.031 - 0.061
Unique - 0.145 - 0.127 - 0.150 - 0.100 - 0.129 - 0.142 - 0.139 - 0.185
I 4198 - 0.138 - 0.177 - 0.103 - 0.125 - 0.169 - 0.141 - 0.170 - 0.114
SR4759 - 0.128 - 0.099 - 0.151 - 0.127 - 0.146 - 0.157 - 0.135 - 0.205

Average - 0.087 - 0.087 - 0.088 - 0.091 - 0.095 - 0.098 - 0.104 - 0.120​

Here is one example of powder charge drop comparison numbers using W296/H110 ... 10 drops of powder charges were put back in the hopper to settle the powder before 10 consecutive drops were weighed:

C-H 502 micrometer:

1. 9.70 gr
2. 9.62 gr
3. 9.62 gr
4. 9.70 gr
5. 9.68 gr
6. 9.64 gr
7. 9.78 gr
8. 9.70 gr
9. 9.64 gr
10. 9.78 gr

Range - 0.16 gr


Redding micrometer:

1. 9.54 gr
2. 9.58 gr
3. 9.64 gr
4. 9.64 gr
5. 9.56 gr
6. 9.76 gr
7. 9.66 gr
8. 9.48 gr
9. 9.58 gr
10. 9.46 gr

Range - 0.30 gr


Lee Pro Auto Disk: (.61 cc disk hole)

1. 9.16 gr
2. 9.16 gr
3. 9.08 gr
4. 9.20 gr
5. 9.12 gr
6. 9.18 gr
7. 9.16 gr
8. 9.12 gr
9. 9.08 gr
10. 9.12 gr

Range - 0.12 gr


BTW, 10 drops from C-H 502 for reference on this linked thread and it metered small granule/flake powders with .12 gr spread and large granule/flake powders with .22-.24 gr spread with Unique being the largest. For smallest granule/flake powders like Bullseye/Sport Pistol (Sport Pistol granules are smaller than W231/HP-38), I got .08 gr spread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/

 

[Varminterror]

Prometheus over an autoindexing case rack. Done in two moves.

 

[mdi]

How would you account for the vaitions of weight of the cases. Would your tool weigh the powder seprately on a scale then dump the powder into the case automatically?

 

[westernrover]

Yes, several times and have posted my measurements on various threads over the years.

Sweet. I had a feeling you might have.

 

[lordpaxman]

instead of a plate for the scale, you'd have a shell holder. After initial setup and calibration - An auto tare function when cases were swapped out would negate case to case variation. You'd need some form of powder funnel that the dispenser dumps into as well, and a way to adjust the height to account for different case lengths.

All very interesting ideas, but I think I’d design it a bit differently. Actually more like a copy of other weigh and dump operations. Think about how some potato chips are bagged - they have hoppers that fill with prescribed weights and then dump into the bag. Some are volume based.

 

[desmobob]

I use a Lee Auto Drum on a powder-through case mouth expanding die on a turret press. Couldn't be much easier...

 

[CQB45ACP]

All very interesting ideas, but I think I’d design it a bit differently. Actually more like a copy of other weigh and dump operations. Think about how some potato chips are bagged - they have hoppers that fill with prescribed weights and then dump into the bag. Some are volume based.

Packed by weight not by volume. Some settling may occur during shipment.

One of my favorite poems.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I had an idea pop into mind today.

The idea is to make an auto powder dispenser that dumps direct into the case. Think of combining the RCBS chargemaster and a shell holder.

set your charge weight, plop in a primed case, pull out a charged case.

instead of a plate for the scale, you'd have a shell holder. After initial setup and calibration - An auto tare function when cases were swapped out would negate case to case variation. You'd need some form of powder funnel that the dispenser dumps into as well, and a way to adjust the height to account for different case lengths. maybe ultrasonic for the funnel as well to solve any possible bridging - but that might not even be an issue depending on the speed of the dispenser.

I've got a chargemaster, and while it's not a terrible deal to transfer powder and moving the funnel around the loading block - but why not combine them.

Thoughts? I think it would sell.

Interesting idea and it might sell but how many and for how much? But as said earlier, protect it now before @jmorris or @LiveLife build it.

 

[anothernewb]

How would you account for the vaitions of weight of the cases. Would your tool weigh the powder seprately on a scale then dump the powder into the case automatically?

nothing that complex would be needed. Once calibrated the scale would simply need to tare each case as they are added. negating case variation. charge weight would be metered right into the case.

 

[Varminterror]

nothing that complex would be needed. Once calibrated the scale would simply need to tare each case as they are added. negating case variation. charge weight would be metered right into the case.

This methodology would ensure that even if an overcharge occurs, it WOULD end up in the cartridge case, with whatever potential consequence that might have.

Far, far safer methodology to meter independently in a weigh hopper like the Prometheus, then allow dispense only when the target range, or target value, has been achieved.

 

[jmorris]

All very interesting ideas, but I think I’d design it a bit differently. Actually more like a copy of other weigh and dump operations. Think about how some potato chips are bagged - they have hoppers that fill with prescribed weights and then dump into the bag. Some are volume based.

I certainly wouldn’t be a proponent of using whatever frito-lay uses. This is how much an unopened 28.3 g bag I picked up the other day weighs.



I can feel a partial of a single chip in there…

 

[Varminterror]

I certainly wouldn’t be a proponent of using whatever frito-lay uses.

I spent a short time of my career designing "bag filling" equipment like that a few years ago - they work like the Prometheus powder dispenser, where weigh hoppers are filled until the weight is achieved, then drop their contents into the product packages. The speed and precision of this type of equipment are phenomenal...

But...

When the precision fails, the speed doesn't, and the precision is usually more likely to fail, and that "speed" keeps racing out of spec product down the line as fast as it can. Pretty surprising to see the bag get out to the public though - all of the systems I designed would have had 3 weight checks between filling and packaging, so it's REALLY hard to get underweight product out the door.

 

[jmorris]

Shocked me too, why I kept it.