Had to draw yesterday...

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ID_shooting

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I was over at a friends house yesterday, he lives in a bad part of town. I was walking on the street. I walk past a house where two guys are standing just around the corner of thier house in thier driveway. They are your typical early 20ish wannabe gang banger street guys, has on sideways, baggy clothes, shirts off, tats. In a mad rush thier pit/lab mix dog suddenly comes shooting out from between them right at me, all teeth, hair up on back, snarling and growling. The two guys just kind of chuckle as the look at thier dog running down the driveway. The dog clears the street, rounds the parked car and comes right at me. Dumb, I turned the other way, I guess I was thinking the dog would break off thinking it had scared me from whenever it was being defensive of, wrong, it kept snarling and barking agressively.

Now the two guys are staring at me standing on the street with thier dog still beeing agressive, I unholstered the P3AT, leveled it on the dog. Now the guys started calling thier dog back, came out and drug it back inside kicking it the whole time. They never did say one word to me. I just reholstered and kept walking. I waited for a while at my friends house to see if the cops were going to show up for some reson, but they never did so I went home.

Anything different besides not being in that neighborhood in the first place.
 
You should have notified the police or maybe animal control. To draw on someone, or something in this case, is a violation of the concealed part of concealed carry. That might be a difficult thing to explain if a witness saw you and not the dog and then phoned the police.

Naturally, the men on the porch aren't going to incriminate themselves by admitting their pitbull ran off the porch and into the street should your story be questioned.

Being the first to notify police, at least in my experience, sends the signal that you believe yourself to be justified in your actions, should those actions be reviewed later in a court of law.

I have been on the receiving end of an aggressive pitbull and there are few things scarier, however, if you don't report the incident, it could be perceived that you knew you were wrong and tried to hide it.
 
Personally, I think you did everything correctly.

The dog lovers and pitbull defenders are going to say you should have stood your ground and told the dog to halt, or climbed a tree, or jumped on a car, or something like that. For me, any dog who's going to run past its owners to charge a stranger who's clear across the street could be planning to do just about anything.

The guys with bottomless pockets will tell you to start carrying bear-strength OC spray. Since you're carrying a P3AT, I'm guessing you like to keep your gear minimal.

The tinfoil hat crowd will tell you that you should have called the cops, because two banger-typess with a dangerous animal are going to call them and report a crazy man brandishing a weapon. Alternatively, since they now know you're a gun owner and now what your car looks like, they're going to use their dog to track you to your home, wait for you to sleep/leave, and steal your preciouses.

Really, though, you didn't have to shoot, you got the idiots to call off their dog, and you didn't have to waste your afternoon getting yelled at by the police for doing the right thing.
 
Wow, I experienced a very similar event 2 weeks ago right in front of my own home. The new neighbor's dog got loose can came racing after our Chocolate Lab puppy.

Turns out they are "friends". How was I to know?! I did not draw, but I moved my hand to my Glock 19C...just in case. At that point my daughter hollered, "Dad...they're friends!" (My daughyter is very pro RKBA). Noone could see my firearm...it was under my baggy shirt.

It took about 3 minutes for the neighbor to walk out and get their dog. BTW, the dog stands about 30" at the back and must weigh 150 Lbs!!! I don't know what kind of dog it is, but it's a biggie. If it had growled, snarled or other, yes, I would have shot it. I also would have called the police, even for simply drawing.

Ergo, I do believe too that you should have notified the police.
 
And you were walking on the street in a bad part of town... why?

Very seldom can you draw a concealed weapon and get to breezily declare it 'no harm, no foul' because you didn't have to fire it. All too often someone is going to call the police at the sight of a citizen with a drawn gun and report whatever they thought they saw- if not the "aggrieved party", then some passerby.

And the first one to call the police usually gets the checkoff in the Victim block on the report form. People who don't call are apt to wind up in the Suspect block.

It's little bother to carry a 2-ounce can of Fox, or an ASP Key Defender or the like where it is legal to do so, bottomless pockets or no. And it IS a good idea to do so, if you're going to carry a gun. You need something else in your toolbox to broaden your options, not all situations you will encounter require lethal force or the threat of it.

lpl/nc
 
Lee:

I respectfully disagree. Many sprays take up to 20 or 30 seconds to fully react. We have 3 dogs, and I would hate like Hades ever to shoot a dog, but to opt for spray over a pistol for a Pitbull, no, I have to respectfully disagree. If I had been alone, different matter. But in my case I had my 13 year old daughter to defend if the dog had became mean.

JMHO.

Doc2005
 
Some dog owners think it's funny when their dogs front people off.It's viewed by law enforcement just like brandishing a weapon. Certainly a threat and justification for drawing a gun to protect yourself.First bite gets the first shot.Careful when protecting your animal from another dog though.Unless your sure your pet is really getting mauled,I'd wait and see what happens.A stout walking stick is always a good deterrent to a would be dog attack.
 
Pepper spraying aggressive dogs is for mailmen. My neighbors have a dog that is very aggressive although they say he just "appears" mean and is a nice dog. This dog has trapped my wife and kids in the truck before, has chased my wife back into the house and has once come after me. I have advised the neighbors that I will kill their dog the next time it comes after us in any manner and they better keep him locked up in the backyard. They are good country people and have told me they would understand if I had to shoot the dog. I told them I would rather let them handle that part. I have called the police and animal control but by then the dog has went back in through the fence and there was little they could do.
The last time the dog confronted me, I was on the side of the house rinsing out some paint brushes and he started in on me. I happen to keep a shovel leaning up against the house to pick up my own dog's poop. I grabbed the shovel and hit the dog so hard he was obviously woozy. I told the neighbors about it and they are very apologetic but haven't done anything about it.
Regardless, if I had the gun, the dog would have been dead. Lucky for the dog that I didn't want to get paint on the gun by accident.
 
Regardless, if I had the gun, the dog would have been dead. Lucky for the dog that I didn't want to get paint on the gun by accident.
RM Vivas in New York always has great deals on ex-police guns. I got an ex-NYPD S&W M&P for $190 earlier this year. A little paint would just cover the bare spots in the finish...
 
They are good country people and have told me they would understand if I had to shoot the dog.
If they're treating the aggressiveness of THEIR dog as some kind of act of nature beyond their control, they don't sound THAT "good" to me.

What it sounds like to me is that they know they've got a serious problem, but that THEY don't have the heart to do something about it. It seems to me that they're hoping YOU will be their deus ex machina solution to their vicious dog problem. If YOU are threatened enough, YOU will put the dog down and THEY won't have to. That strikes me as immature and selfish.

Get pictures of the dog on your property. You don't need $10,000 worth of camera equipment. A cheap digital camera or even a disposable film camera will do. Borrow or rent a video camera. You need to document VERY well. Send COPIES of the evidence to the police/animal control by registered mail. If bad things happen later, it's going to be tough for the authorities to come after you when you can prove that they wilfully refused to do their jobs.

Go to your neighbors. Tell them that you are NOT the animal control people and that it isn't your job to put down nuisance or dangerous dogs. Tell them that regardless of whether you have to shoot their dog, the next time it ventures onto your property, you're going to sue them for whatever causes of action a lawyer can think of. THAT will get their attention FAR more effectively than your threat to shoot a dog they may want to get rid of anyway.

I have the nagging suspicion that they're trying to lure you into shooting the dog so that they can sue YOU. Without contradictory evidence, they'll claim that the dog was gentle and that YOU "lured" the dog onto your property in order to shoot it.

If I'm wrong, you've annoyed people who don't care about your safety or convenience.

If you're wrong, you may end up with a family member seriously mauled or worse.

Weigh the operative factors and act appropriately.
 
I agree with others in that OC spray in hand makes a great deal of sense in that situation, and one reason I added OC. You could have called the police and called in about an agressive dog, but what they would have actually done about it depends on various factors I am sure.

Not trying to sound like a wise a%$, but to me, one big mistake was pulling a P3AT (.380) on a charging pitbull. I think most people do not appreciate how tough those animals are. I have seen at least two films of officers shooting a pitbull with a 9mm and a .40 and it has suprisingly little effects on the dog. If the dog had been intent on really attacking you, he would have taken chunks out of you before those .380 rnds had any effects, unless you had a very lucky shot.

Depending on the dog and depending on the shot placement, which is part skill and part luck, you might slow him down or you might piss him off.

Better effects will be had with strong OC and or things that make bigger boom...
 
I don't have a SINGLE relative in Chicago who DOESN'T live in a "bad" part of town. Are you saying I should never visit them?

Deanimator,

Nope. Just questioning the wisdom of WALKING in 'the bad part of town.'
======================

Doc2005,

I don't think I said anything earlier about carrying pepper spray for dogs alone. OC is just one more option that gives you a chance to do something besides dispensing bullets if you need to defend yourself. If your personal force continuum only goes from harsh words to bullets, you might be missing a step or two that could save you trouble in the long run- that's all I'm saying.

lpl/nc
 
LL, Boise is a bit different than other cities I guess. "bad part of town" has different meanings for different people. This particular area if not like SW KC or south El Paso, For that we have sections or Canyon County here locally and no, I don't go there unless forced for some odd reason. This area is mostly very low income, place to put foriegn refugees that relocate to Boise, crack houses, and open drug deals. Essentially, during the day, kids go around on bikes, people walk up and down the street and such, but at night things change and no, I don't go there at night. My friend lives there becuse he is a poor student and can't really afford any place else. He lives rent free across the street from a gun shop that closed due to deaths in the family and keeps an eye on things (Shapels for those currious) oddly enough, it is on Liberty Street.

Anyway, I was walking to another persons house over there to check on a crashed motorcycle I might get for free. It is only 1 block away from my friends place so why take a car. It was a very nice day for a walk. This is more of an allyway really, paved and two lanes wide, but houses on one side and the back of stores on the other. Directly across form a fire dept training building. I was in the middle of the street walking by, not on any sidewalk (there isn't any here).

As for not calling the cops. We just don't do that here. People see guns every day, no one calls them in unless shots are fired. It may be Boise, things aren't like they once were, but 99% of time, people accept guns and don't panic at the mere sight of them. Hence I can dirve around with an AK in my back window and nobody really cares.

I could have called, it would have been put on very low priority if responded too at all and maybe in 2 hours one might stop by. (not bashing our local LEO, they just have bigger things to worry about and limited officers)

The dog was not pure pit, lab/pit mix. Think 80 pound lab with a wide head, kinda ugly in my book, but due to all the negative press about pits and local laws trying to be passed, pit mixes are all the rage here right now with the "tough" crowd.

Anyway, not being defensive, just setting the stage a bit better.

Of, my choice of arms. Ya, .380 is a bit on the side and no, I don't usually carry a mid level option such a spray (I dont care to look like batman walking around LOL, lets see, flashlight, knife, gun, spray, asp, keys, cell phone, wallet, tac boots, ok, it is 100 degrees, how to fit all of this in a pair of shorts? hmmm, ok, just the phone, wallet and gun for today.)

LOL, not harping on ya, but I don't share harsh words with anyone, I let them call me what ever they want and I walk away. My wife and I could care less what you think of us, call her what ever you want, call me every dirty name in the book and we will just leave. If you get all riled up at just harsh words, I feel for you. There are too many real dangers out there to get a reaction for somone calling you names.

If it was a guy coming out acting all beligerant, I would have moved away, dogs don't give you that option as they move quite faster and have no reasoning ability.
 
...so why take a car.

Well, for one reason, to avoid what's loose on the street. 8^)


I could have called, it would have been put on very low priority if responded too at all and maybe in 2 hours one might stop by

Calling to report an incident doesn't mean you have to wait for a responding officer. You leave your contact info, if they want you they can find you. It isn't a question of starting an investigation, it's a question of getting on the record first- and as the good guy. But you know the town better than I, not trying to lecture just to point out some alternatives to think about.


If you get all riled up at just harsh words, I feel for you.

I appreciate the pity, and it is not misplaced, but you misunderstand my meaning. By 'continuum of force' I mean the tools and methodologies available to YOU in defending yourself through various levels of threat or force applied against you.

The usual continuum of force as applied by law enforcement agencoes (it varies from agency to agency, jurisdiction to jurisdiction) goes something like this:

verbal commands (soft words, harsh words)
use of hands (soft hands)
chemical agents
electronic restraints
hard hands, baton or other impact weapon
canine
less-than-lethal projectiles
deadly force

See http://www.cpso.pdx.edu/html/forcepolicy.htm#continuum for a REALLY detailed continuum from a university police department.

The same thought pattern is a useful tool for establishing your own options as an armed citizen. For example:

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/civilian-force-continuum.htm

CIVILIAN USE OF FORCE CONTINUUM
By Michael VanBlaricum

According to the National Rifle Associations’ Right to Carry 2004 Report, 64% of all the citizens of the United States of America live in one of 38 Right To Carry States (RTC). The majority of states within the U.S. have laws and statutes that give an individual the legal right to defend them-selves. Obviously there can be vast differences between the actual mechanics of the laws and statutes themselves between different states, but the filament of commonality between the states laws and statutes that seem to be present in each state is the “Reasonableness Standard”, also referred to as the “Reasonable Man Standard”, which in short is the legal standard to weigh the actions of an individual in a use of force issue. If the “normal” person on the street or jury would have acted within the same manner, given the information at hand, a person has met the “Reasonableness Standard”. Within the Law Enforcement Community, Police Agencies must have written guidelines, detailing the Agencies official “Use of Force Policy and Procedures”. Along with the official use of force policy, Agencies also have to implement and train their officers on the “Use of Force Continuum”. The Use of Force Continuum is a model which is a graphical representation of a police departments official use of force policy, detailing the progression of the use of force an officer is authorized to use, depending on a suspects behaviors and actions. Unlike the Law Enforcement Community, most civilians in States that have the right to carry, spend little, or no time talking about force options, but only on using deadly force and the circumstances surrounding its’ legal use (i.e. being a reluctant participant, immediate fear of death or great bodily harm, retreat not practical or available, no lesser force will do, preventing the commission of a felony in the actors place or abode, etc. . . .). I truly feel that a Civilian Use of Force Continuum is needed and mandatory to help civilians understand the realities of human conflicts along with possible alternatives to using “Deadly Force” and which “Less Lethal” force options are available to them.

Example of Use of Force Continuum


Most Use of Force Continuums have the following progressing levels:
1. Presence of the Defender/Officer.
2. Verbal commands.
3. Soft-hands (compliance & redirection techniques, display of non-lethal weapons).
4. Non-lethal weapons (OC spray, Electronic Restraint Device).
5. Hard hands & Impact Weapons
6. Deadly force

One important aspect of the “Use of Force Continuum” is that a person does not have to always enter at the same spot or the lowest option on the force continuum, but at the level that would be “reasonable” in which to respond to whichever threat they are confronted with.

Most of the times, conflicts can simply be resolved by an assertive and commanding “Presence”. Part of teaching self-defense to people, is instilling them with confidence and mindset to handle themselves emotionally and physically. Often we have heard criminals comment that they chose their victims, because of the passive-avoidance type of body language. By teaching student to always present an assertive presence we can begin to master the first stage of the “Use of Force Continuum”.

Usually the first two stages of the “Use of Force Continuum” go hand-in-hand. Presence coupled with strong verbal commands/negotiations, etc can often de-escalate a situation. Any and all self-defense training should include some type of scenario based training where students can master the art of presence and verbal commands to handle potential threatening situations. The verbal stage of the use of force continuum includes conversation and persuasion and then commands and ultimatums, such as stating to a would-be thug or assailant “hey, I don’t want any trouble, I am just going to leave”.

As we progress up the “Use of Force Continuum” so does the severity of our actions, which leads us to the third stage of the continuum Soft empty hands. Soft empty hands techniques encompass biophysical techniques that involve compliance, redirections or posturing/display of non-lethal weapons.

The Fourth Stage of the Use of Force Continuum is “Non-Lethal Weapons” such as Oleoresin Capsicum (Pepper Spray/O.C.) or Electronic Stunning Devices. As an Instructor, I have found that this is one of the areas most lacking in training amongst the civilian sector. In the United States, we may have 38 states with Right to Carry laws in effect, but not many people use less lethal weapons and technologies, or receive the appropriate training for the less-lethal tools they use and carry. Many people buy or carry O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum/Pepper Spray), but have never received training, or been exposed to the agent themselves with little or no understanding how O.C. works, the effects it will have on the attacker and possibly the victim if used incorrectly. Many people who are unfamiliar with O.C. have some type of magical belief that an attacker sprayed with pepper spray or O.C. will be immediately incapacitated, without realizing that around 10% of the people in the world will have little to no reaction to Oleoresin Capsicum; and even those people who are affected will have anywhere from 10 seconds to 2 minutes to continue to attack you.

The final stages of the “Use of Force Continuum” encompass Hard Empty Hand Techniques/Impact Weapons and then of course Using Deadly Force. Many Americans have taken karate classes or self-defense classes hoping this would protect them from harm or random acts of violence. Martial Arts is a wonderful place to start to learn empty hand techniques, but real world self-defense encompasses quick, easy to use and devastatingly effective techniques that a person can utilize in moments of high stress were they have lost all fine motor skills. Unfortunately, most martial artist themselves are unaware of the conditions and requirements concerning the legal use of force.

Each state that has RTC has legislation and statutes that regulate the legal use of deadly force, but rarely is there clear direction in what is allowed or permissible in less-lethal use of force cases.

By instructors and States adopting a “Use of Force Continuum” for civilians, we can provide alternatives to self-defense scenarios and situations and prepare citizens for the realities of violence and it’s consequences. By providing a graphical representation of what is allowed or not allowed in the civilian “Use of Force Continuum” we can provide a graphical representation of what is “reasonable” when using force to defend ourselves and what progressions or stages the “average” person progresses through in the course of defending themselves.

As a Law Enforcement and Civilian Instructor, I love the fact that a large majority of Americans live in states where they can exercise their rights to self-defense, while at the same time being very concerned that many people’s training in self-defense is an all or nothing approach, being trained only in the “use of deadly force” while having little or no exposure to less-lethal weapons training and force options. I feel through training and utilization of a “Civilian Use of Force Continuum” we can provide the CCW permit holder with options for use of force that they are currently unprepared for when deadly force is not legally an option, but some degree of force is.

About the Author: Michael Andrew Lord VanBlaricum is a Certified Law Enforcement Instructor, Published Author, Certified NRA Instructor, Master Black Belt Instructor in Hapkido Hoshinsul and Owner and Chief Instructor of LordVan Tactical LLC. To contact Michael or learn more about LordVan Tactical LLC self-defense philosophy or seminars visit www.lordvantactical.com or call 651-324-6854.

Hope this helps explain things,

lpl/nc
 
I've recently started carrying full time around my house when I'm out in the yard. The reason: neighbor's dog. He's charged and growled at me once and went after my wife once when she had our son in her arms. Neither time was I armed or the dog would have been dead. I've informed the owners of the dog of my concerns and my intent to defend myself or my family if their dog comes after us. I've also informed the local animal control Sargeant of the same. Since then I've not seen the dog in my backyard, but I'm still carrying just in case.
 
The dog lovers and pitbull defenders are going to say you should have stood your ground and told the dog to halt, or climbed a tree, or jumped on a car, or something like that.
Dog lover and pitbull defender here. Nope, I'm not going to say that. I think he handled it perfectly fine.

I know my lab/pitbull mutt is a scary looking bugger to most folks. If he gets loose and threats neighbors I expect he'll get shot, and I won't blame them in the least bit for my failure to keep him under control.
 
ID_SHOOTING - "He lives rent free across the street from a gun shop that closed due to deaths in the family and keeps an eye on things (Shapels for those currious) oddly enough, it is on Liberty Street."

Id_Shooting, I know exactly where you were and where your friend lives. I haven't the faintest idea how many times I was in Shapel's Gun Shop (and what a shame they finally closed!!).

On the subject of pulling a gun but not having to fire it, if it were I, I would have made a call to the Boise P.D. and reported the incident, immediately.

In that manner, IF, the guys who owned the dog called the police and reported (lied) that "some nutcase pulled a gun on us for no reason at all!," my call would have preceeded their call, with the "facts" already on record.

In my opinion, there is more to "self-protection" than just carrying a gun.

Best of luck.

FWIW.

L.W.
 
In a related incedent..I drew on my cat last night....he was "eyeballin' me":uhoh:
I'm pretty sure if he had thumbs,he'd be pointing a gun at me most of the time....:p
of course it would be a mouse gun......
 
So now I have a question please bear with me my neighbors have 3 dogs (the two are usually behaved and inside) but they have this golden retriever who is aggressive and they NEVER walk him with a leash so suffice to say when the woman takes the dog to work it runs around (BTW they have had animal control over there at least 2 times in unrelated dog bite,incidents) and it has charged me 2 times before running back, now what are my defense options as this is the front yard (in Michigan) on a suburban street? should I carry a defensive weapon?
 
I guess I was thinking the dog would break off thinking it had scared me from whenever it was being defensive of, wrong, it kept snarling and barking agressively.
Now the two guys are staring at me standing on the street with thier dog still beeing agressive, I unholstered the P3AT, leveled it on the dog. Now the guys started calling thier dog back, came out and drug it back inside kicking it the whole time.
I, too, believe you should have reported the incident. Protect your right to carry, and help get another aggressive animal off the street.

Beyond that, I want to point out that the dog in question is probably not a hunting dog, and probably does not watch Miami Vice re-runs on TV. He really had no idea what your gun was or that it could do him harm. Your KelTec P3AT may as well been a cell phone or a handkerchief.

The dog did not stop his approach because you drew your gun. He stopped his approach because of your body language and because he really did not want to fight you. He was only protecting his percieved territory. He wanted you to leave. If he had wanted to bite plugs out of your flesh, from your description of events, he could have.

FWIW, when an angered dog charges you, get your shirt off quickly. Stretch it out between your fists in front of you, dog height. Allow the dog to latch on to it, and do not let it go. The dog does not recognize the shirt is not you unless he is trained otherwise. Some dogs snap and then release and snap again, others tend to bite and pull. By pulling against the dog, you make the snapper into a puller. Allow him to snarl and growl, pull him to a place where you can escape, let him have your shirt and then escape trough a gate or door while he is trying to kill the shirt. Does this work? I was taught this technique by a K9 officer. It has worked twice for me.
 
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