Had to draw yesterday...

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Lee Lapin wrote:

And you were walking on the street in a bad part of town... why?

I didnt realize we were confined to the areas' we were assigned by the gubment. Maybe he was there because its a free country, and the last time he checked there werent checkpoints, but Im just guessing:confused:....


But really, sarcasm aside, he said he had friends there.
 
Interesting news report with info on urban thug pit bulls:

"Authorities say the pit bull fighting subculture encompasses not only dog men with their training kennels and scheduled matches; it also includes less organized dogfighting that frequently takes place in poor urban neighborhoods, including in the District.

Although in both types of fighting the dogs maul each other in a frenzy of blood and saliva, inner-city fights usually are spontaneous. One gang member strutting with his nasty pit bull sees another, egos swell, and soon they're in a vacant building, the dogs ripping into each other while still on leash chains. "Street fighting," these impromptu bouts are called.

Unlike a dog man's pit bulls, most street maulers aren't carefully bred from fighting stock. They aren't put through weeks of pre-fight cardiovascular training on treadmills and in swimming pools. They're not steroid-enhanced. Their jaw muscles aren't pumped from a regimen of "bite-and-shake" exercises. Their teeth haven't been sharpened with electric grinders while they're sedated.

Pit bull fighting emerged as a popular betting pastime in the mid-1800s. As laws against it were enacted, it moved underground. By the mid-20th century, it was mostly a rural pursuit.

About 15 years ago, after it became fashionable in the urban thug life to be seen with a menacing pit bull, spur-of-the-moment street fights became common.

In this realm, to train them, owners often whip their pit bulls, burn them with cigarettes, feed them gunpowder and jalape?o peppers until they turn unremittingly vicious. Authorities said a dog man's pit bulls normally are safe for people to handle, while a street dog usually will attack anything that moves, except the "alpha male" who abused it.


A dog man's pit bulls are taught to be human-friendly because, under fight rules dating to the 1950s, each side handles and washes the other's dog before a match, in case the opposition has coated its animal with a poison or sedative.

In time, street-fighting pit bulls -- scarred and missing ears, racked by infection, their teeth broken and legs mangled -- will cease to look menacing.

"We get them left in abandoned buildings, thrown in Dumpsters, severely injured," said Chris Schindler, a Humane Society officer in the District. "We had an incident where somebody threw a trash bag out of a car, and it was one dog that was alive and one that was dead -- all fought up, really bad injuries. Just threw them out the window."

In a field near the Rhode Island Avenue Metro station in Northeast Washington, Schindler said, "there are some old train tracks, and for about a year straight, we were constantly finding dogs tied to the tracks out there and left to die."

Researchers say organized pit bull fighting is less prevalent in the Washington region than in states farther south, although a dog man in Richmond was sentenced to four yeas in February. The FBI keeps no records on dogfighting arrests nationwide. The Humane Society has counted about 150 in the past two years, including eight in Virginia, two in Maryland and one in the District.

Because urban pit bull fights usually are spontaneous, police said, making arrests is difficult unless owners are caught in the act. Based on the dozens of battered and scarred pit bulls abandoned or seized in the Washington area every year, however, animal-protection advocates say street fighting is common."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101997.html

Not knowing the status of the dog, I would treat it as a mortal threat and act accordingly.
 
Hence I can dirve around with an AK in my back window and nobody really cares

Ha! I can see why you wouldn't call, and I can see why you would. Like Lee said, I'd just call and leave my contact info for giggles...:D
 
FWIW, when an angered dog charges you, get your shirt off quickly. Stretch it out between your fists in front of you, dog height. Allow the dog to latch on to it, and do not let it go. The dog does not recognize the shirt is not you unless he is trained otherwise. Some dogs snap and then release and snap again, others tend to bite and pull. By pulling against the dog, you make the snapper into a puller. Allow him to snarl and growl, pull him to a place where you can escape, let him have your shirt and then escape trough a gate or door while he is trying to kill the shirt. Does this work? I was taught this technique by a K9 officer. It has worked twice for me

I'm thinking I could blind the dog and anyone else within eyeshot of me if I were to remove my shirt on a sunny day.:what:
 
XB,interesting on teh sirt bit, but I tend to wear nice button up collard shirts, not real easy to remove quickly.

I do disagree on the dog breaking off becuase I took a defensive stance. It turned only when one of the guys called it off. Sadly, they had no intention of doing it till I drew down, about 5-8 seconds went by after the dog was in the street and they called it. They were looking in my direction the whole time. As stated, I tried backing off from it but took one step forward for every step I took back. Had the dog just stood and barked, I woldn't have really cared. But the dog kept agressing. Could it have bitten me, sure, I have no doubt of that. Would it have if not called off, that I have no clue about but I know I wasn't about to let it without a fight.

The thought going through my mind was if it were to lunge to put my left arm up, let the dog go for that, then shove the muzzle in its chest or against the ribs with my right hand and let it have all 7 rounds.
 
I will also politely disagree about the use of force continuum.

A dog is not a person. A charging dog is likely not to respond as a threatening person would with verbal warnings etc. Also the speed of the attack precludes much of the use of force continuum.

As far as my state laws go, all I have to do is state that I was threatened to be able to defend myself against a dog. ALL dogs must be leashed or confined under state law. While they are not fair game for shooting unless threatening people or livestock , the dog running loose is a violation of law.

The first question an officer is going to do after I make my statement is to ask the owner why poochie was not on a leash. It gets more interesting if people have called in on the dog already.

As far as OP goes, I believe he handled it appropriately
 
Drifter,

Your sarcasm is duly noted.

The OP stated it was "a bad part of town." Obviously given subsequent developments, he was 100% correct in his initial evaluation of the circumstances. Yet he walked where he stated that he could have driven, thereby exposing himself unnecessarily to the events which subsequently transpired.

Sometimes wisdom, experience and good judgement offer restraints to personal behavior where more formal strictures do not exist. Private citizens who legally carry guns as part of their daily routine are generally well advised to allow discretion the upper hand whenever there is a question regarding the circumstances they are considering.

In other words: "A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."


brerrabbit,

I posted the material regarding the force continuum as general information, not with specific regard to its application or utility in dealing with aggressive canines.

And I sincerely hope that your assumptions in regard to aggressive dogs as well as your legal flexibility to deal with them by discharging your firearm, are always borne out by events. Experential education in both regards is frequently painful and/or expensive.

lpl/nc
 
I don't have a SINGLE relative in Chicago who DOESN'T live in a "bad" part of town. Are you saying I should never visit them?

Exactly. This is America. While it might be prudent and wise to maybe try to avoid certain places at certain times, it doesn't mean that you are looking for trouble just because you choose to walk through any particular place at any given time.
 
Any dog that is attacking me is certainly not worth ruining a perfectly good shirt over...I own and love dogs myself, but I have no sympathy for dangerous animals or their owners. I'd have shot that dog if it came within 10 feet of me in such a manner, and called the police to make a formal complaint against the owner for initiating the attack, even if only by violating the leash law. I'm one of those unreasonable people who feels that people are more important than my (or your) dogs.
 
Quote:
And you were walking on the street in a bad part of town... why?

I don't have a SINGLE relative in Chicago who DOESN'T live in a "bad" part of town. Are you saying I should never visit them?

The victim does not have to defend why they were in a place, or wearing something, or otherwise doing something that would seem to mitigate their victim status, as long as what he was doing was legal.

A dog not under strict control by owner that threatens someone else in any way gets whatever the intended victim cares to perpetuate on it. As a cyclist, I have been threatened by more dogs than most people can image (unless you are a postman!). On a bicycle, dogs can do you harm just by running in front of you (endo, break wrist or collarbone). Rest assured that these guys and many like them derive a great amount of entertainment by watching their dogs intimidate others. Had they attempted from the start to gain control of their animal, talking nice while holding a can of pepper spray would be the correct option. But when the behaviour is condoned or encouraged, visiting death upon the viscious animal with a pistol is appropriate.
 
What are you going to tell the police though in all seriousness? That you were walking down the street and a dog didn't attack you? I have a lot of friends who are cops and they get irritated when they take a call like that because (fortunately) nothing happened and there's little there for them to actually report.

You felt threatened and luckily had the tools to defend yourself in said circumstance. Luckily, nothing happened and you can shrug it off. I think the only reason I would've reported that is if those guys want to start problems later on, than that way if something happens the police will already have a report on file of a semi-disturbance involving the two of you. Other than that, I wouldn't really bother.
 
I think the OP did exactly what I would have done in the same situation. Props for handling it the way you did...
 
Well, let's see. Some folks here don't seem to be getting the point I keep trying to make. Let me try again.

I quoted John Farnam earlier in this thread, here he is again:
The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

Now here's the point, one more time- don't YOU be stupid. Clear enough?

Your concealed carry permit is not a license to be stupid. Nor does it appoint you to the job of Caped Crusader.

Which part of DON'T BE THERE do you fail to understand? Yeah, you pack a gun. Yeah, you draw faster than Hitchcock and shoot straighter than William Tell. Yes, you have a wall full of awards at home for Upholding Truth, Justice And The American Way.

Guess what? Your derrierre can still get dragged over the coals for drawing a gun in public, MUCH LESS for actually discharging rounds-which almost certainly will have a result far different from what some (perhaps even many) of you here seem to expect. Yes, this is America. Yes, this is a free country. Yes, you can walk wherever you please. I'm not arguing that, OK?

What I AM saying is that, when you carry a gun, your self-discipline, maturity, judgement, sense of responsibility and discretion needs to be at a higher level than at any other time in your life. Your gun is not a talisman to ward off evil, it is a burden to be used in extremis, when you find yourself in a situation you could not have forseen, when there is no other reasonable way out of that situation for you. You are not one of the elect, you do not have a 'get out of jail free' card. Best you not act as if you did.

lpl/nc
 
Yet he walked where he stated that he could have driven, thereby exposing himself unnecessarily to the events

Now here's the point, one more time- don't YOU be stupid. Clear enough?

Cheebis. I'll be honest, I don't here a lot of people around here call anybody "stupid" even in a round about way...:(
 
Eyesac,

"Don't YOU be stupid" is a long way from "You are stupid."

The former is advice. The second is namecalling. Namecalling is not appropriate behavior on THR, and I wouldn't engage in it.

lpl/nc
 
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our concealed carry permit is not a license to be stupid. Nor does it appoint you to the job of Caped Crusader.
Wow. A guy walked ONE FREAKIN' BLOCK down the street and suddenly he's a caped vigilante.

You are not one of the elect, you do not have a 'get out of jail free' card. Best you not act as if you did.
Do you want a wider brush, or is the one your wielding broad enough?

Sheesh. I'm all for avoiding trouble, but sometimes it just finds you. Berating someone for having allowed trouble to find them sounds a little overly judgmental.

Anything different besides not being in that neighborhood in the first place.
I'd probably have called the police and reported the incident.
 
Good job! You did exactly what I would have done. You were prepared to protect yourself from a dangerous animal.
 
Do you want a wider brush, or is the one your wielding broad enough?

rbernie,

Apparently not broad enough, no.

Try substituting an I or a me, or an us or a we, anywhere I mistakenly used the word you and see if that works better. That's the way it's intended, sorry it didn't come across that way.

Nobody ever issued me a caped crusader license either, after all.

lpl/nc
 
Why is it assumed that everyone in these posts is a WANNABE gang banger or a gang banger? There are criteria for being in a gang. Yes there are wannabe's but some people just do what they do and have no desire to join a gang. Thugs? Maybe. Gang bangers? Maybe , maybe not. Stop throwing these labels on every one who just might happen to be hanging out late at night. We don't like when we as a whole are labeled "Gun toting psychos" and the like. Or maybe we do....:D
 
If you have a CCW permit. Then I see no problem with your actions.
I have 4 dogs, and if one was to get loose and be aggressive to some one,
Then by all means do what is necessary to stop to "attack".
That's why I have gone to extensive measure to keep my dogs in MY yard.

Now if you come in my yard and shoot my dog...We are going to have problems.
 
=Lee Lapin said:
The OP stated it was "a bad part of town." Obviously given subsequent developments, he was 100% correct in his initial evaluation of the circumstances. Yet he walked where he stated that he could have driven, thereby exposing himself unnecessarily to the events which subsequently transpired.

I agree with rbernie that your criticism of this guy for walking a short distance a single time into the "bad part of town" is going way overboard. It isn't like he walked from a gated community into a war zone just for kicks. He isn't doing this on a daily basis. The chance of anything bad happening in such a brief, one-time trip is so miniscule as to not be worth considering. I'd bet that walking 15 minutes through a "bad part of town" isn't any more dangerous than a typical drive to work. Especially considering how many people go through "bad parts of town" on the way from their nice suburb to their inner city job. I do, and my car broke down at the off-ramp to one of those on the way to work the other day. Am I and all my co-workers being stupid by working there? Should we all quit our jobs to avoid the danger?
 
When one is not trained for such..

...

Some very interesting reading, to be sure, but most dogs are like their owners, take from that, what you will.

When it is all said and done, my vote would go with Vodka 7's response..

Glad OP's "body language" stopped the dog, along with the "owners knew", "what the dog didn't" (the gun) and they acted quickly to subdue their dog.

Only wrong part was: someone should have been kicking the owners in the arse all the way back into their yard, not them kicking the dog.


LS
 
Stopped the Dog

*Sigh*

The OP's body language didn't stop the dog.

I've read this thread twice now.

I keep tripping over a hockey puck, and I'm not sure where it's coming from.

It's like, I dunno, willful misunderstanding.

The OP did fine.

The only thing he might have done better was call it in. You know, "hi, I was just obliged to draw my weapon on a charging dog; the owners called it off, but only after I drew; is there anything the department needs on this, or do we just call it even?"

And, given that he lives where guns are common enough, it's likely he could even skip that part.

The spontaneous argumentation about whether he was smart to go where he went, whether he had a choice, whether he should be allowed to go there, whether there should be government controls on going to the "bad" part of town . . . just wow.

Then Lee goes for a clarification . . . and gets pelted with fruit because he didn't include enough boilerplate??

Holy cow!

You know, I'm really tired, I haven't had more than four hours of sleep per night in a week, my vision is fuzzy, I make 14 typos per line, I'm analytically a wreck, and EVEN I UNDERSTOOD what was being said and what was meant.

*Sigh*
 
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