Have you ever shot anyone?

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, I have killed men in combat.

I've been a soldier all my life and a serious student of military history. You can read the literature, from Thucididies ("The Pelloponesian War") to Xenophon ("The Anabasis") to Caesar ("Gallic Wars.") All three of these men saw the elephant. All of them fought in the front line and killed men face to face, in hand-to-hand combat.

You can read memoirs of later soldiers -- from MacArthur to McBride, to John B. George.

And while you will find them describing killing, and discussing the tactics, weapons and so on, to my knowledge not one of them attempts to answer that deep, introspective question, "What does it feel like to kill a man."

They couldn't do it, and I can't either.

 

[Matt-J2]

I Beat The Lock. Yay.

Anywho, the answer for me is no. I've been shot, sort of, but not with ill intent, just dumbassery. Just remember that the 4 Rules aren't merely suggestions.

 

[Treo]

I Am Making This Statement Very Much " In General"

Please don't be offended.

To my knowledge I have never met anyone that posts here face to face, I don't really know any of you.

I'm not sure that I would trust the word of an anonymous person on the internet that they had killed anyone.

That said, I really wonder how much of this agony of spirit over killing is a cultural phenomenon. I don't ever hear about William Bonney brooding over the 9 ( 21 is a myth) men he killed. and I don't think anyone ever mentioned that Alvin York lost any sleep either.

I really wonder how much of this is phsycobabble that started when the hippies started calling our soldiers "baby killer"

As to weather or not I ever killed anyone, ( and you shouldn't take my word for it either) I shot a hell of a lot of artillery during Desert Storm, but I never fired my rifle once. I'm sure I did but I don't sit around in the middle of the night brooding about it.

Oh and the obligatory I B T L

 

[Okiecruffler]

I'll leave you with wise words from my father in law, a fella who spent some vacation time in the pacific in the 40's, "There are those who have and those who talk about it, and they seldom sit in the same chair."



Oh and before I forget, IBTL.

 

[.38 Special]

Old Charles Askins Jr. had no problem talking about it. And of course Jim Cirillo as well.

Books are available from both men. The OP may find what he is looking for in them.

 

[Eric F]

How about this aspect, some will say yes and did..........how many will say yes and did not? After all it is the internet and some use the keyboard to bolster their subadaquate life.

Oh and I am not pointing a finger at any one on that topic so dont form a lynch mob

 

[loneviking]

That said, I really wonder how much of this agony of spirit over killing is a cultural phenomenon. I don't ever hear about William Bonney brooding over the 9 ( 21 is a myth) men he killed. and I don't think anyone ever mentioned that Alvin York lost any sleep either.

I really wonder how much of this is phsycobabble that started when the hippies started calling our soldiers "baby killer"

I'd try a search on Alvin York before making that claim. I seem to recall problems with alcohol and insomnia. But, part of the problem is cultural. We, as a people, are not a nation of hunters and gun users. I know that there are folks carrying guns everyday that have never killed so much as a songbird. MSNBC recently had an interview with a serial killer, who said that he was shocked after his first shooting at how much blood there was. He had grown up watching the typical T.V. shows where someone shoots another, they fall down and they're dead. Real life isn't that way.

But, there's something else going on, IMHO. I read in the news where researchers have found a violence gene, and how a person with the gene is raised can influence them to become criminals or soldiers/leo's, etc. I would guess that our genes influence our 'mental toughness', for lack of a better word.

I've worked for almost 25 years in ICU's and E.R.s as a provider, and I've seen a lot of shootings/stabbings/beatings and trauma. I've also been responsible for training in new employees and students. For some reason, there are people who just can't handle the blood, guts and gore. It gives them nightmares, gives them problems eating and sleeping and they find work in units or hospitals where they don't have to deal everyday with these issues. I am pretty sure that these are the folks who would have severe PTSD if they had to shoot someone.

Anyway, some random thoughts I had on the topic. And no, I haven't had to shoot anyone yet.

 

[Treo]

I'd try a search on Alvin York before making that claim. I seem to recall problems with alcohol and insomnia

Alvin York was a heavy binge drinker (by his own admission) before he ever joined the Army. He did have some religious conflicts during basic training, but resolved them before shipping out for France.

I've worked in an E.R. previously (and hope to again after school) and I've never had a problem W/ the gore. I get more bothered by terminally ill kids.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I've worked in an E.R. previously (and hope to again after school) and I've never had a problem W/ the gore. I get more bothered by terminally ill kids.

I've done both, I'm doing both. ER was more fun, kids more rewarding. But while I never dream of the worst of the ER chaos, I have kids who visit every night.

 

[GRB]

Yes - I shot one bad guy with one bullet that caused 5 holes in him. I shot as soon as the gun cleared the holster without aiming and as I was bringing gun up to point shoot if more shots would have been needed (vertical tracking technique). The 5 holes were:

1) Entry hole in upper right side of right thigh

2) exit hole upper left side of right thigh

3) entry hole right side of scrotum

4) exit hole left side of scrotum

5) entry hole left thigh

The bullet wound up almost touching his femoral artery near his left knee.

A visible shock wave went through his face, his eyes opened wide, and an actual ripple was seen around his face as he went up on his toes then bent doubled over. He tried to get back in the car that he had exited just before trying to rob me, then got up and ran away at good speed about 1-2 seconds after I shot him. He ran because when I put one into the windshield of the car, at about driver's head level, the driver who was still in the car did not wait for his shot friend but threw it in reverse and took off. That shot had a good effec because the guy in the car was getting out holding a loaded 38 when the shot hit the windshield. Eventually he waited for the other guy about a block away, and they took off together. The windshield deflected that second shot.

The guy who was shot was found a day or two later in a hospital several miles from where I shot him. As far as I am aware he still carries that bullet, Federal 115 JHP as I recall. Confession by both culprits and jail for both of them for about 4 years or so.

I have shot at at least one other person, and even though I missed, it had the right effect and he broke off his attack, as did his amigos. I had broken glass in my eyes at the time I took that shot, and thins were a bit blurry.

I also once fired what amounted to a warning shot over the head of an unarmed assailant who was urging about 20 other guys to kill me by beating me. Looked as if it parted his hair, I guess that was the muzzle blast. It also had the right effect as I am still here.

The nightmares after shooting someone are not enjoyable. I guess it means I have a conscious, but that did not make the nightmares easier to take. Never dreamt of guns before that, dreamt of them for years afterwards, especially in that they would fail me as I was being killed, beaten, eaten, devoured, burned, or destroyed by some sort of heinous creature of my nightmares. Pretty much over that for years now. The shooting was in or about 1987.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Treo]

I can't cite this quote
Because I can't remember the name of the book. But I remember reading a book about air combat in WWI that talked about a British pilot ( Manning I think) who wrote once in his diary " Sizzle,sizzle, sizzle, I sent another one to Hell today. I hope he burned all the way down. He then recounted in great detail how he rode the kill all the way to the ground W/ the specific intent of watching the the German pilot burn to death.

That doesn't sound like a man who was troubled to me.

I can cite this quote

Gregory Boyington recounted a similar incident in his book " Baa Baa Black Sheep"

He also tells of a time when he fired on a Japanese plane that showed no damage but was obviously going down out of control he said he flew next to the plane saw that the pilot was dead and sent another burst into the plane until it blew up. He said that the only time he felt squeamish was when the plane exploded.

Last example:

Boyington all so talks about flying around killing people ( his words) on Christmas Day 1943 & how only once did he stop and think about what a hell of a thing that was for one man to do to another (his words again) on Chirstmas.

So were these two just Phsyco? (Boyington was a drunk by his own admission but again that was way prior to the war) I don't think they were .

 

[Treo]

3) entry hole right side of scrotum

4) exit hole left side of scrotum

I'm sorry but just reading that hurt.

 

[GRB]

You can bet both Manning and Boyington had their nightmares. You can also bet they felt the hero, they were on top of the world, they wanted to see the other guy die because they thought the enemy was scum.

Lots of people feel good during and after a shooting. I felt great. I was the man. I had gotten the bad guy. Screw him I thought - I won. He had apparently wanted to harm me, so did his accomplice. People congratulated me, people praised me, one guy started to call me Ballseye. It was a good feeling, it was a thing to joke about, it was something to get free drinks out of telling about in a bar. None of that prevents nightmares or feelings of guilt for having violated your upbringing, and mine was Roman Catholic - thou shalt not kill - love thy neighbor - turn the other cheek - and all that stuff.

If I did not tell people about my nightmares who would know except someone else who hid his own. A while after the shooting in which I was involved, a Customs Inspector I worked with asked me if I had had a certain dream of the bullet coming out of the gun, and slowly arching down to the ground while making a noise like a high pitched doot, doot, doot, doot - while the bad guy in the dream laughed at me. I had that exact dream - it was amazing. He knew about it because he had had it too, along with others, right after the first guy he had shot while working as a cop for the NYPD (he retired from them and went to Customs as an Inspector). He told me that I was the first person he ever told about the nightmares, and his shooting was about 15 years prior to him telling me. Imagine keeping things like that locked up inside of you all those years and not having an outlet because he could not tell one other person - he thought he was going crazy and was afraid. He was not going crazy at all, he was suffering from post traumatic stress – a normal reaction to such a stressful situation. He suffered from it a lot longer than did I, probably because it took him over 15 years to get it off of his chest.

All the best,
GB

 

[blackbearaddict]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

this is pretty good i have to say

 

[theotherwaldo]

I've only dreamed about the shooting once. I dreamed that I missed. The man with the knife then chopped me up, killed my drunken uncle, my grandparents, then he and his friends dragged off my three little girl cousins.

It was a horrible nightmare.

 

[R.W.Dale]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

this is pretty good i have to say

WOW! what an IDIOT!

 

[M47 Dragon]

Here is an answer that is a little different:

Yes, I've shot someone. Made 4 holes in him (entered in left calf, exited left calf, entered left forearm, exited left forearm). It is hard to admit this, but I have come to terms with it - it was an accident, or negligent discharge. Thank goodness the guy was okay, the wounds did not cause any major damage and to this day he uses the scars as a pick up line in bars. "I've been shot twice..." he says, even though it was only one bullet.
Anyway, he was a guy I worked with - he came over to hang out after work one day and after a lot of alcoholic beverages being taken in, asked to see my gun. 'Nuff said. It was stupid and I darn near killed myself over the incident.

That happened 15 years ago. I didn't touch guns for a long time. I couldn't watch movies or TV shows with the sound of gunfire for a long time.

I am a former Marine, and it hit me very hard that I was not safe with a firearm. That stuck with me hard over the years.

In the last couple of years, I've gotten back into shooting. I inherited some of my dad's firearms when he passed away. I guess that is what got me back into it - almost like my dad telling me to prove to myself that I AM safe and need to rid some of the guilt I've been carrying around for all these years.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

blow gun made with a section of copper pipe and an acorn........does that count?

You'll shoot his eye out!

 

[ColinthePilot]

I have not, but one of my best friends has shot more than a few as a Special Ops troop in Iraq. (I know this sounds like another "I know a mall ninja" story, but it is true, for what its worth)
When he came back after his first tour, we were sitting around his place partying for his return. about 5am and a few cases of beer down, he's still happily telling war stories, and I'm still happily listening. I asked, very cautiously if he had killed anyone over there. We're very close, like brothers, and he took another pull off his beer and told me all about his first kill. He told me play-by-play what happened. He told me it didn't hit him till that night in his tent, that he had killed a man. He also said that it didn't take him long to get his composure back with the knowledge that it was either "him or me." I haven't asked him about it since, he's gettin ready for another tour, this time in Afghanistan. He can't wait to go.

 

[Eric F]

You'll shoot his eye out!

funny you should say that a detached retna resulted. All is well now and I only had to pay his deductable. I moved a week later and sliped out at night so no one knew I was gone. Hope this doesnt follow me, 2 more years until statute of limitations is up!

 

[Colt Smith]

Thank You

To those of you who have offered information about books and other resources, thank you. I will look for them. For others with stories, I deeply appreciate those honest accounts. Those stories will never be repeated by me to anyone. But it gives me valuable insight and some very important things to think about when considering the ramifications of my actions. I usually keep my guns in the safe. One night I loaded a revolver and placed it on the nightstand next to me before I drifted off to sleep. That night I had nightmares about guns. I don't remember the details but I never had those dreams before. The guns are back in the safe. I still have much to consider. Thanks again to everybody who offered serious advice or stories and congrats to everybody who beat the lock!

 

[Mr Kablammo]

As others have written, shooting someone has severe after-effects. One might expect a burst of euphoria at reducing the number of 'oxygen thieves', instead there is guilt and self-accusation. A good source on this are the books and columns by Massad Ayoob, a noted author on firearms issues. Read "In the Gravest Exteme" and "Stressfire II". Thankfully, the pictures in "S II" are in black and white. Whether the need to shoot is from a place of goodness or malice, the intensity of the incident is off the scale and therefore burned into the psyche. Those who know the shooter are often involved with a psychological event called "The mark of Cain". They are anxious if this previously innocuous person might turn on them...

S.L.A. Marshall wrote some books on Man in combat. The % of willing killers is pretty small.

Having supported the declaration that most are unwilling to discuss this issue and suffer personally from the incident, I have to say that there factors of acculturation and psychology that effect remorse or fondness.

 

[Rich K]

No I haven't. That being said, I have read a great deal on the subject. Askins and Cirillo are good places to start. Also, " On Killing" by Dave Grossman, I believe is another place.

As for shooting enemies in wartime, I recall reading Audie Murphy's biography, in which he recounted a recurrent nightmare of his M-1 carbine having" A piece of it fall away every time I pulled the trigger, until I had nothing but the trigger guard in my hand."

For what it is worth.

 

[loop]

I don't like this thread. I wish the mods would kill it.

 

[hotshotshoting]

does this thread offend you?

if it does may i suggest avoiding it?

ps your attitude is the same attitude that anti gunners have... i dont like guns so no one should have them plz government take everyones gun away so the criminals can be the only armed people....

im not trying to insult you im just trying to let you see a different perspective