Headspace gauge needed if you're doing a full length resize?

[murf]

neck sizing with a full length sizing die is a bad idea. get a neck sizing die and do it right.

if you want to use your full length sizing die to size less than full (recommended), get your feeler gauge and read fguffeys posts about sizing cases (or ask him. i'm sure he will show you how).

neck sizing is not always more accurate than full length. every rifle is different.

luck,

murf

 

[918v]

But the shellholders are so pretty, blued and knurled. Just because your set was defective font mean every set is. I betcha if you miked random shellholders they would all be different.

The whole point to them is you start with the +.010" and work your way down.

 

[glennv]

Below is the gauge I was referring to. It's a case headspace gauge. It came today i ran all my full resized brass through the gauge and everything fits perfectly. am I good to go at this point?


http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/case-prep/rifle-headspace-gauges.php

 

[Walkalong]

If it passes the gauge checks, yes, you should be good to go.

 

[homatok]

From the referenced Lyman site:
"Protect yourself and your firearms
To achieve the highest degree of safety and accuracy, Lyman recommends that all bottleneck rifle cases be inspected after resizing to ensure that the proper headspace dimension is maintained. The best way to check this critical dimension is with a Lyman case length/headspace gauge. The reloader simply inserts the case into the gauge to insure that it does not exceed the maximum or fall below the minimum allowable headspace. In addition, the gauge will identify a case which exceeds the maximum allowable case length . Caution: Any case found with excessive headspace should be destroyed immediately."

Notwithstanding the above----A "case" does NOT have a "headspace" measurement!! there is NO specification drawing (blueprint) of a cartridge case that identifies a “headspace” measurement. Further, there is NO gauge that can (by measuring a cartridge case) identify a “headspace” problem in your firearm. “Headspace” measurements are identified on chamber spec drawings only! They depict the measurement from the bolt-face to a predetermined point (rimless case) where the shoulder of a chambered round contacts the chamber wall and stops. On firearms that use rimmed/semi-rimmed cases “headspace” is measured from the boltface to where the forward edge of the rim contacts the breech face and chamber drawings depict that. Since each chamber is unique in its manufacture, the only thing Lyman’s gauge can do is to tell you if your case is sized to be within SAAMI specifications!

The description of a true “headspace” gauge provided in an earlier post is bang on! There is NO way the gauge depicted in Lyman’s add can be used to tell you if you have a “headspace” problem in your firearm, it is simply a case gauge, and in my opinion Lyman’s reference to a “case length/headspace gauge” is stupid if not misleading.

 

[fguffey]

Homatok, I make every effort to post links to SAAMI, no where on the drawings furnished by SAAMI is there a reference to the case having head space, case length only and that dimension is not absolute. I use the length of the case to off set the length of the chamber. I know how long the case should by determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face.

I have always thought those that purchased L. Willis head space gages be allowed to return the tool for a full refund once they discover his head space gage is a comparator.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

“But the shell holders are so pretty, blued and knurled. Just because your set was defective don’t mean every set is. I bet you if you milked random shell holders they would all be different.

The whole point to them is you start with the +.010" and work your way down”

5 Shell holders for $5.00 off set the price of getting to the gun show and the price of getting in. I do not have a shell holder that has not been measured, it was not that long ago when it was claimed a reloaders had to use matching shell holders meaning the brand of die had to match the brand of shell holder ‘because of difference in tolerances?’ , I have contended all a shell holder can/has to do is have a deck height of .125”. I have shell holders that are off by .007”, I have had the opportunity to exchange all of my shell holders for new ones because the older sets were designed for other purposes ‘and’ they will not fit RCBS auto primers. And I thanked them for their offer.



“I have contended all a shell holder can/has to do is have a deck height of .125”: There are/were difference between manufacturers (in the old days), RCBS allowed for forming cases for short chambers, Herter shell holder had an advantage not offered by RCBS, the advantage of the Herter shell holder went/goes unnoticed, the benefit of the RCBS shell holder over the Herter shell holder goes unnoticed/unappreciated.

They are not my shell holders, other members of this forum have received Redding shell holders, in all appearance the shell holder being less than than perfect was more than the members could deal with. They would not allow Redding the +/- of .001”. They called Redding and wanted changes, they sent the shell holders back and received ‘spot-on’ Competition shell holders, me? I can accomplish any task 5 Redding competition shell holder can accomplish with a (one) RCBS shell holder, I can form short cases for short chambers, as much as .012” short from minimum length to .017” shorter than a go-gage length chamber. With the same shell holder I can form/size cases from minimum length to infinity ( or a more practical .016” longer than a minimum length case from the shoulder back to the head of the case..

The question could be” What did you do when sizing cases before the Redding Competition shell holder, nothing changed for me, I kept-on keeping-on, I start with a case that is too long from the shoulder back to the bolt face, with the feeler gage. and when dealing with a Redding competition shell holder that is off by .001”? I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Whatever you want to call them, "headspace" gauges are a great way to ensure your brass will fit a properly machined chamber without having excess headspace. (Too much front to back play when in the chamber.) For most people and guns this works just fine. If it did not, they would not be selling so many. When it doesn't work, as in when a chamber is too short or too long, problems arise and it is found out by any reloader who is paying attention. This shows up as brass not chambering or very short case life due to case head separation, or at its worst, a case head separation on the first firing.

Later down the road the reloader will eventually learn to measure where the shoulder is in comparison to his rifles chamber and have even more control. There is more than one way to do this effectively. We all have our favorites.

Millions of reloaders just follow die directions, screw the sizer down to just touch the shell holder and they get along fine most of the time. If you choose to use a case gauge you are one more step towards more efficient informed reloading.

Sometimes our answers are way to complicated and sometimes confusing as well.

Just got into reloading and was wondering if i needed to check the headspace and case length if i am planning to do a full resize on all my cases. Shooting a bolt gun not a semi-auto. Also, i ordered a Lyman .308 headspace gauge and not a case length gauge. do i need both?

It is always a good idea to check your brass to ensure proper "headspace", so there won't be excessive slop in the brass fit, front to back, in the chamber. The easiest way is to use a gauge, which you have ordered, and assuming your chamber is in spec, sizing the brass to fit the gauges checks will work just fine.

A dial or digital caliper is the easiest way to check case length, but the Wilson gauge also checks case length. The Lyman may as well.

 

[thump_rrr]

Unfortunately Hornady calls the set they sell for measuring the distance between the datum line and the base of cartridges a headspace gauge kit.
In my opinion a headspace gauge is one to measure the interior dimensions of the chamber or go, no-go, field reject gauges.

 

[Walkalong]

one to measure the interior dimensions of the chamber or go, no-go, field reject gauges.

This is true.

 

[dmazur]

While there is already an overabundance of terminology associated with headspace, I found the term "induced excess headspace" to be useful for understanding the problem of over-resizing.

That is, a rifle with stretched lugs, or a chamber which was cut oversized, can have excess headspace. The result is case head separations or extremely short brass life, due to the amount the case head stretches on firing.

However, it is sometimes possible for the reloader to set up a resizing die so that it moves the shoulder too far. The rifle's chamber may be in spec, but now the case isn't. The result can be case head separations or extremely short brass life, just like a rifle with excess headspace.

However, the latter condition was "induced" by incorrectly setting up the equipment. As soon as the die is adjusted correctly, the problem is resolved.

A rifle with actual excess headspace needs to have the barrel set back a turn, or some other gunsmith work to restore the correct dimension. (Well, except for Savage...)

I believe that most of us learn to read the context around "headspace" and then proceed with an "Oh, it's the chamber" moment when it becomes clear the author isn't referring to case length to shoulder.

Things could definitely be clearer, but I believe the cats are out of the bag on this one already, and it may be too late to clean up the language...

 

[Walkalong]

I have always used "artificial headspace" when trying to explain how excess headspace is created by moving the shoulder too far back for use in an otherwise perfectly headspaced chamber. Some like to call it clearance, and it is indeed clearance front to back as in how far the case can move front to back, back being stopped by the breechface and front by the shoulder of the chamber. (For bottle necked calibers)

Induced is a good way to explain it. We induce "artificial headspace", "excess headspace", "excess clearance" etc, when we push the shoulder back too far.

No wonder we all get confused.

 

[918v]

That is why blindly following the instructions that come with the dies is ill advised. If you screw the die against the shell holder and size away, you are pushing the shoulder way past where it needs to be. Typically, following instructions will oversize the case by .005". But it could be more than that.

The best way to FL size is not to use any gauges, but to incrementally size the case until the bolt closes nice. That setting for that rifle will quadruple brass life. Competition shell holders make this easy. Using a feeler gage makes that easy. But simply screwing the die in a little bit at a time will work too.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The best way to FL size is not to use any gauges, but to incrementally size the case until the bolt closes nice.

This would be true IF every rifle was a bolt action. With EVERYTHING else this "advice" doesn't work at all or can be downright dangerous.

With a single shot its a great recipe to induce some spectacular vertical stringing.

With an AR it's a great way to lodge a case in the chamber quite solidly

Garands/m1a's and various military battle rifles you can cause slam fires or worse.

In straight walled rifle cases it doesn't even apply.

In levers and pumps its a really efficient means of locking a rifle up at the worst time (naturally)



Handloading forums are the worlds worst at over analyzing the simplest questions. If you only read one post one paragraph one sentence in this entire long winded and confusing diatribe that is this thread it's this.

Use your case gauge. It WILL create safe ammunition as good as factory that will work in ANY gun of that chambering in good condition, don't sweat brass life, your brass life is already superior to what you were getting as a non handloader previously. Shoot, enjoy, reload and repeat. Come back in a year after you've gained much knowledge and familiarity and decide if you want to argue over the finer points of FL, bump or neck only sizing.

 

[918v]

Not true at all.

It's called gently closing the bolt. Gently closing your action. Feeling the clicks and the clunks.