Resizing Die Set Up - Headspace

[bullseye308]

The first thing to remember is the instructions were made for the average person to load safe ammo in any firearm chambered in that caliber. Their instructions are more like guidelines, like a recipe or speed limit signs, open to a little flexibility here or there to suite your needs.

That being the case, and if you are only loading for one firearm in that caliber, adjust your dies to fit the chamber you are loading for and all will be fine.

 

[CMB]

As mentioned above-


I measure a fired case then bump the shoulder .002 and it fires fine in my semi. I like the idea of long case life so only working the brass as much as I need to fits the bill.

If your loading brass fired by someone else that's another story.

Cheers,

 

[Chuck R.]

I get the best case life and often accuracy, for a individual bolt rifle if I remove the firing pin/ejector and set the die so the bolt handle falls half way home with a sized case. It will be under slight compression when the bolt closes.

View attachment 977340

That will be firearm specific, so stuff I have a lot of, like .223/.308 I use a case gauge. Because they may be fired from a single shot pistol, bolt action or semiauto rifle or even a belt fed, so it’s got to work in everything.

^ This is also my preferred method for my bolt guns and single shots.

I also use the comparators for those guns that the bolt is a PITA to break down. With the comparator I take multiple readings and use an average to size to -.002. For my Semi-s I FL size. Those are mostly for ARs and chance are the brass will be lost prior to it wearing out.

 

[film495]

out of curiousity. this is the case - headspace gauge. then later - when checking completed cartridges in a cartrdige gauge, that in no way can tell you if your headspace is too much, yes? for .223 it headspeces on the mouth, so - there would be nothing there to indicate if your headspace was way too much? If it was to little, you could tell, but - just checking in a chamber or cartridge gauge only tell you if it will fit, but - not if you might have a headspace issue. If I'm processing what the various gauges and tools, can and can not do correctly.

 

[txtaxman]

out of curiousity. this is the case - headspace gauge. then later - when checking completed cartridges in a cartrdige gauge, that in no way can tell you if your headspace is too much, yes? for .223 it headspeces on the mouth, so - there would be nothing there to indicate if your headspace was way too much? If it was to little, you could tell, but - just checking in a chamber or cartridge gauge only tell you if it will fit, but - not if you might have a headspace issue. If I'm processing what the various gauges and tools, can and can not do correctly.

Rim-less bottleneck cases, without belts, headspace on the shoulder, not the mouth of the case. The critical measurement is from the head of the case to the datum. The "case length/headspace gauge" is a datum based tool.

The following is from Lyman's web site: "Lyman recommends that all bottleneck rifle cases be inspected after resizing to ensure that the proper headspace dimension is maintained. The best way to check this critical dimension is with a Lyman case length/headspace gauge. The reloader simply inserts the case into the gauge to insure that it does not exceed the maximum or fall below the minimum allowable headspace."

 

[JFrank]

The first thing to remember is the instructions were made for the average person to load safe ammo in any firearm chambered in that caliber. Their instructions are more like guidelines, like a recipe or speed limit signs, open to a little flexibility here or there to suite your needs.

That being the case, and if you are only loading for one firearm in that caliber, adjust your dies to fit the chamber you are loading for and all will be fine.

Assuming you get instructions at all!! And this about 1/4 turn past contact might be the worst advice ever. Edit: a very broad brush...They should send a feeler gage set in every box with instructions so re loaders know what to do with them. Lol
Adjusted..

 

[kmw1954]

Assuming you get instructions at all!! And this BS about 1/4 turn past contact might be the worst advice ever. They should send a feeler gage set in every box but re loaders might not know what to do with them. Lol

Can't speak for all other makes/manufacture but the instructions for the Lee Rifle Sizing die clearly states to seat die to shell holder, lower ram and screw down 1/4 to 1/3 turn. Again that is per their own printed directions so you may want to readdress that comment.

 

[MEHavey]

Again... the OP is loading this ammunition for a Mini14 -- a Garand-based design/firing pin/lock-up

- Do NOT try to finesse sizing the case shoulder
FULL LENGTH resize the case -- at least shellholder contact + a tad
to accommodate press spring -- no gap at all when at full ram stroke.


.

 

[JFrank]

Yeah''" that was sorta my inside voice slipping out Nevertheless since I opened my big mouth i guess im stuck.
Crush fit doesn't work for all chambers that is a very broad brush, I have dies with .004 clearance, another that sizes perfect at .007 another again with .022 cam over, I know this because I measure. Perhaps the instructions should start at .010 feeler gage between the shell holder and the base of the die then size and compare reducing in .002 increments until rounds chamber freely or fit in a case gage.

 

[kmw1954]

All I know is that I did not design engineer or machine cut this die so best to just follow the manufacture recommended instructions.

I once worked machine maintenance with a guy that insisted on re-engineering everything he put his hands on and then spend countless hours putting it back the way it was meant to be so it would reliably work. Picture Tool Time Tim.

My first experience with a rifle resizing die was on a 223 with a Lee die.
Having reloaded many pistol rounds in many sizes I didn't fully read the directions on the new Rifle Resizing die and just screwed it down until contact. Sized the first one and it did not seat all the way down into the gauge. Tried another and another with the same results. Finally re-read the directions, re-adjusted the die and magically all came together. Finally I adjusted the die to where the head was just below the top of the gauge. Have yet to have a problem with any reload cycling or sticking in the gun.

 

[Blue68f100]

Rim-less bottleneck cases, without belts, headspace on the shoulder, not the mouth of the case. The critical measurement is from the head of the case to the datum. The "case length/headspace gauge" is a datum based tool.

I set all of my dies for bottle beck calibers to head space on the shoulder, weather it is a belted or rimmed. Doing it this way you will get max brass life and not over work the brass.

 

[kmw1954]

- when checking completed cartridges in a cartrdige gauge, that in no way can tell you if your headspace is too much, yes? so - there would be nothing there to indicate if your headspace was way too much? If it was to little, you could tell, but - just checking in a chamber or cartridge gauge only tell you if it will fit,.

Here I am sizing some 223 brass and on the bench is both the Lyman and the Hornady gauges. In the second picture the shorter one is the Lyman. In both gauges you can see a groove cut into the top. Flush with the top indicates max length, if not flush case headspace measures too long. If below the lower level then case headspace is too short.

I keep both on the bench and use both for quick check after sizing. The Lyman diameter is tighter and if there is a light bulge anywhere in the case sometimes the case will not fully insert. The Hornady diameter is a bit looser and the ones that will not seat in the Lyman will usually seat in the Hornady. If not then there is a problem.

I have been using this routine for all brass that I reload that was not shot in my rifle. So far everything I have reloaded this way has functioned in my gun. Again, when I finally have enough brass fired from my gun I may buy a comparator

 

[film495]

I resized a couple cases with the die touching the shell holder, and both failed the lyman case check with too much headspace. very close, but close isn't good enough, so - could be something about my combination of a vintage Herter's press, an RCBS Herter's adapter, and a RCBS shell holder. a lot is going on between the die and the piston on the press, so - just a lot of variables in my set up.

 

[JFrank]

I resized a couple cases with the die touching the shell holder, and both failed the lyman case check with too much headspace. very close, but close isn't good enough, so - could be something about my combination of a vintage Herter's press, an RCBS Herter's adapter, and a RCBS shell holder. a lot is going on between the die and the piston on the press, so - just a lot of variables in my set up.

I assume you've made the appropriate adjustments.

 

[MEHavey]

resized a couple cases with the die touching the shell holder,

The Herters C(?)-Press is springing open under stress.
- What lube are you using ?
- Are you adjusting the die in further after setting up/1st contact w/ the shell-holder ?
- Are you checking to see if even the slightest gap appears between die and shell-holder while the Press is at full stroke ?

 

[kmw1954]

I resized a couple cases with the die touching the shell holder, and both failed the lyman case check with too much headspace. very close, but close isn't good enough, so - could be something about my combination of a vintage Herter's press, an RCBS Herter's adapter, and a RCBS shell holder. a lot is going on between the die and the piston on the press, so - just a lot of variables in my set up.

Now would be the time to get out a log book and jot down some concise notes as to whatever adjustments you are making until you find what works for that setup so you can repeat it again later.

Aside from the tolerance stacking from each tool in the setup all are fixed dimensions, the length and distance of the ram stroke, the adapter and the shell holder and then the tooling of the sizing die itself. None of those things are going to mysteriously change size or dimension. The only thing that will change is the amount of pressure applied to all those tools once the case resizing starts and then that could and will effect your tolerance stacking. The more the resistance the more the deflection and distortion. So as long as you use the same tooling each time the results should be relatively close.

May be time to set up as directed in instructions and then start backing off the die. I would use a leaf type feeler gauge to measure my adjustments. If you are .003" short I would stick a .005" leaf under the die and screw it down until contact. Lock it down and then size a couple and then check with the Lyman gauge.

 

[MEHavey]

I would stick a .005" leaf under the die and screw it down until contact. Lock it down and then size a couple and then check with the Lyman gauge.

If the OP springing the press, all that is for naught.
film495, please take gander at Post#40 and address the questions.


.

 

[film495]

I made the adjustments necessary to pass the lyman case gauge check. It seems pretty easy to get it set up really. The only reason I tried the setup with the die directions was to check if it would work, and it maybe is right on the edge of OK, but it does drop below the acceptable level on the lyman case gauge which is what I suspected would happen. Someday when I find a .223 Herter's shell holder, I'll try it, and measure the gap - right now withe the RCBS adapter, and the shell holder, the die is hidden up in the press, so - I can't actually see or get to the bottom of the die to meausre it. I can't say if one method is right or wrong, and not saying the die directions don't work correctly, just that the case gauge directions and the die directions, don't create the same results, and I'll err on the method that ends up with a little less headspace, seems wise. Once I get to plunk testing my dummy rounds I may have a different view depending on results, one test at a time I guess - and just developing my process.

 

[film495]

The Herters C(?)-Press is springing open under stress.
- What lube are you using ?
RCBS lube and an RCBS lube pad.

- Are you adjusting the die in further after setting up/1st contact w/ the shell-holder ?
Well, no. To pass the lyman case gauge I have to turn it back from contact 1 turn, and then I check and it ends up about 1/2 turn from contact to pass.

- Are you checking to see if even the slightest gap appears between die and shell-holder while the Press is at full stroke ?

I can't quite see it, with the RCBS adapter and shell holder, the end of the die is inside the threaded portion fo the press. I assume there is a slight gap, but it is in theory possible that it is just touching it.



ummm, what is springing the press? maybe I'm doing that, but I don't know what that is.

 

[kmw1954]

If the OP springing the press, all that is for naught..

I do believe that if he is "Springing" the press the cases would be long and not short. The way I read his post the cases are below the desired length, "Short", when in the Lyman gauge.

 

[MEHavey]

This is a C-Press. If undue pressure is put on it, it springs the opening up further.

But when set up to contact in your case you noted " ...it does drop below the acceptable
level on the lyman case gauge..." It therefore appears to be that the the die/shellholder
combo is sizing the shoulder down too much

In that case, unscrewing the die a tad appears to solve the problem for now,
but it does also appear to be a bit hit & miss.

 

[kmw1954]

I made the adjustments necessary to pass the lyman case gauge check. It seems pretty easy to get it set up really. .

Glad to hear you've sorted it out and got it working!

 

[film495]

I do believe that if he is "Springing" the press the cases would be long and not short. The way I read his post the cases are below the desired length, "Short", when in the Lyman gauge.

yes they are a touch short by the lyman gauge. I don't have tools to actually take a measurement though, so - I can't say if it is in our our of spec, just that it falls just below the level on the lyman case gause, which I read to be a fail of the test.

 

[film495]

Glad to hear you've sorted it out and got it working!

thanks, yea - for sure. I've resised about 200 or so cases now- and just spot check every 10th one. Once set it seems very consistent, so - helpfull to get some input and insight on this forum. Always very helpfull to fill in the blanks and get views from others more experienced.

 

[kmw1954]

film495, I posted that picture of both the Lyman and the Hornady gauge and they are not the same. Though they measure the length the same. They do not measure the case diameter the same, the Lyman is tighter.

If the case head is sitting flush at the top of the gauge it is at the acceptable long length. if it is proud of the top it is too long. If the case head is level with the lower flat then it is at the minimum length and if it falls below that level it is below the minimum length, too short.

On the Lyman gauge it also will give the over-all length on the other end while the Hornady does not.