Headspace issue

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Boom Boom,
I received the rifle from my grandfather when he passed away. It was in pretty ruff shape externally. The internal parts I ordered was a firing pin and shell extractor. The firing pin was snapped off and the extractor was missing. The extractor seems to function fine and the firing pin was a perfect match to the old firing pin excluding the very tip of the firing pin since it was snapped off. The out side parts barrel and action/bolt were covered in rust. I used a fine brass wire wheel to remove rust. Unfortunately it removed what was left of any bluing. I decided since I removed the bluing and rust I decided to polish the metal parts. I did have a friend thats works at the local gun store look through the barrel to make sure it was a good before i started to restore it. This is second rifle the first which I received a few years ago was a Winchester model 1894 30-30 from my father who passed away. It is in perfect shape but I have not fired it yet. Here are some pictures of the rifle when I first got it. It was rust everywhere and missing some external parts which you helped me to find. Thanks for that..! Here are some pictures of the rifle in the condition I received it. It looks bad but the insade barrel was in good shape and the rest looks good after I got done cleaning and restoring. 20200204_145804.jpg 20200204_145758.jpg 20200204_145749.jpg 20200204_145742.jpg 20200316_141504.jpg
 
Good, you know the history of it. Did your grandfather ever fire it and did he save the brass? A fair amount of useful information can be gathered from fired brass if you can locate any of it.

So, the major issue on firing pin protrusion is that it should be .060" +/- .005=.055 to .065" from the tip of the firing pin to the bolt face when the firing pin is pushed out by hand. If it is too long, it can pierce primers which is bad, if too short, you won't get reliable operation and firing. The next thing is whether or not your extractor tension is enough to hold the cartridge straight from feeding. Mausers are designed to feed from the magazine, not by placing a round on top of it and push feeding it. The magazine is designed so that the extractor grabs the cartridge as the magazine follower and spring hold it at the proper position. If the magazine spring is weak, then feeding can be an issue, especially on a full magazine. If the extractor is worn or altered or loose due to the extractor ring's keys (the prongs that hold the extractor), the cartridge can droop a bit and miss the chamber.

What Slamfire was talking about is that some hunters, annoyed with the Mauser controlled feed, like to feed individual rounds by sitting them on top of the magazine and then have the extractor "snap" over the head of the case. Then they alter the extractor by beveling a corner of the extractor to allow it to bypass the magazine feeding if desired. In a similar way, some folks swap magazine followers (the platform that the bullets sit on in the magazine as the standard 93 Mauser follower is designed to lock the bolt back on an empty magazine. To make it able to close on an empty chamber, one has to bevel the back of the follower or more simply get a Chilean 95 Mauser follower which is the right design from the get go for closing the bolt on an empty chamber.

The next issue is that of headspace, the Mauser cartridge head is not supported at the breech end and thus the Mauser system is susceptible to getting hot gas from a cartridge separation into a bad place where it can harm the rifle and/or yourself. Older rimmed cartridge systems versus the "rimless" design were developed in the era where brass metallurgy was not that dependable and the rim seals the firing chamber on firing which can eliminate gas events in the bolt lug area. Mauser came up with the rimless for his new Mauser series where the back of the chamber allows the brass to stick out a bit--this is where the system can have issues.

Thus, firing a cartridge in a chamber-bolt relationship--rimless cartridge headspace is measured from a reference point set by the mfg at the time but later by SAAMI or CIP (ammunition and gun makers) of the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Headspace gages are carefully calibrated by their makers to conform with the SAAMI or CIP standards so that commercial ammo can be safely manufactured, guns can be made to fire this ammo safely, and older rifles can be checked for their suitability to fire ammunition safely.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Headspace_(firearms)

Three gages are made, a go gage which is used to set the minimum length chamber for a cartridge--this is only really useful for people assembling a new firearm or changing barrels, bolts, etc., the next gage is a no-go gage that is set at the maximum chamber shoulder distance to the bolt head for a new firearm. Thus, a new gun's headspace should be between a go-gage and a no-go gage at the point of purchase. The field gage is used, primarily, on old military surplus firearms. That is the maximum safe distance without risking cartridge head separation, between the bolt head and the reference point on the chamber shoulder. The military does not reload brass so firing brass in such an overly long chamber will cause it to stretch so brass life will be shortened and firing one repeatedly in such a state will often require a case extractor on hand as the case head can often be pulled off when trying to extract an fired case. It can sometimes result in some gas getting out and causing damage to the chamber and bolt face over time--pitting, etc. and gas leakage from the chamber. At a minimum, shooting glasses are strongly recommended and protective gloves are recommended for firing old milsurps, especially Mausers. New factory ammo is another thing to use if you have headspace greater than a no-go but shorter than a field gage. A lot of folks will simply chalk one up to being a wall hanger if the headspace is greater than a no-go or they have the barrel set back one thread by a gunsmith with a lathe and the chamber is then rereamed to be within a no-go gage. This is requalifying a barrel and requires the proper tooling and equipment to do right. Last, but not least, is putting a new barrel on it and finish reaming it to perfect headspace. As far as accuracy goes, this is the superior alternative.

Some folks know that their old rifles have too long headspace and artificially form cases for their rifle which is an advanced reloading technique for experienced folks. They then only neck size the brass so as to prevent additional case stretching and use that brass only in that particular rifle and they should know signs when reloading that brass is unsafe.

Last, but not least, these are old actions that saw considerable wear and tear and were not regarded as particularly strong actions as Mauser himself developed the 98 action to be stronger on purpose. If you reload, use the beginning charges in the reloading manuals--these are not safe actions to hotrod despite what is scattered around on the internet by folks that will not be paying your medical bills if things go south. Accept them for what they are--a living piece of history, honor your grandfather, and preserve the rifle for future generations by treating it gently and keeping it in good mechanical order.

Sorry for the long post.
 
I wont unfortunately have old fired cases from this firearm. My uncle's are not sure if it was my grandfathers riffle or my great grandfathers rifle. They took all the nice shinny guns and shipped this in a large moving container to Georgia from California due to my grandmother moving out here to live with my mom. I think you explained it pretty good on how to measure headspace and cleaning the barrel. I think if I can find a gunsmith local to me Fort worth TX area I will bring it to him/her. I will however go and get the cleaning supplies and clean the inside barrel in the meantime. If I cant find a gunsmith I will order the tools myself and go from there. I really appreciate your help Boom boom I'm
 
The bullet is 3 inches long and 5/16 in diameter possibly a hair passed 5/16
someone who knows more than me mentioned a long leade on these so its probably fine, I only know my 8mm mauser would not chamer something that long. Since you mentioned this extractor is to replace an missing unit, are you certain its correct? There are different bolt lengths on G/K98's that take different extractors, and yours may too.
 
Im not totally sure if my extractor is the correct one (although I do believe it is). I searched many place's and looked at different pictures to see and compare want looked like the correct extractor. It does seem to fit on the bolt and move as i move the bolt to cock and fire and pull back. I did see a video recently where a guy hand loaded 5 rounds. He then pushed forward on the bolt which picked up a round and then he stopped and pulled back before chambering the round and the extractor bolt would spit out the bullet. Before starting this thread I didn't realize how important the extractor is. At one point after ordering all sorts of missing parts for this gun I said to myself that I really didn't need the extractor boy was I wrong! I have learned alot and I think all of you guys on here for helping to hopefully one day firing my grandfathers rifle.

I have been doing some research on headspace gauges and some say they the gauges are NOT designed to be used on milsurp rifles. What is your thoughts on that? If you guys do feel they are important could you refer me to where to order and what brand? This is confusing some say this brand and others another brand. I have decided that Im going to buy a tool to hold my action block in place to remove the barrel for cleaning. I figured I have gone this far might as well go all the way! Also if any of you now where I can just buy a tool to support the action to remove the barrel rather than ordering it please let me know? I'd rather pick it up than order much faster..
 
What has to be realized is the 7mm Spanish of the 93 or 95 Mauser is not the SAAMI 7x57 of today. Witness the dilemma of the No 5 Remington Rolling Block in 1901. A 7mm Spanish chambering with many headspace problems.
 
ok guys finally got the barrel removed from the action block. As you can see the 7mm ammo does not fit in the barrel. If you look close there seems too be a liner in the way? It looks like with the liner removed the bullet would slip right in. Have any of you come across this should I remove the liner? Like stated previously the action bolt and barrel have matching numbers? 20200331_002609.jpg 20200331_002827.jpg 20200331_002918.jpg
 
Well. That's an issue. I can't say that I have come across chamber inserts like this.

I take it there is no sign that the barrel itself has been lined?

I wonder if this is some form of decommissioning?

Does the chamber insert seem loose? In other words, can you pull it out? If not, you could always do a chamber cast to see what has been inserted.

I understand this rifle has some heirloom/sentimental value? Becuase , even if the insert pops out, I think you are probably looking at wanting a new barrel.
 
The inside of the barrel is clean shinny and very clear rifling. I just got it removed from the receiver. I know my grandfather lived in California perhaps some kind of decommissioning as you say? What would be a good material to use as a cast to see the inside of this liner?
 
The barrel doesn't have a liner... The liner is only in the chamber? Weird...

I believe that I am mistaken and @Conelrad has it right: there is a separated case stuck in the chamber. Makes much, much more sense.

The brush you were getting for the chamber will likely pull the stuck separated case. You will definitely want to check headspace with a gauge when it's cleaned up. Forster make good gauges.
 
Stuck separated case seems like the best theory. I'll be interested to see how easy (or difficult) it will be to get it out.

Thanks for the great pics, by the way; they document a good step-by-step problem solving approach.
 
Before you try a shell extractor, use penetrating oil all around the cartridge and let it soak in. Given that you have the barrel off, you can probably use a tap sized appropriately from a tap and die set to gently remove the offending cartridge. Go gently because the brass is much softer than your tap and that is also true for the chamber of the barrel.

Case extractors are generally designed to use the bolt and its extractor to pry the offending cartridge remainder out of the chamber.

Just out of curiousity, was the barrel hand tight or did you use receiver action wrench and a barrel vise to remove?
 
Before you try a shell extractor, use penetrating oil all around the cartridge and let it soak in. Given that you have the barrel off, you can probably use a tap sized appropriately from a tap and die set to gently remove the offending cartridge. Go gently because the brass is much softer than your tap and that is also true for the chamber of the barrel.

Case extractors are generally designed to use the bolt and its extractor to pry the offending cartridge remainder out of the chamber.

Just out of curiousity, was the barrel hand tight or did you use receiver action wrench and a barrel vise to remove?
The barrel was extremely tight it was almost like it was welded to the receiver. it took several days of letting penetrating oil sit for awhile and a lot of force to separate the barrel from the receiver.
 
The barrel was extremely tight it was almost like it was welded to the receiver. it took several days of letting penetrating oil sit for awhile and a lot of force to separate the barrel from the receiver.
Well, it was probably rust welded by time. You need to check your receiver bottom for any sign of twisting--the bottom of the receiver should be perfectly flat and plumb. The problem with removing a barrel without a specific action wrench and barrel vise is that the receiver can get twinked a bit which can affect future accuracy. The receivers on these are pretty soft inside with case hardening on the outside surfaces. If you can, take a picture from the barrel end of the receiver (the breech end). In particular, since you have the barrel off, you are looking for signs on the locking lug recesses in the receiver--bulges, dips, displaced metal, etc. A little honest wear is ok but anything such as ridges, dips, swaged (metal pushed out of place by force) metal on these means that sometime in the past, an overpressure round was fired in the rifle or that wear has went through the case hardened surface to the softer material below. The first make the bolt hard to operate, the second is more subtle but increases the headspace of the rifle beyond use and it is not economically fixable. In the example below, this is where the original Chilean 95 receiver was not designed for 7.62 Nato pressure levels and the lug recesses deformed in the receiver under the pressure loads created ridges and depressions in the receiver lug recesses. This is not fixable and the rifle is now unsafe to fire in the example below. And you cannot grind ridges or restore material to the lug recesses without having the whole receiver reheat treated which is not economical when Sarco is selling identical receivers for about $20 bucks and $99 at the last check for whole actions.

Example of the first kind of lug recess setback from Cast Boolits forum 95ring3-vi.jpg
 
Well, it was probably rust welded by time. You need to check your receiver bottom for any sign of twisting--the bottom of the receiver should be perfectly flat and plumb. The problem with removing a barrel without a specific action wrench and barrel vise is that the receiver can get twinked a bit which can affect future accuracy. The receivers on these are pretty soft inside with case hardening on the outside surfaces. If you can, take a picture from the barrel end of the receiver (the breech end). In particular, since you have the barrel off, you are looking for signs on the locking lug recesses in the receiver--bulges, dips, displaced metal, etc. A little honest wear is ok but anything such as ridges, dips, swaged (metal pushed out of place by force) metal on these means that sometime in the past, an overpressure round was fired in the rifle or that wear has went through the case hardened surface to the softer material below. The first make the bolt hard to operate, the second is more subtle but increases the headspace of the rifle beyond use and it is not economically fixable. In the example below, this is where the original Chilean 95 receiver was not designed for 7.62 Nato pressure levels and the lug recesses deformed in the receiver under the pressure loads created ridges and depressions in the receiver lug recesses. This is not fixable and the rifle is now unsafe to fire in the example below. And you cannot grind ridges or restore material to the lug recesses without having the whole receiver reheat treated which is not economical when Sarco is selling identical receivers for about $20 bucks and $99 at the last check for whole actions.

Example of the first kind of lug recess setback from Cast Boolits forumView attachment 904381
Thank you that is alot of good information and I will take a look at my receiver..!
 
UPDATE...!!!
I checked with my local gunsmith and he was booked out 2 months. So I decided to try and remove the broken shell myself and it worked! I measured the diameter of the 7.57 ammo and it measured out to about 11.90mm (I think an online search showed it at 12.10mm?). The tap I used was 7/16NC14 which measured out to about 11.16 to 11.23. I used the tape to thread into the case about 5/16 of an inch and then took a 7/16 bolt and threaded it into the broken case. I placed the barrel into a vise and lightly taped on the head of the bolt and it pulled out the broken case! I will reread the prior post and see wants the best headspace gauges for the 7mm mauser. I wonder how long this shell has been stuck in the barrel 20, 50 plus years cool history.. 20200331_163619.jpg 20200401_154410.jpg 20200401_154433.jpg 20200401_154456.jpg 20200401_175759.jpg 20200401_180427.jpg 20200401_180449.jpg 20200401_222008.jpg 20200401_222015.jpg
 
Bravo on plan of attack and execution of the plan!

Based on the stuck case headstamp of "PPU", not Cyrillic characters "ППУ", I'd say fifty years is unlikely for how long that case has been stuck in that barrel. Maybe 10 years on the outside? You could send PPU USA an inquiry about when 7X57mm ammo headstamped "PPU" instead of "ППУ" was first imported to the USA to better narrow down the earliest date it could have become stuck in that barrel. Maybe they've kept records of that change landing on US shores for that cartridge.
 
Bravo on plan of attack and execution of the plan!

Based on the stuck case headstamp of "PPU", not Cyrillic characters "ППУ", I'd say fifty years is unlikely for how long that case has been stuck in that barrel. Maybe 10 years on the outside? You could send PPU USA an inquiry about when 7X57mm ammo headstamped "PPU" instead of "ППУ" was first imported to the USA to better narrow down the earliest date it could have become stuck in that barrel. Maybe they've kept records of that change landing on US shores for that cartridge.

The stuck case had no head. The new, primed brass is the PPU from the original post getting plunk tested, after removing the separated case.
 
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