Help buying a safe

[CleanShot]

Hello

I usually research the hell out of every little item I buy but I've trying not to do so with this purchase and instead lean on some collective knowledge. I'm interested in buying two gun safes. Here's what I'm looking for:
Safe 1:
<$500
10 guns plus

Safe 2:
<$150
Ammo storage

Let me state this upfront. I spent a few hours researching but not a ton of time so I know enough to acknowledge I'm not going to get a real safe. My goal is mainly to deter opportunistic thieves and kids. There are some big box store type sporting good shops running specials around this time of year which I'd like to take advantage of the sales if it make sense. Otherwise I'm just going stop fooling myself and go with a simple gun cabinet and accept the fact that a cheapie safe might just be a waste of money. Example Dicks has a 24 gun safe for $400 and although a bit over budget Costco has one for $600.

Thanks for the help!

 

[CB900F]

CleanShot;

For the ammo storage, any lockable container will do. The Home Depot type stores will often have a plastic double wall locker sized unit that'll take a decent padlock on sale. For that matter, you might find a mil-surp double wall locker for a very reasonable cost if you have that type of Army surplus store near you.

At the price point you're at for the gun storage container, make sure it's at least carries the U.L. sticker certifying it as a Residential Security Container, otherwise known as an RSC. If it doesn't have that it's either a true safe or an unrated tin can. You'll have no trouble telling the two apart. A determined 12 year old can pop the very lightweight tin can in mere minutes. It's extremely doubtful that a true safe will be anywhere near that $500.00 figure, particularly if it's big enough to hold long guns.

900F

 

[herrwalther]

$500 for a true blue UL rated RSC is pretty hard to pull off. 500 was the sticker price during a sale on a Winchester 24-gun safe that I bought a few years ago at a Tractor Supply store. Certainly not a place I expected to see a good price on safes, but glad I did. Even has a door organizer panel that holds 6 handguns in pockets. Unless you find a deal similar to this, you might have to bump up your budget to an even 1000.

Ammo storage is easy to do for 150. Stack-On makes a locking cabinet called Ammo bunker that will store a few hundred rounds. Another thing to consider is surplus military ammo cans. If there are any flea markets in the area, keep an eye out. Even though I keep my ammo in the Stack-On, I still picked up two 40mm ammo boxes for about 38 bucks. Could not pass on that good of a deal.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I use a Craftsman rolling tool chest for ammo. Each caliber gets its own drawer. It is lockable. I can use the top for a work surface.

 

[CleanShot]

Thanks for the replies. Great ammo suggestions all around. I'll be use to use those.

As far as the safe, both the Bighorn and the Field & Stream safes are UL RSC and CA DOJ certified. Probably not going to hold up to power tools but likely good enough for my use. I'm just wonder if I could find something better without shelling out a lot more money but if not I'll just go with one of them and move on.

 

[CB900F]

CleanShot;

There's no if's, and's, or but's, about it, an RSC will not stand up to power tools. Noway, nohow, at notime. The short version of the RSC test standard is that it will prevent a forced opening by one person, using hand tools with a lever length no longer than 18" for five minutes. The five minute period is tools on the safe time, not total time though.

900F

 

[FAS1]

I ran across this blog just this morning regarding differences in various safes and RSC's that was written buy a guy just looking to buy a safe apparently. Even if buying an RSC you get what you pay for and just have to weigh the risks vs. benefits as they apply to you.

If it were me, I would buy the inexpensive cabinet for now and keep saving a little while longer so you can increase your budget a little and buy something a little better and more resistant to the thieves.

http://tincanbandit.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-primer-on-gun-safes.html

 

[loose noose]

About a year ago I purchased a Canon Scout model, which is a 24 gun safe, to put my less expensive firearms in. It is fire proof up to 1/2 hour up to 1700 degree heat. It has pockets to store magazines, paper work, and even a pouch to hold a carbine inside the door. I got mine at Sam's Club for right at $499.00. It has plenty of space to store guns and ammo securely for your needs, and will definitely keep the casual thief and youngster out of the stash.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Just read the blog article referenced by FAS1. I'm a retired professional locksmith who specialized in safes & safe sales. If you do a search under my handle here on THR you'll find a lot of posts of course, but there's a lot of good information on safe construction, test standards, and utility as well. Also, the primary safe line I sold was Graffunder.

Most RSC's have sheet metal bodies, those lightweight bodies can get distorted when the unit is either moved or subjected to attack and fire. Most external hinge units can still function in an acceptable manner if that happens in a minor way. You literally couldn't pay me enough to fix that problem with internal hinges.

The Underwriter's Laboratories do indeed provide verifiable tests for insulation and thermal protection. Think hospital fire doors where the insulation must meet code standards. The thermal protection tests for safes are available on their website and may very well be the only testing organization that openly publishes those test parameters. Most RSC's will list a time/temperature figure for their thermal protection, but until you know how the test that produced those figures was performed, you cannot make a valid comparison between two sets of numbers. Omega Labs, Pyro 3000, BTU, all "test organizations" I've seen producing RSC thermal protection numbers. However, I've never run across a salesperson or website that can produce the test parameters for the numbers. In other words, as far as I'm concerned Bob's Backyard Bar-B-Q test would be just as valid (or invalid) as any of the rest of them.

Another thing that amused me about the referenced blog was the mention of kids not being a real threat to the container in question. You might not want to take that statement at face value. If your child has the motivation, then they have all the time in the world to think about how to get in. How to figure out what your combination is. How to pop the door. A determined 12 year old can, and has, forcibly opened a supposedly secure home "safe".

Which brings me to another point. There is no legislation that I'm aware of that mandates what a "safe" is. I could tape six of my old business cards together, put a bent pin across the "door's" corner, and sell it to you as a safe. Caveat Emptor, that latin adage to let the buyer beware, is a saying that has teeth in it in the wonderful world of buying a home security safe. The hard truth is, you don't really know how good the unit you bought is, until it has to do what you bought it to do. Until it's gone through a total loss home fire, or the door's obviously been pried on but not peeled, all you can do is trust either your own sense of security, or the U.L. test parameters.

900F

 

[jrdolall]

Like most people, my intention is to keep honest people from seeing/stealing my stuff, be it guns, cash, jewelry or whatever. I also want to keep "casual thieves" from making off with valuables by just opening a drawer and dumping out the contents. The fact is that a determined thief/thieves can break into or steal pretty much any safe or "container" that your budget will cover.
One of the really cheap "safes" at Walmart will keep people from walking by and picking up your gun but that is about all. A crow bar will probably open it in about 20 seconds and even bolting them to the floor or wall will not make up for the fact that the flimsy door can easily be twisted. I have two of them and store old junky guns in them. The safes you see at Gander or Bass Pro or Tractor Supply will generally have a bit of fire proof ability and will keep a casual crook from getting your stuff in a hurry. I have two of these and store all my long rifles and many handguns in them along with some paperwork. They are bolted to the floor and wall. I also have two safes that are well over 60 years old that were my father's. They are short and designed to hold paperwork and valuables. I keep really valuable jewelry in them and a few handguns. They are true "safes". Extremely heavy with thick walls and very small interiors for the size.
Bottom line for me is that a determined thief with time and tools can break into or steal just about anything you can buy and certainly anything in the $500 range. Locally I think Tractor Supply has the best assortment on hand behind Gander but Gander tends to be pricey. If it says 10 gun then it really holds 10 single shot 22's without scopes and then only barely. If it says 24 gun then it will not hold a normal assortment of 24 guns.

 

[CleanShot]

Let me be clear, my budget was determined by how much I'm willing to spend based on what I'm protecting, what I'm protecting against, and the likelihood of an occurrence given my area etc. Can I spend more? Yes. Am I willing to? Not unless someone can convince me I need to do so. I'm not protecting against Armageddon nor am I protecting collectors pieces. I just want to be a reasonable owner and show good faith in protecting against possible abuse hence my budget numbers.

CB900F points out that cabinets are too easily pried open by wayward youngsters. I can see that happening undetected and that a concern to me. Power tools are less of a concern. CA DOJ sets some standards as does UL which gives me enough peace of mind.

My budget isn't set in stone but seems I can accomplish my goal with a UL RSC without needing to spend any more. At least that's what I'm gathering. If I'm wrong by all means let me know what I should be targeting.

 

[maxxhavoc]

$500 for a true blue UL rated RSC is pretty hard to pull off. 500 was the sticker price during a sale on a Winchester 24-gun safe that I bought a few years ago at a Tractor Supply store. Certainly not a place I expected to see a good price on safes, but glad I did.

Pay attention to this. I shopped in 5 gunstores, Dicks, Gander Mountain, Academy, and Cabelas for a RSC. I had a list going of stats and prices. I went into Tractor supply for welding rods and came out with a $575 Winchester 24-gun safe that was nearly identical to a $750 model in Academy and Dicks. That's what I have now. If there is a Tractor Supply around you, check them out.

As far as RSC usefulness goes, I live 5 minutes from a Police Substation, and have a monitored home alarm system and a few more surprises I'm not going to put online. Always layer security. I would rather have a safe, but my collection does not contain anything exorbitant.

For cheap ammo lockers, look at truck boxes or "work boxes" at your hardware store of choice. Some of those are sturdier than the stack-on cabinets, and they are pretty cheap in comparison. If you can deal with it being horizontal vs vertical, you can save some money there.

 

[CB900F]

CleanShot;

As long as you know your threat level and are comfortable with what you buy, go with what you wish to. It's an absolute certainty that not everybody needs a Graffunder. However, if a sales person tells you that the "Super Steel Wonder Safe" offers bank-like security, go elsewhere, that's pure B.S. Know what you're getting at the price you want to pay and live with it. Just recognize that even though it's long odds, every once in a while the sky does fall, the Martians do land, and the jihad comes to your block. If my choice were buying a true safe or making sure the kids were fed, I'd make the same decision & get the best RSC I could at the least cost.

900F

 

[CleanShot]

Looks like tractor supply has that Winchester safe on sale for $550. That's another option as well.

 

[jlr1962]

Stack-On makes lots of safes with different brand names on the front. Of course I wish I would have purchased a larger version. Look at the stuff online about the electronic lock safes. Some of them can be opened easily after removing the lock face per the instructions. I don't understand how those keep the same certifications the mechanical lock safes.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

There's already a lot of very good information on this site about electronic vs mechanical dial locks for safes. I, personally, will not trust an import electronic lock to remain trouble free for the life of the safe. Or, in many, many, cases anything even faintly approaching the life of the safe. The U.S. made electronic locks are well made and do have distinct features that may make one more suitable for the user. But, they're not cheap enough to put on a bargain import "safe". Which is not to say that the mechanical dials some of them come with are much better. Cheap is cheap.

900F

 

[CleanShot]

CB900F: Of the option I put on the table I'm leaning towards either the Field & Stream which might total out at around $320 with some coupons I have or the Winchester. Do you have a preference amongst the choices?

 

[sauer1911]

figure out what you need, space wise not cost wise.

Take that figure and double it.

I have 13 pistols/revolvers and 4 rifles. I got a Winchester 24 gun safe. Had it bolted to the cement floor. Winchester's idea of a 24 gun safe is not the same as mine.

I wasted about $500 on "safes" or steel lockers before I got the Winchester. Ended up venting the steel lockers for ammo and loading supplies.

I fell right into the why do it once when you can redo it for 3 times the price trap.

Do it right once, pay they extra and be alot happier in the end.

 

[maxxhavoc]

And remember, it takes 2 times as long to break into 2 RSCs.

 

[CleanShot]

Don't worry 24 gun is more than enough for my <5.

 

[CB900F]

CleanShot;

I don't have a preference between the two due to sheer ignorance. I dealt with Graffunder and AMSEC for the most part for consumer sales. I simply didn't get involved with RSC's in the price range you want to be in because our shop left that market to the mass market big box stores.

Which is not to say that we didn't get involved with opening, repairing, or replacing that type of unit fairly frequently. But for the record, most of the time we could up-sell the customer because the customer wanted to go upscale. Certified ALOA/SAVTA locksmiths who do safe repairs aren't exactly cheap. So when the cost of repair begins to push the original purchase price of the RSC, the point is made about cheap being cheap. If the consumer could open it themselves, they wouldn't have been calling us.

ALOA is to locksmithing as the AMA is to the medical profession. SAVTA is a sub-set of ALOA, the Safe And Vault Technicians Assoc.

900F

 

[CleanShot]

Costco's return policy is that if you're not completely satisfied with a product you can return if for a full refund. I never abuse that policy but I think dissatisfaction with a safe that doesn't do the simple take of locking and unlocking is justifiable. Winchester has a 9 year warranty for $75.

 

[FAS1]

CA DOJ sets some standards as does UL which gives me enough peace of mind.

CA DOJ has no standard for things like the integrity of the bolt supports. That is usually the first thing to fail when prying something like a Chinese made RSC. It really doesn't take much. Just pay more attention to things like that while shopping than any CA DOJ approval list.

Edited to add that where and how you bolt down your RSC will also make a big difference. Be sure and anchor solidly to the floor and put it in a corner. If you can enclose both sides by walls it will also help secure it even better.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe

 

[jlr1962]

I hope I never come home to the situation in the previous post. Knocks on wood.

 

[DavidG]

SturdySafe?