Help me out please- where did "volumetric grains" come from?

[BCRider]

OK, we're into the whole volumetric grains vs weight grains thing again over in the Revolver forum. Check out Page 2;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7886253#post7886253

So help me out here. When I google for "black powder measuring" I end up at a Chuckhawk's page where a fellow named Randy Wakeman lamblasts the whole volumetric thing saying that it's a load of bushwa.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

Other than this "factual" reference I can't really find anything that looks like it's more than just passing on the whole program by faith and rote.

I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before but I can't find a really good thread where there's solid references to how the whole volumetric "grains" came about.

Is it because a particular grind of BP weighs 30 grains by weight and we picked that volume to be 30 "grains" of volume? If not then what sort of standard are we basing this volumetric measurement on? And just what grain is the basis of the weight grains unit? But then where's that leave the use of weight grains for other uses such as weighing gemstones and the like? Or do they stick with carats or some other unit? Is grains used for measuring anything other than classic firearms items?

Sorry if this is just bringing out the dirty laundry over again. Maybe a final authouritiative posting with all the details and solid factual origins and reasons could be posted on the "Black Powder Fundementals" sticky thread so we can just refer to it there in the future.

 

[mustanger]

I think it's like when we use ounces for both wieght and for liquid measure. Grains when reffering to wieght means one thing. and when refering to volume it means another. I think because black powder is the same volumetric measure worked good for loading. (and it would be easier to carry a volumetric measure on the trail, compared to scales) However because smokeless powder is so varied it needs a more precise way of measuring. I am not authorative on this, just my thinking.
Just thought of something, my Lee loader for 32-20 has a dipper, that measures the powder by volume. I have to have a different dipper for each type of powder. They are not marked by grains.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I have been involved in heated arguments about this very subject, I am now loading black powder cartridges so do I go by weight or volume?

Here is a link to some useful information, the second chart shows the relation of volume in grains to volume in the metric system ie: Cubic Centimeters (same as millilitres)

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

 

[Loyalist Dave]

We inherited it from England.

It's from the Avoirdupois system of mass measurement, which apparently goes back to Edward I and the 1300's.

A grain was originally either a grain of wheat or of barley (there are tales of either)..., from that we got a system where a "pound" was 6992 grains, and was made up of 16 parts which we call ounces, and a larger unit called a "stone" of 14 pounds. Queen Elizabeth rounded the pound up to the current 7000 grains, and also (iirc) divided the ounce into 16 "drams".

You sometimes see "dram equivalent" on the outside of a box of shotgun shells, right? Well that goes back to when folks judged the new smokeless shotshells by their old black powder equivalent..., so 7000 grains in a pound = 438 grains to the ounce (well 437.5) which = 27⅓ grains to the dram..., so when you see a shotshell box that says "2½ dram equivalent" it should be shooting the shot at a velocity very close to what you'd get if you loaded that same amount of shot over (27.33 x 2.5) = 68 grains of BP (well probably 70 grains).

Now if you take a 20 gauge or "20 bore" and so divide a pound of lead by 20 you get a ball weight of 350 grains, but if you shrink the ball a bit for easy loading in a muzzleloader, you get like 330 grains of lead which is also about 3/4 of an ounce...

There were other systems out there, one system had a pound of 16 ounces but of 7200 grains so the ounces were just a tad heavier, there was also the Tower Pound of 12 ounces, and all of this dates back to a time when lots of international trading was going on, and they had to start someplace to get standard units of measure...

LD

 

[J-Bar]

The cartridge case itself is the measure when using black powder. Fill the case up to the point that the powder will be slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. Place in gun. Pull trigger. Enjoy.

 

[BCRider]

J-bar, that's fine for a cartridge gun. But what about a muzzle loader? Fill to the top other than leaving a bit of room for the ball and patch?

The whole point is that I've got one guy saying that the volume thing is hogwash and that things like .44-40 and 45-70 are/were loaded based on weight and that there's no such thing as "grains of volume".

Soooo.... I'm left here wondering if our volume grains are simply what the volume is of X grains of BP by weight. Or is there another actual volumetric grains unit that has fallen into disuse and out of knowledge other than with us black powder folks.

________Pause time____________
OK, I tried one more time to google with different key words that were suggested in the latest replies. Accoring to;
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432071
it would seem that the grains are based on the weight of the black powder and not the volume. But since BP is consistent enough it's understood that the volume of a 20 grain weight of black powder is what we also call a 20 grain volume.

So it really is as messed up as that Randay Wakeman says it is. Because if we lightly pour X grains of powder into a measure it'll be rather lightly packed vs actually tapping and vibrating the measure to allow the powder to pack in more tightly. Or another way of looking at it. Rifle BPCR loads use a drop tube to aid in packing more weight of powder into the limited volume of the cases. Then on top of that we compress it even more. With the thicker brass cases of today and heavier bases I understand that we can't cram 40 gns into a 44-40 or 70 grains into a 45-70 anymore. But without the use of the drop tube as I understand it we'd be lucky to get much more than half of that powder into those cartridges. At least not witout some sort of vibrator to aid in settling the powder into the case.

So I'm gathering that the proper way is to actually weigh the powder and then figure out an easy AND CONSISTENT way of pouring that much out each time.

And it seems that I owe Driftwood Johnson an apology.

 

[Jim Watson]

I lambaste the "volumetric grains" business at every opportunity.

There is no doubt that gunpowder, then and now, is normally measured volumetrically for convenience sake. But it is properly done with a volumetric measure calibrated to deliver the desired weight of powder, commonly expressed in grains in the USA, grams in Europe.

I always quote the Sharps Rifle Co of about 130 years ago, "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." And I do it that way.

I think the "volumetric grains" gained a lot of traction when Pyrodex and the other fake powders came out. They are of lower bulk density but higher energy content than real black powder. So a volumetric measure that delivers 70 grains of black powder will only hold about 56 grains of Pyrodex, but the muzzle velocity will be approximately the same.
It is a lot easier for Those People to say "70 grains volume of Pyrodex" than "a 70 grain black powder measure full of Pyrodex." Or to tell the user to load 56 grains of Pyrodex and expect him to understand that will run his .45-70 normally.

 

[andrewstorm]

on the trail there was not a lot of places to weigh powder

So powder measures were the norm,volume only became a term after the 1898 original sub was invented (bullseye) then people started weighing powder ,the case was the volumetric measure of the day,as any air space between the powder and projectile would have been an obstruction.just an opinion.

 

[arcticap]

I believe that it was established in other threads that the volume of 1 grain (by weight) of water almost exactly equals the volume of 1 grain (by weight) of black powder.
That's how the standardization of volumetric grain measurement came about for powders, based on the volume of water and not the volume of any particular brand of black powder.
Black powder doesn't have a standard weight but water does.
Swiss weighs differently from Goex, but a powder measure based on the volume and the weight of 1 grain of water is standardized and close enough to the same weight and volume of "black powder".

And that's why the capacity of a cartridge case is expressed in grains of water.
The capacity (or volume) is expressed as the volume of water in weight grains which equals the volume measured by a standardized powder measuring device which we use for muzzle loading.

The 9x19mm Parabellum has 0.86 ml (13.3 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

...The volume grain is best likened (as before) to a convenience measurement. It was conceived in a day when one could not actually weigh charges out. Can you imagine trying to weigh 65 grains of musket powder in the heat of battle? What one does is to weigh out the needed number of powder grains by weighing out the same number of grains of water and then using the same volume of powder as the water, and that is all there is to it. It is best described as using the bulk specific gravity as a measuring tool. It is simpler to do than to write about....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=273817&highlight=MILLILITER[/B][/SIZE]

Also see these threads:

Newbie question:" 30 grains by volume"?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=516221&highlight=volumetric+grain

confused by volumetric grains

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432071&highlight=volumetric+grain

 

[gunboat57]

Whenever I've loaded black powder cartridges or wanted the most accuracy from my Hawken, I always weigh each powder charge. The amount of energy released in a charge is proportional to how much mass of powder there is, not how much volume it happens to take up. And those who have used B P for awhile know how shaking or drop tubing can really change the density of a powder charge.

 

[[email protected]]

I and others I shoot with weigh our charges. 50 grs of Goex FFF is 50 grs.
This on a scale. Just makes it eaiser to keep track of things.

 

[alsaqr]

Did some experimenting with weighed charges when i got back into muzzleloading in 1999. My 100 yard five shots groups improved by about 1/8" using weighed charges: It was not worth the additional effort to weigh every charge; so i went back to volumetric charges. The deer and hogs don't mind.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

This is where it came from:



As I attempted to explain over on the other thread, this is the type of powder measure most often used in the field when loading muzzle loaders with Black Powder. I had one just like it when I bought my first Cap & Ball revolver way back in 1968.

Here is a closeup of the adjustable slider in one of these things.



It is very simple to use. You set the sliding bar to the number of grains you want and lock it in place with the knurled screw. This one is set for 30 grains, which is the typical powder charge I use with a 44 caliber 1860 Colt Army reproduction. The other end is a combination spout and leveling device. You hold it vertically and pour loose powder from a flask or a horn into the open end so that the powder overflows just a tiny bit. Then you swivel the end shut, which scrapes off a little bit of powder onto the ground, leveling off the charge inside and making all charges as equal as possible. Then you upend it and pour the charge down the muzzle or down the chambers of a C&P pistol.

So much for the use.

I can assure you, that when I first started shooting C&B in 1968 I had never heard of anything called Grains/Volume. It simply did not exist. As has already been stated, the Grain is a unit of mass in the Avoirdupois system. The grain unit has been established for a long time now as exactly 7000 to the pound.

What happened was at some point Pyrodex was introduced as the first Black Powder Substitute. Whether by design or by accident, Pyrodex does not weigh the same as Black Powder. It weighs considerably less. If one was charging muzzle loaders with the same grain weight of Pyrodex as one used for Black Powder the result would be a lot higher velocity and a lot more recoil. And perhaps some damage to the gun. However since the normal procedure was to use a powder measure of this type, it was very simple to set the measure to say, 30 grains, pour in the Pyrodex, and dump it in the gun no different than with Black Powder.

A Pyrodex charge measured by volume with this method will have approximately the same explosive power as a charge of real Black Powder despite the difference in actual weight.

That's where this whole stupid (In My Humble Opinion) business of grains/volume came from. Simply shorthand for using a volumetric Black Powder powder measure in the field to measure out a Black Powder Substitute that did not weigh the same as real Black Powder.

Nothing to do with the mass of water, just a simple convenience for muzzle loading shooters.

Bear in mind, this all happened back when a lot of us were first experimenting with Black Powder and the substitutes in muzzle loading guns. Not very many shooters were putting Black Powder into cartridges in those days. Now that a lot of us are also putting Black Powder and the substitutes into cartridges, stupid grains/volume has risen its ugly head and caused all kinds of problems. We have guys asking questions like, how many grains/volume of Goex FFg should I be putting into my cartridges.

It is very simple. Forget grains/volume. It does not exist in any scientific table. It is simply a convenience for using Black Powder in the field with muzzle loaders. If you want to put Black Powder into a cartridge, pour in enough so that when the bullet is seated there is no air space left and the base of the bullet has compressed the powder by about 1/16" to 1/8". That's all there is to it. That is the correct amount of powder for that combination of cartridge and bullet. Now dump out that perfect amount of powder and weigh it. That is the correct weight of powder, using that brand of powder, that granulation, and that lot number for that cartridge. Once you have weighed it, you can either weigh all your charges, or you can use that weight as a base number to set a volumetric measure, whether it is a dipper, a Black Powder powder measure, or whatever to dump the correct load of powder for that cartridge.

If you would like to see this method described with some photos to help explain it, here is a link:


http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18257.0.html


If you are using a substitute, like APP, 777, Pyrodex, or whatever, use the same method. Just follow the manufacturer's instructions. No compression for 777, light compression for APP, and whatever Hodgdon recommends for Pyrodex.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I wanted to add a couple of more thoughts to this, but the previous post is already long enough.

Just for the fun of it, I weighed the charges my old adjustable powder measure was throwing when nominally set for 30 grains. I did this using Schuetzen FFg. I measured five charges and weighed each one. Here are the results.

30.2 grains
30.8 grains
30.6 grains
30.4 grains
30.2 grains

Clearly, a powder measure of this type is not super accurate. If you want super accuracy, either weigh your charges, or use a powder measure designed to provide good repeatability with Black Powder. When I am loading Black Powder rounds for Cowboy Action Shooting this is the set up I use. A Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on one of my Hornady L&L AP presses. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 44 Russian this way.



I have several of the brass rotors that the Lyman BP powder measure uses and I have set each one and labeled it for the powder charge I want for the particular cartridge and bullet combination that I am loading. When I first set the rotors, I use the method I outlined to determine what the powder charge will be. I do weigh the charges each rotor throws, but only as a reference number so I have an idea of how much powder I am actually throwing.



In my experience, different powders weigh different amounts. My favorite charge for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC as dipped out by hand with a Lee dipper. I keep a chart, just for reference, of what this charge weighs with different powders.

2.2CC = about 34.5 grains FFg Goex
2.2CC = about 37 grains FFg Elephant
2.2CC = about 33 grains FFg Schuetzen

Yes, I am hedging by saying 'about'. Like any hand operation, dipped powder charges will vary. That data has been averaged.

In truth, if I was making up Black Powder cartridges for precise accuracy, I would weigh each charge, and I would keep data on not only the brand and granulation of the powder, but I would also include the lot number. But for my purposes, 2.2CC of whatever brand of FFg I have on hand is plenty good enough.

Not so when I load 45-70 for long range. I work more accurately for that.

Here is one more photo. This is the powder flask I use when I am shooting Cap & Ball these days, I do not use the one with the slider. Many of you will be familiar with this type of flask. There is a spring loaded gate at the base of the spout. To use it you close the end of the spout with the tip of your finger, you tilt the flask upside down, then you open the gate with your thumb. That allows a preset volume of powder to fill the spout. The spout on this flask is the so called '30 grain' spout.




Just for the fun of it, I threw five charges with it and weighed them using Schuetzen FFg.

30.4 grains
30.0 grains
29.6 grains
29.6 grains
29.3 grains

Plenty close enough for shooting a C&B. Not so good for long range accuracy. When I load 45-70 I usually use the Lyman Black Powder powder measure. Much more repeatable.

 

[J-Bar]

My post #5 was in response to post #3, in which Skinny 1950 was discussing cartridges specifically. I should have quoted his message in my reply to avoid confusion.

But one could deduce that since blackpowder cartridges are to be filled to capacity, leaving no air gaps under the bullet, that the volume of powder is the key factor, not the weight for that application.

As the target shooters have pointed out, the total mass of powder is more precisely measured by weight than volume, if that precision is important to you. It's not that important to me...I use dippers.

 

[ClemBert]

When I reload cartridges with BP I set my powder dispenser to volumetrically throw a weighed charge. Specifically, if I want 40 grains of FFFg I calibrate the powder dispenser to throw a charge equal to 40 grains by weight. For FFFg this is close enough for guberment work. Ideally, FFg is equivalent in volume AND weight when measured in grains. However, FFFg is close enough. For muzzle loading I use a handheld volumetric measure which is not as accurate as my Lee powder dispenser from charge-to-charge.

 

[MCgunner]

Is the concept of "grain equivalents' of BP so much different from "dram equivalents" of BP that were always printed on shotgun shell boxes when I was a kid?

I load smokeless by volume every time I break out my Dillon square deal to run off a hundred rounds or 5 of 9x19. I also load with a Lee Pro 1000 and I use the Lee measure above for rifle loads, quite accurate. Nothing wrong with measuring by volume and I have loads in .257 Roberts I measure by volume that shoot 1/2 MOA. BP is MUCH more forgiving of error, too.

 

[Cosmoline]

From what I've been able to observe shooting the smoke poles and the .50-70, the key is *consistency* above all other factors. As long as you're doing the same exact thing every time, the method you use to measure your loads does not matter much if at all. So if you use precise volumetric loads every time, drop the same length at the same rate, and pack to the same depth you'll have consistent results. You could weigh the grains on a scale each time but the weight per se isn't the key part (within practical and safety parameters of course). Weighing each charge only makes a difference if your volumetric measure is not precise enough.

 

[arcticap]

It is very simple. Forget grains/volume. It does not exist in any scientific table.

It's not important whether everyone recognizes that a volumetric grain exists.
Perhaps we invented it here on thehighroad, but I seriously doubt it.
Nearly all of us are currently using it when we use our powder measures and know what it means.
That's why the case capacities of cartridges are expressed as the volume of grains of water.
The measurement exists and it's in use.
What does the 13.3 grains of H20 case capacity for the 9mm Luger cartridge case have to do with the invention of Pyrodex? IMHO Pyrodex didn't lead to the use of volumetric grains of water as a standard unit of measurement which it has become.

The 9x19mm Parabellum has 0.86 ml (13.3 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

 

[Jim Watson]

As best I can tell, the use of water to measure case capacity came about in the 1960s with the Powley PSI Computer. I don't think it was a factor in the 19th century and the coincidental density of gunpowder close to 1 vs water not of concern to users.

But if you want to call your powder measure "grains volume" and your ammuntion feeding device a "clip", it is fine with me.

 

[BCRider]

Jim, if some calculator or other gear came out in the 1960's I seriously doubt that they would dream up a new way of measuring volume just to maintain a connection with some past and now largely forgotten standard. I'm sure by that point in time they would have gone with CC's or milliliters unless there was some form of established reason to use a volume equivalent of grains of water. A reason that appears to be largely forgotten.

I'd sure love to see an old book on shooting sports from the mid 1800's and see what is written about this.

 

[J-Bar]

I think this one came out in 1940 originally, and it's a pretty good read:

http://www.amazon.com/Muzzle-Loadin...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326936056&sr=1-1

The author, Ned Roberts, is the .257 Roberts fellow. He started out on muzzleloaders.

 

[Omnivore]

Jim Watson nailed it in Post #7

And that's all there is to be said about it.

 

[Jim Watson]

reason to use a volume equivalent of grains of water.

Maybe because anybody doing experimental reloading would have a powder scale calibrated in grains and not precision volumetric containers graduated in The French System. A hypodermic syringe scrounged from the doctor - if he let you have one and did not take you as a dope fiend - would not be precise enough for the work.

 

[arcticap]

What's really funny is that folks will criticize a method of measurement for being imprecise when black powder itself doesn't have a precise formula, ingredients, granulation, potency or density.
It can range from fluffy homemade "stuff" to any number of manufactured inconsistencies comprised of only who knows what the exact ingredients or characteristics are.
That's why I believe that a scientifically based volumetric powder measure wouldn't be based on a weighed volume with as much variation as black powder has but rather on a precisely weighed volume of water.
The main source of imprecision is the black powder itself.
Folks can weigh it all they want, but even each granule has a different shape, size and burn charactistic.
Maybe or maybe not so different enough that it matters anyway...
...just like when measuring powder by volume with a powder measure.