Just google Toby bridges and Randy Wakeman. You'll find enough entertaining reading to take you up to summer.
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Discussion about Muzzleloading Pressure, Recoil, and Velocity posted in chuckhawks.com
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Snidely70431
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Will do.
It doesn't really matter what data you dug up supporting why you think it's safe to use nitro powders in place of BP. Muzzleloaders to 99.999% of the people associate those weapons to the use of BP, not nitro, so I don't see the reason for your post. Big deal, so you found some light loads of nitro would be acceptable in muzzleloaders. How you gonna feel when some novice sees your post and overloads his ole muzzleloader with nitro and blows it up ? Well, I saw it on the internet, so it must have been safe. No, not what he was loading. Maybe it would be a good, or worth while post on some other forum, but not not this one. Just my 2 cents.
hawg
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Oh ya, Randy. He's a real expert.
An ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
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Snidely70431
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IMHO, what is dangerous is people who think BP substitutes are really BP substitutes, when they are really not, and generate much higher pressures than true black powder. For instance, with a Knight Sabot, a 400 grain projectile and 120 grains of GOEX BP, a pressure of 23,700 psi was generated in a 50 caliber, 22", 1:24 twist test barrel. Same test barrel, same projectile, but 120 grains of Pyrodex Select, generates 33,500 psi. Only way to know this is to have a copy of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual. Everything I've read says that Triple 7 and Blackhorn 209 are more energetic than Pyrodex.
I won't argue that, you're right. But then I don't go there. I shoot BP rifles and pistols with PRB and RBs in revolvers. All are shot with BP. And there isn't any 120gr charges in my rifles. 90 to a 100 is max in my bigger bores - 54 and 62. I go for accuracy and keep my ranges for what muzzle loaders were intended for.
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Snidely70431
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Sensible, but my feeling is that you are a minority. Where I live, in southeastern Louisiana, real BP is almost impossible to get because of the storage requirements. Lots of people posting on this forum want to shoot at extended ranges with light bullets (sabots, of course) and well past BP velocities. BP is capable of extended ranges ( https://usarmorment.com/pdf/4570a.pdf ), but with heavy bullets and moderate velocities. To each his own, I say.
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Boldface added.
Snidely, have you tried contacting Jack's Powder Keg in Marksville, LA? They were a GOEX distributor, but they MAY have a line on some real BP for you. Might be worth a call to find out. Number is (888)245-9631. I have never bought from them but my brother did some years back. He said it was very interesting to talk with the owner and they were good folks to deal with.
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Snidely70431
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Marksville is a long way from where I live, which is almost to the Mississippi line. It's pretty close to Alexandria, LA. Also, I just learned that the last American manufacturer of BP, GOEX, is closing its doors.
hawg
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Has closed it's doors. In January Estes Energetics bought the Goex facility in Minden La. They will still make sporting powder but it will probably be a year or more before they start production.
I have read there are differences when dealing with smokeless powder. All of this may be true but maybe someone here who knows more can tell me if firmly ramming a tight projectile over most smokeless powder charges causing the charge to be tightly packed is a good idea.
My understanding is smokeless powder sits somewhat loosely in cartridge cases with the bullet seated at a more or less precise depth using a hotter primer (longer burning ?) as needed to ignite the charge. My understanding is some smokeless powders need more space than others and igniting them (some ?) when tightly packed can cause detonation.
Failure to precisely regulate the weight or volume of a smokeless charge can also be very hazardous. There is much less margin for error. Then there is also a controversial subject that using too small a charge can also be dangerous.
I don't doubt the article. I think it is true that powder manufacturers of both smokeless and/or black power black powder subs do a lackluster job of seeking and providing useful data for muzzleloaders. I can however figure out that smokeless powder is not something that you should just pour out of a flask using crude dated measuring techniques down the barrel of a mild steel gun before ramming a projectile on top causing the smokeless powder to be tightly packed.
I have read about a person who would precisely regulate smokeless charges in cap and ball revolvers. He would seat the ball to a precise depth. He would worry about the projectiles in the adjacent chambers moving out of spec during recoil. There is also the trouble of igniting the charges that need a hotter prime. A mistake will easily blow a mild steel gun. I read he gave it up because it was way too much of a hassle.
These powders are made to be loaded in a cartridge case of the right charge to size ratio with the bullet securely crimped to the prescribed depth with a properly rated primer and brass that expands to seal every nook and cranny in the head spaced chamber when fired. Modern guns with arsenal grade steel rated for use with smokeless powders have a much better margin of safety if something went wrong despite all these multiple safeguards.
Charges in wider barrels, especially shotguns, generate significantly less pressure than in smaller diameter barrels. Read the data it surprised that a significantly less powerful firearm can generate far more pressure (drastic) inside the bore only because it is a smaller diameter than the more powerful firearm.
Maybe someone who knows can answer, is the powder in smokeless shotgun shells tightly packed or somewhat loose ?
I think safely using smokeless powder in mild steel muzzleloaders is easier said than done.
My understanding is smokeless powder sits somewhat loosely in cartridge cases with the bullet seated at a more or less precise depth using a hotter primer (longer burning ?) as needed to ignite the charge. My understanding is some smokeless powders need more space than others and igniting them (some ?) when tightly packed can cause detonation.
Failure to precisely regulate the weight or volume of a smokeless charge can also be very hazardous. There is much less margin for error. Then there is also a controversial subject that using too small a charge can also be dangerous.
I don't doubt the article. I think it is true that powder manufacturers of both smokeless and/or black power black powder subs do a lackluster job of seeking and providing useful data for muzzleloaders. I can however figure out that smokeless powder is not something that you should just pour out of a flask using crude dated measuring techniques down the barrel of a mild steel gun before ramming a projectile on top causing the smokeless powder to be tightly packed.
I have read about a person who would precisely regulate smokeless charges in cap and ball revolvers. He would seat the ball to a precise depth. He would worry about the projectiles in the adjacent chambers moving out of spec during recoil. There is also the trouble of igniting the charges that need a hotter prime. A mistake will easily blow a mild steel gun. I read he gave it up because it was way too much of a hassle.
These powders are made to be loaded in a cartridge case of the right charge to size ratio with the bullet securely crimped to the prescribed depth with a properly rated primer and brass that expands to seal every nook and cranny in the head spaced chamber when fired. Modern guns with arsenal grade steel rated for use with smokeless powders have a much better margin of safety if something went wrong despite all these multiple safeguards.
Charges in wider barrels, especially shotguns, generate significantly less pressure than in smaller diameter barrels. Read the data it surprised that a significantly less powerful firearm can generate far more pressure (drastic) inside the bore only because it is a smaller diameter than the more powerful firearm.
Maybe someone who knows can answer, is the powder in smokeless shotgun shells tightly packed or somewhat loose ?
I think safely using smokeless powder in mild steel muzzleloaders is easier said than done.
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Ok in GENERAL terms- most smokeless loads will fill the case to over 50% full and some will have light compression of the powder. In the world of smokeless powder, there is a thing known as Burn Rate meaning different types/grades/brands of powder burn at different speeds. Fast stuff is usually for pistol while slow stuff is for rifles. Again, this is in general terms.
In most centerfire cartridges, in GENERAL, a less than 50% fill will result in poor accuracy for a variety of reasons.
Primers- slow powders and larger charges, in GENERAL, need a magnum primer for consistent ignition.
The margin for error, in GENERAL, in smokeless varies. This is the result of using differing charge amounts, compressed v less than 50%, shape of the cartridge (straight wall v bottle neck), weight of the bullet, type of bullet, temperature, seating depth of the bullet relative to the rifling. One common error seen by novice reloaders is to use a fast burning pistol powder in a rifle, usually with disasterous results. Another common error in loads with less than a 50% fill is a double charge, ie twice the amount of powder called for in the load data. This happens mainly in handguns, again disaster ensues.
So shooting smokeless in a muzzleloader, while it "is possible", there are far too many variables compared to straight black powder. The common misconception is that "you can't over load a muzzleloader". In GENERAL with real black powder, that's not too far from the truth as the burn rate and pressure of the holy black is pretty constant between brands. The only way to increase pressure is to switch from 2f to 3f to 4f. Yes, pressure goes up because more of the surface area of the powder is exposed as granule size falls but in nearly every case, this isn't catastrophic. That's why you can get away with being less precise about charge levels with black powder but if you want accuracy, you'll be just as precise about loading as a person using smokeless.
Two different worlds, two different sets of parameters. As once said, "stray but a little" and bad things can happen if you don't really know what you're doing.
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Snidely70431
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Thank you for the link to bs-bp.forumotion.com . Interesting site.
Eyrie G. Dogg
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Ol' Toby sounds like a one-man crime wave and a certified screwball.
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