Why can’t you load muzzleloader with smokeless powder?

[woodnbow]

@mjsdwash not an engineer. Just an old guy with 8 mostly functional fingers and both thumbs intact..


Btw, “just measure the air space” etc. will get you into trouble… the bullet is ALWAYS seated on the charge. There’s no other way to control “case volume” which is what we’re talking about and it is critical. You cannot for instance, load a maximum .300 WSM load (80grain case capacity) into a .308 case (56 grains case capacity) and then fire it in a .308 rifle of identical make to your .300 Short Magnum. Even if it will fit into the case, internal case volume is critical and a very small change has huge impact.

BTW, 10-15k is quite adequate pressure to scare the crap out of me… it’s been a while but I believe the HE grenades fired from M79 operated under 15k.

the folks at modern muzzleloaders can explain all of this much better than I can. It’s interesting stuff and I remember back in the day much time and money spent on development of caseless rifles and ammunition for military use. There are some important advantages to the technology.

 

[Bill Raby]

It would be nice if all muzzleloader hunting seasons would go to flintlock only with open sights. The whole thing of muzzleloaders for people that don't actually want to shoot muzzleloaders is just weird.

 

[gwpercle]

If you do it ... make a video of what happens ...

But I wouldn't advise anyone to do it ... sometimes you can't stop some things once set in motion .
And do the testing remotely ... did I need to say that ?
Gary

 

[woodnbow]

It would be nice if all muzzleloader hunting seasons would go to flintlock only with open sights. The whole thing of muzzleloaders for people that don't actually want to shoot muzzleloaders is just weird.

There’s another forum which discusses only firearms and replicas of firearms in use prior to the self contained cartridge era. That would include percussion arms, conical or round ball projectiles and primitive telescopic sights. Those, it seems to me would be reasonable limits for primitive arms seasons. I haven’t hunted in the muzzleloader season for some time, most of the kids and grandkids hunt in the rifle seasons so I just use the “primitive” gear in modern seasons. It’s not a significant handicap.

 

[Bazoo]

Interesting replies. Thanks all.

I would think that the old timers would have experimented with this but I’ve not seen any in my readings.

I don’t own a ML currently, so no chance of me trying it. But I’ve had my buddies ML a few years for hunting and I got to thinking about why you can’t load it with smokeless.

I guess pressure testing it would be the big hiccup for safety.

I’m not a ML enthusiast, I’m a reloading enthusiast though. I wonder if quickloads could be programmed to estimate the pressure of a ML chamber with the seating depth variations. I don’t have QL either.

 

[AK Hunter]

Just thinking if one starts with a slow powder & a low gr load but then I think how would one check for pressure signs like we do in metallic reloading? That's why you get only one chance at too much load. In metallic reloading we get a bulged case or a blown primer not a blown barrel. It's just not worth the chance.

 

[hawg]

Interesting replies. Thanks all.
I would think that the old timers would have experimented with this but I’ve not seen any in my readings.

No disrespect to you but you don't get to be an old timer by being stupid.

 

[Bazoo]

No disrespect to you but you don't get to be an old timer by being stupid.

Elmer Keith did what many considered at the time, and would consider now stupid, but he lived to a ripe old age.

When I say old timers I don’t mean simply old folks. I mean Mann, Keith, Hatcher, Ackley, those folks that did lots of experimenting and blew up guns, those that furthered our understanding of ballistics and brought into the world what we have now.

I haven’t seen any articles about loading ML with smokeless from them folks or others of their ilk. Is that because MLing was dead at their time or because they knew something i don’t.

 

[JeffG]

Not just the old “you’ll blow yourself up”.

Actually, that's enough of a reason for me.

 

[Mosin77]

Elmer Keith did what many considered at the time, and would consider now stupid, but he lived to a ripe old age.

When I say old timers I don’t mean simply old folks. I mean Mann, Keith, Hatcher, Ackley, those folks that did lots of experimenting and blew up guns, those that furthered our understanding of ballistics and brought into the world what we have now.

I haven’t seen any articles about loading ML with smokeless from them folks or others of their ilk. Is that because MLing was dead at their time or because they knew something i don’t.

Probably both. The exciting developments were occurring in the guns everyone was using… smokeless cartridge guns. Muzzleloaders ceased to be interesting to the gun aficionados or shooting public in the 1870s and weren’t fashionable again until living history enthusiasts began to have widespread interest in the 40s-50s, by which time it was explicitly about the practices of yesteryear, so black powder and a patched round ball were en vogue.

 

[Bazoo]

Actually, that's enough of a reason for me.

I heard that argument from some people in regards to metallic reloading.

My buddy had a case head separation in a 22 rimfire while we were shooting. When I told mom about it, the first thing she said was your reloads blew up his gun?

The point is, just because everyone assumes you’ll blow yourself up doesn’t mean you will. Ive been loading over a decade and haven’t blown a gun up. I’m a meticulous reloader.

 

[Speedo66]

Theoretically, a gun manufacturer could list a specific smokeless powder and specific weight charge for a specific weight projectile. But why would they?

Some yahoo will substitute some other powder or some other weight projectile and kaboom! His lawyers would have a field day, "you said it was safe with smokeless powder!".

I blew up a cap gun as a kid by scraping open paper caps and gathering up the powder from a whole roll into a "cartridge case" designed for one cap. Not designed for my tinkering though. If roll cap powder can do that, wouldn't want to put smokeless where it wasn't supposed to be.

 

[Slamfire]

I remember reading about all the lawsuits against smokeless muzzle loader manufacturer's. Users pour too much powder down the tube, and the pressure curve on smokeless powder is much more sensitive to powder charge variations than black powder, and of course their rifles blew up all to hell.

Then the injured parties sued the maker, ofcourse, as we are all victims, and no one is responsible for their actions.

I did find a Savage muzzleloading rifle warning: https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=safety_notice_muzzle

Out of production: The Real Tragedy Behind the Demise of the Savage 10ML-II

but there are smokeless muzzle loading rifle makers:

Bad Bull

If you are the sort of fearless person like Zef Eisenberg, then go get one. Zef almost died in a high speed motorcycle wreck. He hit the big one in his high speed Porsche attempt. The link says his car was airborne for 513 meters before it crashed. Zef must have been having the time of his life!

 

[Bazoo]

I found this video that I think is pretty good. From my experience as a handloader I don’t see any errors or misconceptions.

 

[crstrode]

It is also possible to run nitro-methane dragster fuel in your daily driver.

 

[AlexanderA]

You want to shoot nitro powders, then buy a cartridge gun that was intended for smokeless powders.

Let's not forget that early cartridge guns such as the Colt SAA, the S&W Schofield, and the Trapdoor Springfield, among many others, were originally intended for black powder. Smokeless loads have been developed that are safe for them.

The cartridge controls the variables when using smokeless powder. The problem with using a muzzleloader with smokeless is that the gun itself, in effect, becomes the cartridge. It's much more difficult to control the variables when loading a muzzleloader in the field, than when reloading cartridges on the loading bench. If we could do all our smokeless muzzleloading in a laboratory (and of course if we were using modern-made guns) then it might be OK.

 

[1KPerDay]

I would think that the old timers would have experimented with this but I’ve not seen any in my readings.

That’s why they got to be old timers.

 

[Electrod47]

Post your inquiry on the TheMuzzleLoadingForum.com and you'll get all the info you require.

 

[woodnbow]

Let's not forget that early cartridge guns such as the Colt SAA, the S&W Schofield, and the Trapdoor Springfield, among many others, were originally intended for black powder. Smokeless loads have been developed that are safe for them.

The cartridge controls the variables when using smokeless powder. The problem with using a muzzleloader with smokeless is that the gun itself, in effect, becomes the cartridge. It's much more difficult to control the variables when loading a muzzleloader in the field, than when reloading cartridges on the loading bench. If we could do all our smokeless muzzleloading in a laboratory (and of course if we were using modern-made guns) then it might be OK.

these are made to be used in the field and since there’s no cartridge the accuracy potential is very good indeed.

 

[MEHavey]

If you can take a black powder era 45/70 trapdoor, and reload it safely with smokeless, why can’t you load a similar load in a muzzleloader.

Because if I take the12gr of Unique under a barely "normal" 405gr bullet at a "normal" 45-70 OAL of 2.55" going out at pip-squeak velocity
. . . . . and jam it down on the powder itself (the only real 'Bubba' stopping point) . . . .
I've got a 65,000psi bomb.



*Never* underestimate Bubba.

(I assure you, insurance companies know this full well)

 

[The old gunsmith]

There are way too many variables to make a blanket statement one way or the other. There are SOME muzzleloaders that are likely safe with SOME smokeless loads; but, no manufacturer has done any research on what loads are safe in their product. When your face is 4 inches from the breach, why would you want to go down that path? The potential down sides grossly outweigh any possible gains.

 

[hawg]

It would be nice if all muzzleloader hunting seasons would go to flintlock only with open sights. The whole thing of muzzleloaders for people that don't actually want to shoot muzzleloaders is just weird.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I live in a state where scoped breech loading single shot cartridge rifles with smokeless are legal and in the last two primitive weapons seasons AR 15's with 30 round mags are legal. I would love to see it get back to basics.

 

[Bazoo]

Not me, muzzleloader is just a way to extend my season. I don’t like the extra cleaning. I don’t even own a ML, though I do want a percussion revolver for some reason. Maybe it’ll turn me?

They should allow me to use my cartridge guns from sep to Jan like they allow archery. And limit the number of deer you can take. But here, modern gun is 2 weeks and unlimited does. So there is a mad panic to shoot them and a lot of them. Folks putting out deer corn for a few weeks and shooting them off the feeder. It doesn’t make sense to me. I just want to hunt with my gun of choice and get a reasonable 1-2 deer.

 

[3Crows]

And then came Blackhorn 209.

I got a case of it at Walmart for $15 per can on closeout. Sometimes it still shows up there and at Atwood.

I would as soon get rid of all the boutique seasons and we just have deer season and you can use what you want.

 

[hawg]

Not me, muzzleloader is just a way to extend my season. I don’t like the extra cleaning. I don’t even own a ML, though I do want a percussion revolver for some reason. Maybe it’ll turn me?

They should allow me to use my cartridge guns from sep to Jan like they allow archery. And limit the number of deer you can take. But here, modern gun is 2 weeks and unlimited does. So there is a mad panic to shoot them and a lot of them. Folks putting out deer corn for a few weeks and shooting them off the feeder. It doesn’t make sense to me. I just want to hunt with my gun of choice and get a reasonable 1-2 deer.

Two weeks and unlimited does and you can't get two deer? We're allowed cartridge guns and smokeless powder but I've never taken advantage of it. Half the time during regular gun season I'm using my Hawken. You need to get out during the off season and learn where the deer go, how they get there etc. Hunting isn't just going out in the woods and hoping to spot a deer or luring them in with a feeder. You've got to learn them and that takes work. BTW cleaning a muzzleloader is less work than cleaning smokeless.