Help Me Understand So I Don't Be A Fudd

[BSA1]

Government mandating is a result of stupid people. Where do you get off thinking that the government regulates things just for the hell of it?

Thirty-ought-six

You are making a statement based on lack of your knowledge of the Constitution and why the Founding Fathers formed the three branches of Government.

Our Founding Fathers clearly understood that it is the nature of man when in power to seek as much more power as possible. Obama himself has made this point when he has complained he is not a emperor.

By design the purpose of each of the three branches are to hold the other two in check. Each of the three branches of the Federal Government are constantly attempting to gain more power which is done by taking power away from the other branches. Each branch protects it's power by use of the authority given to it in the U.S. Constitution.

For example only Congress can pass laws yet the President (Executive branch) ignores Congress by use of Executive actions. Congress has the authority and power to override the President’s Executive actions. The fact that they don’t is a failing when one political party controls both Congress and the Presidency.

If the government mandated gun training, he would of been instructed.

Instructed is not the same as learning. If you attended school in the United States you had to take Civics class during which a teacher instructed you about how and why the Federal Government is organized the way it is. Yet your repeated statements show that you have not learned and retained this information.

 

[Spats McGee]

There's at least a metric ton of stuff in this thread to which I'd love to respond. Unfortunately: (1) I don't have the time; and (2) posts have a character limit.

With that said, thirty-ought-six, I'd like to suggest a little reading: Spat's McGee's Federal Constitutional Primer

Sam1911, thank you for what may have to be a new sig line for me:

As someone else has said, a concealed carry license isn't so much like a drivers' license so much as it is a license to walk around with car keys in your pocket all the time.

I suspect (without having taken any sort of poll on this matter) that most of us would agree that firearms training is a Good Thing. This is, after all, a firearms forum. Phrased another way, I think that most of would agree that everyone who owns or handles a firearm should get some firearms training.

Where we seem to differ is in whether such training should be mandatory. The devil is in the details, though. Who gets to decide what will be taught? Who gets to decide how much is enough? Will the training be required to carry? Who decides the carry requirements?

Yes, people do stupid things. I respectfully submit that they do them in spite of laws to the contrary.

 

[Salmoneye]

According to a study released this week by the Violence Policy Center in Washington D.C., Vermont had 78 gun deaths in 2011, compared to 54 fatal car accidents as reported by the Governor's Highway Safety Program.

The actual quote from the VPC PDF:

"Firearm-related fatalities exceeded motor vehicle fatalities in 14 states and the District of Columbia in 2011, the most
recent year for which state-level data is available for both products from the federal Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention. That year, gun deaths (including gun suicide, homicide, and fatal unintentional shootings) outpaced motor
vehicle deaths in Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, District of Columbia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Nevada, Ohio,
Oregon, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington (see table below for additional information)."

And now the facts:

...the number of people who died in car accidents in 2011 was the lowest in 67 years...

...The Health Department data indicated nearly all the gun deaths in Vermont are the result of suicides. In 2011, just four of the 78 gun deaths were homicides. In 2010, two of the 70 gun deaths were homicides....

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...deaths-outpaced-car-accident-deaths/12756651/

 

[MachIVshooter]

^^^^^^^^^

The other thing that the MVA death figuress indicate is how much safer cars are today; despite having several times as many commuter vehcles on the roads in 2015 as we did in 1975, the number of fatalities and severe injuries is not just a smaller percentage of drivers, but actually numerically lower.

Firearm deaths per capita have also been steadily declining, though not to the degree that automobile accident deaths have. Much of that is, of course, attributable to the suicide figures, which generally comprise around half of firearm fatalities in the USA. Those deaths will happen with or without guns, as seen in every other nation.

 

[Red Wind]

And now the facts:

I put that up in post #80. Where have you been, Green Mountain Boy?

 

[jcwit]

I suspect (without having taken any sort of poll on this matter) that most of us would agree that firearms training is a Good Thing. This is, after all, a firearms forum. Phrased another way, I think that most of would agree that everyone who owns or handles a firearm should get some firearms training.

Where we seem to differ is in whether such training should be mandatory. The devil is in the details, though. Who gets to decide what will be taught? Who gets to decide how much is enough? Will the training be required to carry? Who decides the carry requirements?

And therein lays the conundrum.

 

[kwguy]

And therein lays the conundrum.

It's not a conundrum if one accepts that there is no such thing as 'zero defect' in anything, and realizing that individuals are different, learn at different rates, are imperfect, and that the right to exercise our 2A comes with some risk. As responsible individuals, we can mitigate the risk to some extent, but the unknown will always be there. The govt can't fix that, but they can certainly take more freedom from us.

 

[Elkins45]

I'm the guy who started the thread referenced back on the first page of this one. The discussion that took place in it actually realigned my thinking a bit...or to be more precise it demonstrated how firmly "in the box" I had been. Concealed carry in my state comes with a requirement to take a short class and demonstrate the barest of competency with a handgun. Open carry carries no such restrictions. What possible difference happens in the mind and muscle memory of a person when they put a jacket on over their gun to warrant such disparate treatment? Nothing, that's what. It took a couple of really good replies to make that particular light bulb come on.

Freedom is messy, and it seems there is a natural tendency even among those who respect it to distrust how others might use it. We must monitor ourselves to keep from holding others to different standards...and that doesn't just apply to guns.

 

[jcwit]

Boy, did you ever miss it, kwguy. Reread Spats last 2 line paragraph.

There in lays the problem.

Otherwise, believe what you wish.

 

[thirty-ought-six]

Tell ya what, I think a better move for you guys would be China.

Ever seen crash testing of Chinese vehicles compared to American cars? It's a night and day difference.

It's really quite foolish to say "there should be no government mandate".


But of course, if you had it your way and believed in the Laissez-faire system, our cars would be unsafe, useless fluids could be sold as "medicine", pollution would be choking us.

This is a typical day in China:

Wanna know why their air is so crappy? Because they don't have the air quality standards we do.


Sorry, but anyone who thinks "people should just do as they please with the .gov helping", really has no common sense of what it's like in other countries where government regulation is much lower than ours.

 

[kwguy]

Boy, did you ever miss it, kwguy. Reread Spats last 2 line paragraph.

Not too sure what I missed, I agree with those two lines. I'll just use the following quote to say what I was trying to say:

Freedom is messy, and it seems there is a natural tendency even among those who respect it to distrust how others might use it. We must monitor ourselves to keep from holding others to different standards...and that doesn't just apply to guns.

And I didn't realize that China was such a free country compared to the U.S. Maybe we should ask some of their citizens how they deal with private firearm ownership and training?

 

[Spats McGee]

Tell ya what, I think a better move for you guys would be China.

Ever seen crash testing of Chinese vehicles compared to American cars? It's a night and day difference.

It's really quite foolish to say "there should be no government mandate".


But of course, if you had it your way and believed in the Laissez-faire system, our cars would be unsafe, useless fluids could be sold as "medicine", pollution would be choking us. . . . .

Wanna know why their air is so crappy? Because they don't have the air quality standards we do.


Sorry, but anyone who thinks "people should just do as they please with the .gov helping", really has no common sense of what it's like in other countries where government regulation is much lower than ours.

Are you telling us that you think China has a Laissez-faire system of government? Really?

By the way, air quality standards aren't really the topic at hand. Nice red herring, though.

You've gone on and on about "common sense." As I understand your position (admittedly not having read every post you've made in this thread, much less every post of yours here at THR), you support some kind of mandatory training requirement to be allowed to carry (maybe only concealed?) a gun in public.

Based on that theory, I return to a question I posted earlier:

Where we seem to differ is in whether such training should be mandatory. The devil is in the details, though. Who gets to decide what will be taught? Who gets to decide how much is enough? Will the training be required to carry? Who decides the carry requirements?

Who, exactly, would you have decide what constitutes a "common sense" measure? Congress? Popular vote? As to the first, I'm afraid that I don't see any reason why a Congresscritter from some faraway state should have any say in what or when or how I choose to carry a firearm for the defense of myself and my family. As to the second, I've often heard it said that "the problem with common sense is that it isn't."

Besides, one of the interesting quirks about rights is that they're not always subject to a popular vote.

 

[jcwit]

And I didn't realize that China was such a free country compared to the U.S. Maybe we should ask some of their citizens how they deal with private firearm ownership and training?

The point that was being made is the freedom from rules and regulations that manufacturing has their as to safety & health, in other words our OSHA.

You would rather work without these standards?????????????????????

 

[kwguy]

Besides, one of the interesting quirks about rights is that they're not always subject to a popular vote.

Thank goodness!

 

[jcwit]

Would it not be something if the NRA and some conservative members of government could sit down and hash this out and come to a mutual agreement as to what would be acceptable.

Now that I've brought the NRA into this discussion----Here we go?

 

[kwguy]

The point that was being made is the freedom from rules and regulations that manufacturing has their as to safety & health, in other words our OSHA.

You would rather work without these standards?????????????????????

So you want the govt to dictate rules and regulations for us to be able to exercise our 2A right. I'd prefer to leave that up to the individual, and personal responsibility.

 

[kwguy]

While the NRA is a very good source of education and training, guess what, I don't want THEM mandating what is necessary for training either.

 

[morcey2]

Tell ya what, I think a better move for you guys would be China.

Ever seen crash testing of Chinese vehicles compared to American cars? It's a night and day difference.

It's really quite foolish to say "there should be no government mandate".


But of course, if you had it your way and believed in the Laissez-faire system, our cars would be unsafe, useless fluids could be sold as "medicine", pollution would be choking us.

Wanna know why their air is so crappy? Because they don't have the air quality standards we do.


Sorry, but anyone who thinks "people should just do as they please with the .gov helping", really has no common sense of what it's like in other countries where government regulation is much lower than ours.

Did you seriously just imply that Communist China is a Laissez-faire system? The reason that chicom life is so lousy is that _everything_ is regulated and everything is owned by the government. They have no reason to limit pollution. The car maker is the government. The factory belching out smoke is the government. The people aren't the government there. You want a car? They tell you whether you can have one and which one it is.

The point that was being made is the freedom from rules and regulations that manufacturing has their as to safety & health, in other words our OSHA.

You would rather work without these standards?????????????????????

The regulator and the regulatee are the same entity in China. There is no freedom from rules and regulations. There is no freedom to speak of. And if you speak of freedom, you get even less freedom. There, the people are regulated and the government isn't. The government can pollute as much as it wants to. It can operate any mine as unsafely as it wants to. It doesn't care about its subjects. (kinda hard to call the citizens).

In the words of Shakespeare:

It's only Friday and already that boy ain't right.

Matt

 

[NoVA Shooter]

Sorry, but anyone who thinks "people should just do as they please with the .gov helping", really has no common sense of what it's like in other countries where government regulation is much lower than ours.

Please add basic economics and socialism to your list of topics you should really learn about before posting. In China, the government IS the industry and they are not accountable to the same market place forces that we here in the US are. There's no option, ability, or desire for "business" in China to self regulate for the betterment of the people. Real change in this country has come from private industry making business related choices that best serve their companies based on forces in the market place. Cleaner, more efficient processes is good business and when it occurs naturally (through forces in the market vice government mandates), it benefits everyone.

On that note, you do realize that most everything in China is VERY regulated, and you can see what that has meant for its people, right? Still think regulation of private industry and personal rights is a good thing?

 

[jeffmack]

I have not read the whole thread, so if my argument is out of place, I apologize.

I view licensing of firearms the same way I view another right: voting.

Lots of stupid people vote. When stupid people vote, sometimes we get bad leaders, and sometimes as a result people are killed in the cogs of history.

Should citizens study before they vote? Absolutely.
Has it been ruled in court that we do not need tests and licenses to keep people from voting? Yes.

A good citizen studies, but he doesn't try to take rights from others without due process.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Originally Posted by thirty-ought-six View Post
Tell ya what, I think a better move for you guys would be China.

Ever seen crash testing of Chinese vehicles compared to American cars? It's a night and day difference.

It's really quite foolish to say "there should be no government mandate".


But of course, if you had it your way and believed in the Laissez-faire system, our cars would be unsafe, useless fluids could be sold as "medicine", pollution would be choking us.

Wanna know why their air is so crappy? Because they don't have the air quality standards we do.


Sorry, but anyone who thinks "people should just do as they please with the .gov helping", really has no common sense of what it's like in other countries where government regulation is much lower than ours.

Did you seriously just imply that Communist China is a Laissez-faire system? The reason that chicom life is so lousy is that _everything_ is regulated and everything is owned by the government. They have no reason to limit pollution. The car maker is the government. The factory belching out smoke is the government. The people aren't the government there. You want a car? They tell you whether you can have one and which one it is.

Winner!

Now, Mr. ought six, I challenge you to point out just one example of where government intrusion into private industry in the USA has ultimately been more helpful than harmful.

Labor laws and minimum wage? Nope. Those things seemed good prima facie, but ultimately crippled industries and reduced employment opportunities.

EPA? Nope. Once again, the edicts look good on the surface, but wind up hindering advancements. Typical example are the ways they require fuel production to reduce the "pollutant" PPM, whilst ignoring that the "M" part of PPM increases due to lower efficiency.

OSHA? Just like the labor laws, safety becomes a self regulating issue. Employers can't afford to have employees injured and off the job. You'll find that most companies voluntarily go well above and beyond the guidleines.

Healthcare? Do I really even need to put forth examples here?

The list goes on and on. Bottom line is, the minute government gets involved, efficiency and pragmatism are out the window. .Gov is like unions, but worse.

 

[thirty-ought-six]

The Chinese air picture was not trying to illustrate their government, but rather show our own country if the EPA did not exist.

It is a fallacy to believe that "Every man will do good", just take a look at our prison population, which is over 2 million.

We have more prisoners than any country on earth.

So to think "just leave the government out of things and man will do good" is utter BS.

Regulation exists because a small majority of man does not do good.

It's been said that requiring a license to conceal/open carry might do harm, but there is no evidence to say that a program in SCHOOL, would do any harm.


About 45% of households own a gun, having a class about guns might interest students in firearms, who have never been around them before due to their parents not owning one.

 

[thirty-ought-six]

You'll find that most companies voluntarily go well above and beyond the guidelines.

Erm nope, I've held 3 jobs where dangerous safety rules were ignored.

The company I work for just got a $500,000 fine by the FAA for shipping cordless drill batteries via air (ground is the only way they can be shipped).

Two of the batteries were "severely warm to the touch", and if they caught fire, it would of brought the plane down and killed several people, along with ruining hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cargo.

The other place I worked for, a retail store, was SPRAYING PAINT (from a rattle can), around customers and into the HVAC system, it caused many people to leave the store.

Had I not gotten OSHA involved, nothing would of been done.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Erm nope, I've held 3 jobs where dangerous safety rules were ignored.

Why did you stay if it was so dangerous?

The company I work for just got a $500,000 fine by the FAA for shipping cordless drill batteries via air (ground is the only way they can be shipped).

Wrong. Lion batteries cannot be shipped on PASSENGER aircraft, and that's an IATA reg, not FAA.

Two of the batteries were "severely warm to the touch", and if they caught fire, it would of brought the plane down and killed several people, along with ruining hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cargo.

Extremely pessimistic speculation at best. Drill batteries aren't bombs.

The other place I worked for, a retail store, was SPRAYING PAINT (from a rattle can), around customers and into the HVAC system, it causes many people to leave the store.

As I said, these problems resolve themselves. Businesses have plenty of policies in effect that are not government mandated, and these policies are there to ensure that employees and customers keep coming back. Couple of complaints and the observation that paying customers were leaving would cause management to put the kybosh on that. Or the business, having such poor practices, would eventually fail. Once again, self limiting/self-rectifying problem in a free market.

Had I not gotten OSHA involved, nothing would of been done.

Well, thank goodness for you!

 

[thirty-ought-six]

Drill batteries aren't bombs.

You sure about that?

Here is a container ship after a hold of lithium ion batteries exploded.



Funny it says right on the battery "MAY EXPLODE".