Help with 9mm loads and OAL

[lordpaxman]

You're right and I should have more clear on that.

No worries, thanks! I was just trying to read your pressure signs the right way

 

[LiveLife]

when you do your "Work down", you're just looking for loads that function and don't meet a specific PF?

Yes, bullseye match shooters do this to identify lighter yet accurate loads with faster burning powders like Bullseye to W231/HP-38, even replacing recoil spring with lighter rate spring to cycle the slide.

When I do my "work down" with factory recoil spring, I am doing the same but with narrow range of powder charge that will cycle the slide.

One example is 40S&W 180 gr TCFP with W231/HP-38. While Hodgdon published start charge is 4.4 gr, I have worked down to 3.9 gr and cycled the slides of my Glocks and used lighter loads to introduce people to 40S&W from 9mm.

 

[LiveLife]

This! This is very helpful and well laid out. I’m going to have to read over it a few times to get that how to find the most accurate load! A lot of information there!

Glad to help another member. After years of "hunting" to identify most accurate load, I tried to come up with a process/method that was more standardized.

There are many reloading variables that affect accuracy. Identifying the "most" accurate load is often a balancing act of different variables like less gas leakage (from longest working OAL) vs more consistent pressure build (from greater neck tension/shorter OAL). And sometimes another variable overshadows other variables (like bullet diameter) and blurs our findings.

That's why we often suggest to change only one reloading variable at a time. And ultimately, our efforts will show on target as smaller groups.

I will have to see about that OAL once I do my own load testing. I’m actually enjoying playing around with load workouts and bullet lengths. I’m going to start slowly shortening the OAL up while still using the 3.6-4.3gr test range. Going to try 1.135” then 1.130” and finally 1.125”. If all goes well I may get down to 1.100 and 1.08.

That's the joy/fun of reloading, experimenting/customizing our loads until we attain the accuracy and/or particular felt recoil we desire.

And while you experiment with decreasing OAL which increases chamber pressure, also proportionally decrease the powder charge to maintain similar chamber pressures.

"For longer 1.150" OAL, you will need to keep increasing powder charge towards 4.3-4.4 gr to decrease group size.

At 1.130"-1.135", accuracy achieved with around 4.2-4.3 gr.

At shorter 1.080"-1.100", accuracy achieved with around 4.0-4.1 gr."

Enjoy the process and keep us posted.

 

[maddmaxx11]

I have been using the RMR 125 RN with Win231/HP 38. With that bullet I use 1.135 for a COL and 4.1gns of powder work good for me. I have tested to 4.4 with no pressure signs but the recoil and power factor was more than I wanted for a target load. There is another post on here that shows my chronograph data. Search for RMR

 

[TBL65]

Glad to help another member. After years of "hunting" to identify most accurate load, I tried to come up with a process/method that was more standardized.

There are many reloading variables that affect accuracy. Identifying the "most" accurate load is often a balancing act of different variables like less gas leakage (from longest working OAL) vs more consistent pressure build (from greater neck tension/shorter OAL). And sometimes another variable overshadows other variables (like bullet diameter) and blurs our findings.

That's why we often suggest to change only one reloading variable at a time. And ultimately, our efforts will show on target as smaller groups.


That's the joy/fun of reloading, experimenting/customizing our loads until we attain the accuracy and/or particular felt recoil we desire.

And while you experiment with decreasing OAL which increases chamber pressure, also proportionally decrease the powder charge to maintain similar chamber pressures.

"For longer 1.150" OAL, you will need to keep increasing powder charge towards 4.3-4.4 gr to decrease group size.

At 1.130"-1.135", accuracy achieved with around 4.2-4.3 gr.

At shorter 1.080"-1.100", accuracy achieved with around 4.0-4.1 gr."

Enjoy the process and keep us posted.

Very helpful, again much appreciated. I plan to try and keep as detailed of a log as possible with my findings and will definitely keep this updated.

Right now I’ve got some rounds loaded from 3.6-4.3gr at 1.135”, 1.130” and 1.125”. Just waiting for a nice day that I’m not busy to get o the range.

Doesn’t help I’m in the home buying process and expect to close later this month so I’ve been working on sorting and packing up the house. Atleast the boss in charge is going to let e have a spare bedroom as a man cave/reloading room until I can get a small outbuilding built. Which means I’ll be able to move out of the garage!

 

[lordpaxman]

That's the joy/fun of reloading, experimenting/customizing our loads until we attain the accuracy and/or particular felt recoil we desire.

There is a certain amount of joy and fun but there’s some pain as well, especially if things don’t go as expected or you’re comparing notes from last year and realize a load combo behaved differently...
And, appreciate the help as well!

 

[Tilos]

I've posted this method to determine OAL in many other threads and may be applicable here:

OAL
Find a fired case that the bullet just slips into with some resistance.
With the bullet barely into the case push them into the barrel with the shortest throat. You'll feel the bullet hitting the rifling, continue to push until you feel the case hit the chamber shoulder.
Carefully remove the case/bullet assembly, pinch the case/bullet juncture between you thumb/index finger, and measure the OAL with a caliper.
That measurement is the max OAL for that bullet in that barrel.
No research of conflicting data/opinions or interpolation, just a direct measurement.
Do it a couple of times, if you like, to check for consistency.
just the way I do it,

Sorry you're having continuing problems,

 

[TBL65]

I've posted this method to determine OAL in many other threads and may be applicable here:

OAL
Find a fired case that the bullet just slips into with some resistance.
With the bullet barely into the case push them into the barrel with the shortest throat. You'll feel the bullet hitting the rifling, continue to push until you feel the case hit the chamber shoulder.
Carefully remove the case/bullet assembly, pinch the case/bullet juncture between you thumb/index finger, and measure the OAL with a caliper.
That measurement is the max OAL for that bullet in that barrel.
No research of conflicting data/opinions or interpolation, just a direct measurement.
Do it a couple of times, if you like, to check for consistency.
just the way I do it,

Sorry you're having continuing problems,

I will definitely have to try that!

I was able to get out and shoot my loads from 3.6 to 4.3gr at 1.135,1.130 and 1.125”

Not sure if my shooting just sucked that bad today, even though i was using the seat of a chair as a rest at 20ft or if my Glock 19 didn’t like those combinations haha

I’ll post my findings when I can gather my notes and state my next attempts!

 

[kmw1954]

Not sure if my shooting just sucked that bad today, even though i was using the seat of a chair as a rest at 20ft or if my Glock 19 didn’t like those combinations haha !

Honestly, very well could be. I've been there before too. Shot some test that looked good, went back and made more only to find the next trip they opened up. Then the next trip go to just burn up the remaining and they were spot on again.

 

[TBL65]

Honestly, very well could be. I've been there before too. Shot some test that looked good, went back and made more only to find the next trip they opened up. Then the next trip go to just burn up the remaining and they were spot on again.

I loaded up a couple more rounds at different OAL tonight. Gonna try and make it to the range tomorrow. Hoping my shooting isn’t bad again or maybe it’ll just be not liking the lengths I previously loaded.

Here’s a question for everyone. Do yo normallly crimp your 9mm loads? I took some measurements after seating my 124gr RMR FPMW and got a measurement between .376-.379 at the case mouth with no crimp.

I only expand the case just enough to get the base of the bullet started. I’ve noticed on some of my cases that this expand the case as the bullet is seated and you can kinda see a slight buldge from the case mouth being expanded. I’ve been doing a light crimp per my Lee die set up instructions. And notice it hardly changes the measurements and almost seems like the case is rubbing on the die body prior to being inserted into the seating stem portion.

 

[LiveLife]

I’ve noticed on some of my cases that this expand the case as the bullet is seated and you can kinda see a slight bulge

This bulge is normal as it shows sufficient resizing of brass and neck tension after seating the bullet.

But you should see an even bulge around the bullet as if you only see bulge on one side of case neck, it means bullet was seated tilted (See picture below).

Do you normally crimp your 9mm loads? I took some measurements after seating my 124gr RMR FPMW and got a measurement between .376-.379 at the case mouth with no crimp.

I usually just return the flare back flat on the bullet and just a bit more. Since case wall thickness averages .011"+, I usually add .022" to the diameter of bullet I am using. This thread lists measured thickness of case wall of various headstamp brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

So for .355" sized 9mm bullets, I use .377" taper crimp and for .3555"/.356" sized 9mm bullets, I use .378" taper crimp.

Below is RMR 9mm 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" with .378" taper crimp loaded to 1.130" using Lee combo taper crimp/bullet seating die - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unique-or-old-news-sop.848206/#post-11064321

 

[TBL65]

This bulge is normal as it shows sufficient resizing of brass and neck tension after seating the bullet.

But you should see an even bulge around the bullet as if you only see bulge on one side of case neck, it means bullet was seated tilted (See picture below).

I usually just return the flare back flat on the bullet and just a bit more. Since case wall thickness averages .011"+, I usually add .022" to the diameter of bullet I am using. This thread lists measured thickness of case wall of various headstamp brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

So for .355" sized 9mm bullets, I use .377" taper crimp and for .3555"/.356" sized 9mm bullets, I use .378" taper crimp.

Below is RMR 9mm 124 gr FMJ sized .3555" with .378" taper crimp loaded to 1.130" using Lee combo taper crimp/bullet seating die - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unique-or-old-news-sop.848206/#post-11064321

Yup that’s what mine look like, even buldge around the entire case. I’m using Lee does and per the manual it says a crimp could be added while seating if the die was screwed in. Following the manual to a T (due touching shell plate then backing off three full turns? I’m not sure if it adds any crimp or not.

The Lee factory crimp die rubbing the case (usually toward the middle to base) is slightly annoying but doesn’t seem to affect performance or function. The case doesn’t slide in freely either even with the crimp adjusting stem backed all the way out/take off. I assume this is normal?

I’ll take some more measurements in the morning as I haven crimped all my newly loaded rounds yet and I’m already in bed for the night!

 

[lordpaxman]

This bulge is normal as it shows sufficient resizing of brass and neck tension after seating the bullet.

How much is too much? I don’t see the bulge in my 9mm reloads. I’ll agree in your picture you have undersized and therefore the bullet is now expanding the case. I’d expect 0.00001” of setback in your case!! Even with my .357 Bayou’s I don’t see the bulge, although in that case I do need to flare just a skosh more so I don’t shave lead. If you have that bulge with lead bullets isn’t the case then swaging the bullet? My bullets don’t move when I press them in the bench and cycled in the gun leaves about a .001” setback, (across several headstamps), which leads me to believe I have ok neck tension.
I do check them after crimp with a Hondo/schockbottle case gauge just to make sure they’ll chamber.
The only time I get bulged cases is in .45 occasionally. And they get a case gauge as well.

 

[Typetwelve]

I thought some of you might find this interesting. I measured and pulled some Winchester rounds, their STD offerings, some NATO, and some Ranger rounds:



As you can see, with the Ranger rounds, their seating was below the 1.120" mark with 127-124g projectiles. They all did vary a bit, so the OAL numbers I posted are average.

I don't know what kind of powder they're using, but the types used in all of them save the White Box looked identical. The White box powder was notably different looking. I was also surprised at how hard the factory crimp is on their White box rounds, they weren't easy to pull and the projectile was notably dented from the crimp.

 

[LiveLife]

I don’t see the bulge in my 9mm reloads.

With .355" sized bullets, the bulge can be very subtle, especially with thinner case wall brass. If you look at the pictures below, you can barely notice the bulge and for my close up picture above, it took some effort with thicker walled brass and just the right lighting to show the even bulge around the bullet base.

Winchester 115 gr FMJ loaded to 1.130" showing slight even bulge around bullet base

 

[kmw1954]

Here’s a question for everyone. Do yo normallly crimp your 9mm loads? I took some measurements after seating my 124gr RMR FPMW and got a measurement between .376-.379 at the case mouth with no crimp..

Right now I have 2 different 9mm pistols I load for. The first is a Taurus PT92C and is one of my favorite guns and was the first gun I purchased when I decided to get back into shooting. The second gun is my wife's Springfield XD Mod2.

The first time we tried shooting my reloads in the XD we were having chambering problems. So removing the barrel and doing plunk tests I found 2 things, one was the loads were too long. about 0.015" and second was the crimp. I had to turn the crimp down about 1/3 turn to get the rounds to seat fully in this barrel. I guess the Taurus barrel is a bit looser but it is still one of my most accurate guns.

 

[TBL65]

Apologize for. If posting much on my experiences lately. Haven’t had the time to fully conplie my results including pictures. With getting ready to close on our house and packing along with working full time, the free time has been limited in here.

I did load up a few more rounds for group testing. Have two loads that are showing some promise in the accuracy department

 

[TBL65]

Alright so here is an attempt for me to share my results. I’m doing this from my phone as my tablet isn’t working. Hopefully this isn’t too all over the place and I know my methods probably don’t save me any time and take longer than needed but I’m not worried about saving time.

Start by getting once fired brass. Tumble in walnut media for approximately 1-2 hours. Deprimed and resized. I use hornady one shot even with my carbide die to make things a little smoother. Back into the tumbler for about another hour or so. Check brass in Glock 19 chamber. Case mouths are then flared and hand primed.
Components:
Mixed 9mm brass, CCI 500 primers, RMR 124gr TrFP Match winners, W231 powder.

I started with finding my max OAL which was around 1.145”. Then loaded W231 from 3.6gr to 4.3gr notinf function, ejections, relative accuracy and looking for pressure signs. See attached image 1.

From there I loaded up and shot OAL of 1.135, 1.130, and 1.125 using 3.6gr to 4.3gr while noting function and checking for pressure signs and relative accuracy. See attached images 2,3 and 4.

Next trip I tested 3.6gr to 4.0gr using OAL’s of 1.120, 1.115 and 1.110”. Again checking function, ejections, relative accuracy and looking for any pressure signs. See attached images 5,6,and 7.

Once I was determined function, felt recoil, relative accuracy, and kept an eye on pressure signs. I used some of my data/results I decided to check groups/accuracy with 4.0gr using OAL 1.138”, 1.125” and 1.110”. Five round group sizes measured 2.075” (4 best =1.625”) for OAL 1.138”.
2.456” ( 4 best =1.810”) for OAL 1.125” and 3.340” (4 best=1.600”) for 1.110” See attached images 8,9, and 10.

I then tried a couple loads at 3.8gr with a OAL of 1.135 and 1.110” and one at 4.3gr at 1.135”. Also tested some freedom munitions 115gr loads as a test.

In the end I believe I have two good loads to work with.
Final results are as followed:
-freedom reloads 115gr grouped 1.85” as baseline..
-3.8gr OAL of 1.110 grouped 1.35”
-4.3gr OAL of 1.135 grouped 1.44”
See attached images 11,12 and 13

All shots were taken at approximately 21 feet.

Hopefully this turned out alright and wasn’t too hard to follow

 

[LiveLife]

In the end I believe I have two good loads to work with ... freedom reloads 115 gr grouped 1.85” as baseline.

Glock 19 ... 124 gr RMR FP Matchwinner ... W231 ... 3.8 gr OAL of 1.110 grouped 1.35” ... 4.3 gr OAL of 1.135 grouped 1.44”

Nice range report.

Goes to add to the notion that our reloads can be more accurate than factory or "remanufactured" ammo.


Your results are fairly close to my results as well even though we used different barrels (KKM/Tactical Kinetics/Lone Wolf, another reloading/shooting variable).

At 1.130"-1.135", accuracy achieved with around 4.2-4.3 gr.

At shorter 1.080"-1.100", accuracy achieved with around 4.0-4.1 gr.

 

[Walkalong]

RMR 124gr TrFP Match winners,

Great report.

I loaded them to fall between 1.070 & 1.075, somewhat shorter than you tested. Ran well, shot well.

 

[LiveLife]

Now, many members will post that this was "one" range trip sampling and accuracy trend must be repeated on subsequent range trips to confirm/verify true accuracy of your loads.

I always conduct 2-3 repeat range trips with "most accurate" identified loads from load development/powder work up before I deem them truly most accurate.

 

[Walkalong]

Now, many members will post that this was "one" range trip sampling and accuracy trend must be repeated on subsequent range trips to confirm/verify true accuracy of your loads.

Guilty as charged, but a good outing with great results is always a good feeling.

 

[LiveLife]

Since 3.8 gr at 1.100" did well, would you consider trying 3.8 gr at 1.080" on your next range trip?

And would you try all WIN or RP headstamp brass?

Never know, your group size may get smaller.

 

[kmw1954]

Found this a bit confusing but I am sure you know the sequence you used and as long as you can keep track of the procedure then that's all that really matters. It makes sense to you!

My development goes a like this. Chose components to be used. Primers and brass are pretty standardized so it is a matter of bullet or powder or both that are being tested.. Next I have 4 basic powders I use so in most cases I will pick a bullet and powder and start the process. Find the starting max length and compare that to published load data. Start at minimum charge at longest length. Load 5-10 and test fire for function and accuracy. Then if those all work fine I start working up powder charge, I find as you work your way up the groups will tighten up and then start to fall off again. After I do that exorcise I then start to adjust length for accuracy.

I initially start with 5-10 because I test function in 2 guns. After I know they are going to feed, chamber and eject I normally load 50 and then test 25 in each gun. Here I note accuracy, consistency, Felt recoil and over-all impressions. These get entered into my log book.

Again I load for 2 guns and want these loads to work well in both guns. I say this because I know I am trading some accuracy for functionality in both guns. I want to be able to grab a box off the shelf and know it's going to work in either gun.

Anyways, keep going, you are doing very well!

 

[fxvr5]

TBL65, one shot for your initial relative accuracy assessment? Really?