Help with 9mm loads and OAL

[lordpaxman]

In the end I believe I have two good loads to work with.

Thanks for the update. It’s always interesting to see how others approach this. If those are accurate enough for you then are they different enough in other ways like felt recoil to make you choose one over the other? I was shooting an SCSA match and had to break open another box and had some older 145gr 1.155” longer loads I had done and was very surprised at how soft they were compared to my current load. Maybe I’m getting more sensitive in my old age, but the point is keep good notes and you may decide to try ones you’ve deemed good but later in time.

@fxvr5 call it a relative POI vs POA test. What I was looking at was two things: 1) did the 5 shot group track the one shot test? And 2) Most all shots and groups were centered left of the dot. If you’re a right hand shooter this would indicate you pressing the trigger a bit left and not straight back.

I like your targets! Very creative with the blue painter tape!

 

[TBL65]

Thank you everyone for all the encouraging words!

Sorry I haven’t been posting in here much. My reloading has been on the back burner. Been working on moving things into our new place. Finally No more renting! The last of the stuff to be moved and packed is the reloading stuff! And I’m excited to have my own reloading room in a spare bedroom!

Debating if I’m going to build a new bench of use my existing one I built a while back.

Since 3.8 gr at 1.100" did well, would you consider trying 3.8 gr at 1.080" on your next range trip?

And would you try all WIN or RP headstamp brass?

Never know, your group size may get smaller.

I’ll load a few of them up and give it a shot and let you know what happens!
On a side note I’m made at myself I didn’t jump on RMR’s 115/124gr RN seconds deal a few days ago. They were $59. And now they are gone

Debating ordering 5k or Winchester small pistol primers and maybe 4lbs I’d powder. Debating on sticking with W231 or trying something a different powder like ramshot true blue or shilloute. Or an Alliant power. Something that great for 9mm and 40 sw

 

[lordpaxman]

Debating on sticking with W231 or trying something a different powder like ramshot true blue or shilloute. Or an Alliant power.

Don't debate. Give in to the dark side. You NEED another powder, or two. Alliant Sport Pistol is doing well in several calibers for quite a few of us. Good luck and congrats on the new digs. Now you get to see what homeowner really means.

 

[kmw1954]

Debating ordering 5k or Winchester small pistol primers and maybe 4lbs I’d powder. Debating on sticking with W231 or trying something a different powder like ramshot true blue or shilloute. Or an Alliant power. Something that great for 9mm and 40 sw

Winchester does have a 25% mail-in rebate going so now's the time to take advantage.
W231/HP-38 is a great powder. I have mine down to 3 now; AA#2, HP-38 and Silhouette. The HP-38 works very well in my 9mm, not so much in the 380 with a 100gr bullet and for some reason is very flashy in the 45acp for me. The other 2 powders have worked well in all 3 guns.

Best O luck with the move and get tat bench back up!

 

[TBL65]

Don't debate. Give in to the dark side. You NEED another powder, or two. Alliant Sport Pistol is doing well in several calibers for quite a few of us. Good luck and congrats on the new digs. Now you get to see what homeowner really means.

Winchester does have a 25% mail-in rebate going so now's the time to take advantage.
W231/HP-38 is a great powder. I have mine down to 3 now; AA#2, HP-38 and Silhouette. The HP-38 works very well in my 9mm, not so much in the 380 with a 100gr bullet and for some reason is very flashy in the 45acp for me. The other 2 powders have worked well in all 3 guns.

Best O luck with the move and get tat bench back up!

Thanks guys! Feels good to be a home owner again and no longer be renting. I’ll post pictures of my reloading setup when it’s up and running. Unfortunately I have to share it with the dog kennels so it’s not ALL mine it beats the garage!

Definitely been eyeing some BE-86 or ram shot powders. But I’m pretty sure there’s plenty of load data for W231 in 40sw. But 4lbs of Alliant or ramshot is actually cheaper!

Will probably Atleast order the primers in the morning. Figure about $108 after rebate for 5k primers isn’t bad! Comes out to $22/1k and my local shops cheapest primers are cci at $35+tax /1k

 

[Dudedog]

Sport Pistol works well, I am a bit of the odd man out my favorite for 9mm is WSF.
Works well medium to high. Not as much velocity on top as say Silhouette or BE86, but it shoots well for me.

HP38/W231 (my favorite for .45 w/230s) is a good all around powder but in 9mm I have had better accuracy with quite a few others, WSF, Sport Pistol, Silhouette, CFE-P and others.


There an adventure in every jar of new (to you) powder.
Sometimes it works better for you and you wish you would have tried it sooner,
Somtimes it does not work as well as what you were using but hey, you never know until you try.

Testing can be fun, but then so is just shooting for the fun of it and not testing.

 

[TBL65]

Sport Pistol works well, I am a bit of the odd man out my favorite for 9mm is WSF.
Works well medium to high. Not as much velocity on top as say Silhouette or BE86, but it shoots well for me.

HP38/W231 (my favorite for .45 w/230s) is a good all around powder but in 9mm I have had better accuracy with quite a few others, WSF, Sport Pistol, Silhouette, CFE-P and others.


There an adventure in every jar of new (to you) powder.
Sometimes it works better for you and you wish you would have tried it sooner,
Somtimes it does not work as well as what you were using but hey, you never know until you try.

Testing can be fun, but then so is just shooting for the fun of it and not testing.

Will have to look into sport pistol some! With so many good powders our there it’s hard to narrow it down. Especially finding one for two popular calibers like 9mm and 40sw.
Would definitely like to order a 4lb jug of something that’ll work well for both. Looks like it’s research time!

 

[LiveLife]

Another vote for W231/HP-38 or Sport Pistol for 9mm and 40S&W but at lighter "target" velocities.

If you want mid-to-higher velocity/full power loads, I would suggest BE-86 or WSF.

They are all small granule powders capable of less than .1 gr metering variance (Better than most pistol powders) with Sport Pistol holding the best metering powder title with less than .05 gr metering variance for me.

 

[bwalker36]

Hi guys I figured I would post here instead of a new thread since I’m having the same questions. My first mistake was not buying a bullet and powder combo in my lee manual to make it a little easier.

The trouble I’m running into is with my glock. I have unique powder and Berry’s 124gr HHP. I was able to start with the data on alliants website and loaded a test round with 4.8 grains of unique and an CoL of 1.125. Based on what I researched and read in this thread that should be a very safe starting load. I know the bullet is different but from what I read on Berry’s site I should be able to use that data as a starting point especially on the low end.

It plunked perfectly in my 226 but it won’t plunk in my 43x barrel. I created a dummy round to keep manipulating the seat to find my max CoL for the 43x which was 1.11.

From my understanding and research that should still be safe with 4.8 grains since that is a little over 15% from max load with a similar bullet and thus on the light side.

My understanding is it might not eject and on the worst case a squib but that is unlikely with powder in it. Am I approaching this correctly. Clearly I’m new to this.

 

[LiveLife]

The trouble I’m running into is with my glock 43x ... Unique ... Berry’s 124gr HHP ... max CoL for the 43x which was 1.11 ... 4.8 grains since that is a little over 15% from max load with a similar bullet and thus on the light side.

Welcome to THR.

Below is Alliant's current load data for 124 gr Gold Dot HP which is thick plated HP bullet like Berry's thick plated 124 gr HHP bullet- https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...owderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=23

9mm Luger 124 gr Speer GDHP Unique OAL 1.120" Max 5.8 gr (1,180 fps)

10% reduction of 5.8 gr is 5.2 gr to use as start charge.

And if I am using significantly shorter OAL/COL than published (More specifically, bullet seating depth), I will consider reducing start/max charges by .2-.3 gr.

So since you are using a different (but similar HP) bullet of same thick plated type but at slightly shorter 1.110" OAL, I think using 4.8 gr as start charge should be fine.

 

[kmw1954]

My understanding is it might not eject and on the worst case a squib but that is unlikely with powder in it. Am I approaching this correctly. Clearly I’m new to this.

Thing to remember here is that if all things remain the same a shorter length will Increase Pressure same as increasing powder charge would.
I do not use Unique so I am completely unfamiliar with it. So I do not know how that .014" reduction in length is going to effect pressures. You could load a couple to test and compare to the original load in the original gun before testing in the other gun.

I would guess that it would be fine but the shorter length could max out the load level sooner than the max listed.

 

[bwalker36]

Welcome to THR.

Below is Alliant's current load data for 124 gr Gold Dot HP which is thick plated HP bullet like Berry's thick plated 124 gr HHP bullet- https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloa...owderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=23

10% reduction of 5.8 gr is 5.2 gr to use as start charge so you should be fine using 4.8 gr as start charge for your load development.

I emailed Alliant and they made it seem like the Speer gdhp was a vastly different bullet. Are the hybrid hollow points thick plated?

I felt comfortable with the 1.12” rounds and my 226 since a full sized steel frame and I was well under max load. But got a little nervous with the 43x being polymer and only 3.6” barrel.

I will probably load up another 10 rounds at with 4.8gr charge and 1.11 CoL and go tomorrow. It’s a little nerve wracking as I’ve never done this but I did do many hours of research. I will shoot the previously loaded 1.12 only through the 226. Then 5 of the shorter rounds through both guns. If they cycle properly I’ll load a bunch more and test accuracy. I’m really just looking for a light plinking round for now to ease into reloading and experiment.

 

[Dudedog]

Welcome to THR bwalker36,
lots of great people here!

4.8 seems a bit high to start to me unless you are using the same Speer GDHP Alliant used.
I agree the Berry HHP is probably close but some other data would tend to make me want to start lower.
Checking my Lyman Manual
Using Unique
124 JHP @ 1.06 Start 4.0 Max 4.5
A different bullet
125 JHP @1.075 Start 4.5 Max 5.0
With a lead 120gr bullet @ 1.065 (lead bullets tend to require different charges)
Lyman shows start 4.0 Max 5.0
Old Alliant data showing Max charges, reduce 10% to start


For a 125 FMJ @ 1.15 they show 4.9 MAX so -10% would give you about 4.4 for a start charge.
A bit strange they also show data for the lead bullet being higher, usually lead data is lower as lead seals the bore better.
I haven't used any Unique in a while (I prefer powders that meter better) but if it was me I would start around 4.3 or 4.4gr
4.3 gr of Unique should be way more than enough to get the bullet out the barrel and will probably function fine.
(but I don't know your guns so that's a guess, guessing I would think you would probably have good function a low as 4gr)
Unique data varies quite a bit depending on bullet.
Current Alliant data show 5.8gr MAX Unique with a 125 Speer Gold Dot HP @ 1.13 but older data with different bullets shows a lot less.
Lyman data also shows quite a bit less than 5.8.

I wouldn't pull the 4.8 they should be ok to shoot, but I would recommend loading up some a couple steps lower say 4.4 and 4.6 and shoot those first.

Call me chicken but I always like to err on the side of caution.

I would be tempted to go ahead an start your own new thread asking your question that way more people will see it and you will get more answers.
No rules that say you have to have X number of post to start your own thread so go for it!

 

[bwalker36]

Thanks for the welcomes guys and the info so far. My biggest concern of all is my safety. I will probably end up in my own thread.

Am I correct that the worst problem of under charge is a squib? I don’t mind wasting powder to keep my fingers .

 

[LiveLife]

I emailed Alliant and they made it seem like the Speer gdhp was a vastly different bullet. Are the hybrid hollow points thick plated?

Alliant and Speer are part of Vista Outdoor parent company and should be proud of Gold Dot HP bullets. GDHP have been consistent performers of reliable expansion with excellent weight retention (due to bonded/copper plated construction). I happily use Speer Gold Dot factory ammunition for HD/SD applications and have loaded duplicate practice loads with bulk Gold Dot HP bullets.

Yes, Berry's HHP is thick plated and according to Berry's website, they recommend 1050 - 1150 fps (likely for optimal expansion performance) - https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-124gr-hhp

I will probably load up another 10 rounds at with 4.8gr charge and 1.11 CoL and go tomorrow.

If they cycle properly I’ll load a bunch more and test accuracy. I’m really just looking for a light plinking round for now to ease into reloading and experiment.

That's a good plan.

But my experience with Unique is that accuracy is better obtained at higher, near max/max charges. If you are looking for lighter plinking load, I suggest using faster burn rate than W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol powders.

 

[Dudedog]

Yes,
worst issue of an large under charge is the bullet won't exit the barrel, which is not good but not a problem unless you fire another round behind it with the bore obstructed. (that would be a problem)
If you do stick a bullet a little oil down the barrel makes it easier to get out.
I checked my notes from when I was using Unique with MBC lead bullets and my notes say I liked 4.3, but lead data tends to be lower.
I didn't have a chrono at the time so no vels.
If you are throwing charges with a measure as opposed to weighing every one be aware that with some measures you may have a .2 gr + or - swing since Unique does not meter as well as some other powders.
Most likely more like + or - .1 but something to be aware of.

Welcome to the addiction we call reloading
Have fun be safe.

PS: Shooting my first reload was a bit stressful, sort ok well here goes nothing
The next ones are all easy after the first one!

 

[LiveLife]

Good points.

Am I correct that the worst problem of under charge is a squib?

Unlike revolvers which leak gas through cylinder gap and requires certain minimum amount of powder to not stick the bullet in the barrel, semi-auto barrels with enclosed chamber will usually push the bullet out the barrel with any amount of powder charge (I have tested this until bullets were dropping just in front of the barrel ).

So with semi-auto, squib can occur with almost no powder charge or no powder charge as force of primer detonation (not burn like powder/match head but explosion) can push a bullet into the barrel.

So using a start charge of 4.8 gr of Unique, you won't need to worry about a squib round.

Keep in mind though, Unique meters poorly for some members (As Dudedog posted, depending on powder measure/technique used) so I would exercise caution and keep a close eye on powder charge weight consistency.

 

[bwalker36]

I’m going to weigh each charge with a digital franford armory and the one that came with my lee kit. Thanks the help guys. I’m heading out to a wedding now but plan to hit the range tomorrow at some point so I will soon this conversation back up in the near future.

 

[Walkalong]

Am I correct that the worst problem of under charge is a squib?

That is only an issue if you miss it and fire another round with a bullet stuck in the bore. We must keep an eye out for a squib when guessing at the start charge in case we guess wrong on a combo and start too low. When in doubt, just load up a couple of rounds to start.

I keep a small brass rod in my range bag.

You have to get pretty low to stick a 9MM bullet, despite starting pretty low a couple of times I never have myself, although I have stuck some revolver rounds before, much easier to do with the cylinder gap in play.

 

[bwalker36]

It’s funny you say that. I keep rods and every tool I need to disassemble my rifles and pistols in my range bag. Plus a med kit...never know.

 

[LiveLife]

And if the bullet is really stuck and brass/aluminum bore rod is not working, you can always use 1/4" socket extension wrapped with paper towel (to protect the barrel) to tap out the stuck bullet with a 2x4.

 

[TBL65]

And if the bullet is really stuck and brass/aluminum bore rod is not working, you can always use 1/4" socket extension wrapped with paper towel (to protect the barrel) to tap out the stuck bullet with a 2x4.

Bds - it’s been a crazy couple weeks with moving and going on vacation. Finally getting things straightened up and was able to get my reloading stuff unpacked and we up. Although not in the house yet I am still confined to the garage.

Got some 124gr RMR MW loaded with 3.8gr 231 at 1.080” to try per your recommendation.

Also loaded up some at 3.8gr at 1.110” and 4.0gr at 1.110” to confirm accuracy again based on the data from my last range trip. Also this time used all WIN brass!

 

[TBL65]

Updating the thread a little here,

Just finished loading 50 cases of 9mm between W231 and sport pistol.

Finalizing and checking accuracy consistency for W231 loads

And started load workup for sport pistol. Going to try something a little more organized and take bds’s advice on my sport pistol testing.

Starting with the max OAL for my Glock 19 with charges from 3.7-4.0gr. Will shoot these charges to see which groups the best at max OAL, then decrease OAL slightly to hopefully tighten groups up all while looking for pressure signs and function!

I’m liking how sport pistol meters and sits in my powder hopper. I found that W231 sticks to everything, especially the powder hopper. Not having that problem with sport pistol!

 

[Walkalong]

Not having that problem with sport pistol!

It does meter well.

Then when you are done, it pours out easily. I like that in a powder.

 

[TBL65]

Update on my 231 and initial sport pistol testing after my range trip over the weekend.

W231 results at approx 21 feet:
3.8gr at 1.080”
1st group with clean barrel and warm up=1.95”
2nd group = 1.36”
4.0gr at 1.110 = 1.90”
4.0gr at 1.125” = 1.70”

All shot from my diy rest pictured.
Sport pistol results in next post