Help with a Smith and Wesson Model 66-2 issue.

[UncleEd]

Your tightening of the strain screw revealed that your trigger return
spring is too weak. You need a stronger one. I suspect the one you
have has been clipped.

Did the tightening of the screw have any effect on the hammer in SA?

 

[MrBorland]

Did the tightening of the screw have any effect on the hammer in SA?

If you mean the push-off issue, and if the sear engagement angles aren't as crisp as they should be, my bet is that after tightening the strain screw, it would take even less of a nudge to induce the push-off.

If you mean does tightening the strain screw effect the SA pull weight, unless the strain screw was way out, I would doubt it. In SA mode, pulling the trigger just releases the sear without appreciably lifting the hammer to do so. If the hammer doesn't lift, no real additional work is done against the mainspring.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hello, thanks again for all the responses. Since I last posted I have pulled the grip and found that the strain screw was a little loose. I tightened it, two or three turns which only resulted in causing the trigger to fail to return to the forward position on it's own. It now requires a little help. At this point my plan is to see what happens when I try to fire it, hopefully this weekend, and then return it to the store where I bought it so that their gunsmith can take a look at it.

Two or three turns is a lot. Yes, the spring inside the rebound slide has probably been trimmed way too much. That is the spring that returns the trigger forward. In this photo you can see the spring peeking out from inside the rebound slide. It sounds like whoever was messing around with your lockwork simply did not know what he was doing. Bring it to a qualified gunsmith to set everything right.

 

[UncleEd]

Driftwood Johnson, I note a lot of drag marks on the
S&W hammer. I've seen this many times even on the
vaunted Good Old Days of Smiths. Sometimes the
pivot pin is a little off.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood Johnson, I note a lot of drag marks on the
S&W hammer. I've seen this many times even on the
vaunted Good Old Days of Smiths. Sometimes the
pivot pin is a little off.

That is my Model 17-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975. I don't think that is unusual in a revolver that is almost 50 years old and has been shot a lot.

 

[Zelwood]

Your tightening of the strain screw revealed that your trigger return
spring is too weak. You need a stronger one. I suspect the one you
have has been clipped.

Did the tightening of the screw have any effect on the hammer in SA?

Your tightening of the strain screw revealed that your trigger return
spring is too weak. You need a stronger one. I suspect the one you
have has been clipped.

Did the tightening of the screw have any effect on the hammer in SA?

It seems to have decreased the SA pull from an average pull of 8 ounces to closer to 5 ounces. The DA pull remains consistent at around 4-4.5 pounds. However, it is now experiencing occasional binding in DA mode. About every 5 or 6 pulls in DA and the trigger will lock up in mid pull. At this point, it's more than I am willing and probably able to deal with. I do want to try to shoot it just so that I can also find out if it is experiencing light primer strikes. After that, it's going right back to the store so they can have their gunsmith check it out.

 

[MrBorland]

However, it is now experiencing occasional binding in DA mode

I haven't checked in a good while, but I don't know of a source of mainsprings that'll result in a 4-4.5lb DA pull. Generally, to get that low, one would add a gentle bend to the mainspring. Bend it too much, or in the wrong place, though, and the back of the mainspring can hit the frame as the spring bends even more when you cycle the action. You can kind of see how that might happen by looking at the pic posted above by @Driftwood Johnson. It's very possible that's what's going on with yours.

I do want to try to shoot it just so that I can also find out if it is experiencing light primer strikes.

Unless you're handloading and fully seating Federal primers, I would be surprised if it goes bang if the DA pull really is 4-4.5lbs. Even with these gamer handloads, 4-4.5lbs is super light, especially for a stock hammer. Let us know how it goes, though.

 

[GRIZ22]

Hello, thanks again for all the responses. Since I last posted I have pulled the grip and found that the strain screw was a little loose. I tightened it, two or three turns which only resulted in causing the trigger to fail to return to the forward position on it's own. It now requires a little help. At this point my plan is to see what happens when I try to fire it, hopefully this weekend, and then return it to the store where I bought it so that their gunsmith can take a look at it.

Trigger spring has been severely chopped. Get a new one. After that try the push tesr on the hammer. The hammer should not fall no.matter how hard you push on it. I still think the hammer and/or sear has been messed with but you might be lucky.

 

[Waveski]

I would not shoot that gun before taking it back to the shop that sold it to you. That will only muddle the picture. You need to preset it to those people in the very condition in which you purchased it.

You already know that the works are severely compromised. Why complicate the situation? Walk in and be able to say that the revolver is in the exact condition in which it was sold to you.

Furthermore , take it back to that shop only if you have complete confidence in the staff and their gunsmith. A lot of shops farm out smithing these days. If I were you I’d still give serious consideration to Ahlmann’s. Think of it’s having acquired a project. You’re only in for $650 so far. If you send your revolver to Ahlmann’s it will come back to you as an exceptional firearm, with a trigger you can boast about to anyone.

 

[Riomouse911]

Hello, thanks again for all the responses. Since I last posted I have pulled the grip and found that the strain screw was a little loose. I tightened it, two or three turns which only resulted in causing the trigger to fail to return to the forward position on it's own. It now requires a little help. At this point my plan is to see what happens when I try to fire it, hopefully this weekend, and then return it to the store where I bought it so that their gunsmith can take a look at it.

Personally, I would not go back where you bought it. They sold it in an unacceptable condition, so trusting them to diagnose and fix the issue is something I would leave to someone else.

YMMV.

Stay safe.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Big Dog, where did you find the hardchromed action parts? They remain my favorites, though I think Smith may now be flashchroming some of their MIM parts.
The rule has always been to sharpen the sear on the trigger for more breakweight, and dull it to make it lighter. Never, ever (redacted) with the notch on the hammer. A halfway competent pistolsmith should be able to sharpen the sear, and replace the absurdly light springs.
Remember, a really light ignition system not only often misfires, but your trigger finger can outrun the rebound, or the trigger will fail to pop forward.
Moon
ETA-Responding to what Riomouse said, if you take it back to where you got it, make your concerns (especially about safety and pushoff) abundantly clear, and see what they have to say. That is a particularly nice early 66, and I'd try to have it made right. It's a gun worth saving.
M

 

[MrBorland]

If it were me, I wouldn't take it back unless you want to return it for a full refund. Otherwise, you know it needs springs and attention to the SA sear, which would likely require either a replacement hammer or trigger (or both, if the trigger is beyond fixing), so I'd send it to a competent gunsmith. Ahlmann’s seems like a reasonable option. Before they do any work on it, though, I'd have them do an overall inspection - who knows - the barrel may be marred, the throats may be out of spec, etc., etc.

your trigger finger can outrun the rebound

This is, I believe, a common internet revolver myth. Ed McGivern, who still holds the 5-shot speed record, was known to shoot a stock S&W, so even Ed McGivern couldn't outrun the trigger. Even if it were possible, the vast majority of us aren't going to be outrunning the trigger. The reliability issue is a real one, though. Fortunately, a smooth action with a stock weight (or nearly so) is still very shootable.

 

[Jim Watson]

The Conventional Wisdom is that you can outrun the trigger reset IF YOU USE A REDUCED REBOUND SPRING.
Jerry Miculek is said to use a standard rebound spring for that reason.

 

[MrBorland]

Jerry Miculek is said to use a standard rebound spring for that reason.

Right. He claims to run a heavier-than-stock spring for that reason. Yet, JM never beat McGivern's 5-shot record, either. He runs a heavier-than-stock rebound spring likely because he likely rides the trigger on the return. I posted a video where he immediately locks up a stock Python. Riding the trigger on the return (i.e., letting the trigger push your finger forward) is generally a bad habit, but JM's got power a'plenty in his trigger finger to compensate for the heavier return.

As far as outrunning a lighter return, the return and the mainspring should be balanced. If the return is too weak for the mainspring, you can get into reset issues, but it's not clear that it's because one actually outruns it, or the return just doesn't have enough oompf to fully reset. I've seen revolvers with light and imbalanced return springs, where you could slowly let your finger completely off the trigger and it wouldn't fully return.

At any rate, whether one can outrun a light return is academic - a return spring that's too light for the mainspring can lead to "no return" reliability issue. A main and return spring that're too light, even if balanced, can lead to "no bang" reliability issues.

 

[Jim Watson]

There used to be a gunzine ad for Tyler T grips featuring a deputy they said had equalled or beaten McGivern with a Python.

 

[Zelwood]

Just a follow up. I did take the gun to the range and it had no issues with any type of failures to fire. I did return it to the store where I purchased it for the other issues and they have agreed to repair it at no cost to me. At this point, their gunsmith has it and I'm just waiting to get it back.

 

[MrBorland]

It seems to have decreased the SA pull from an average pull of 8 ounces to closer to 5 ounces. The DA pull remains consistent at around 4-4.5 pounds

I did take the gun to the range and it had no issues with any type of failures to fire.

 

[halfmoonclip]

This is, I believe, a common internet revolver myth. Ed McGivern, who still holds the 5-shot speed record, was known to shoot a stock S&W, so even Ed McGivern couldn't outrun the trigger. Even if it were possible, the vast majority of us aren't going to be outrunning the trigger. The reliability issue is a real one, though. Fortunately, a smooth action with a stock weight (or nearly so) is still very shootable.

Mr. Borland, you took my remark out of context; I was speaking of a really light double action trigger. If you go down to a 11 or 12# rebound slide spring, sometimes your finger can indeed outrun the trigger return.
Moon
ETA- yeah, I'm a little skeptical of a 5oz trigger...
M

 

[MrBorland]

I was speaking of a really light double action trigger. If you go down to a 11 or 12# rebound slide spring, sometimes your finger can indeed outrun the trigger return.

I know, and I kinda sorta acknowledge in my earlier post that one might be able to outrun an uber lite rebound spring, but that it's also tough to be definitive about it given that it's unclear whether the springs (plural) were swapped appropriately.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I know, and I kinda sorta acknowledge in my earlier post that one might be able to outrun an uber lite rebound spring, but that it's also tough to be definitive about it given that it's unclear whether the springs (plural) were swapped appropriately.

My own measure, after tinkering with a Smith, is to dry fire it as fast as I can. If I can beat the trigger, time to go back in with a heavier rebound spring. It depends on lots of things, including the slickness of the inner works. ( I swear it even depends on the moon phase, or the infield fly rule...)
Smith likes to use stout enough springs that the revo will work out the door, so there is always room for improvement.
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

I'm betting just the trigger return spring needs to be replaced
and the hammer spring strain screw tightened or a new screw
that is longer is needed.

If the hammer/trigger were messed with, I doubt S&W has the
parts any more to fix it.

Bur all good advice has been given.

Reread this thread, and Uncle Ed has it figured out. The springs are relatively cheap, a tool is handy to insert/remove the the rebound slide spring. As long as the previous tinkerer didn't take anything off the sear engagement surfaces, some new springs may solve the problem.
Numrich may have old style parts; modern MIM parts may also be backwards compatible.
Moon

 

[Riomouse911]

Reread this thread, and Uncle Ed has it figured out. The springs are relatively cheap, a tool is handy to insert/remove the the rebound slide spring. As long as the previous tinkerer didn't take anything off the sear engagement surfaces, some new springs may solve the problem.
Numrich may have old style parts; modern MIM parts may also be backwards compatible.
Moon

If you do choose to redoing the revolver yourself, which really is a fairly simple operation with good You Tube guides like the Brownells or other reputable source, I suggest you make the following rebound slide tool. This is after buying the proper screwdrivers to pull the side plate and the springs from Wolff or other reputable maker:

The Brownells tool is ok, but it is about $18.00 shipped and can be a royal pain to use.


Using a $1.00 bargain bin screwdriver and a bench grinder, this shape is much easier to use and much less likely to bend the pin the rebound spring rests against or launch springs across the room.



This was given to me by the head gunsmithing instructor at Lassen Community College, Bob Chavez, when I took his S&W revolver armorers course. It works to easily remove/install rebound springs on any DA S&W revolver with a swing out cylinder and rebound slide.

Just a suggestion, YMMV.

Stay safe..

 

[halfmoonclip]

If you do choose to redoing the revolver yourself, which really is a fairly simple operation with good You Tube guides like the Brownells or other reputable source, I suggest you make the following rebound slide tool. This is after buying the proper screwdrivers to pull the side plate and the springs from Wolff or other reputable maker:

The Brownells tool is ok, but it is about $18.00 shipped and can be a royal pain to use.
View attachment 1166907View attachment 1166906

Using a $1.00 bargain bin screwdriver and a bench grinder, this shape is much easier to use and much less likely to bend the pin the rebound spring rests against or launch springs across the room.

View attachment 1166903View attachment 1166904View attachment 1166905

This was given to me by the head gunsmithing instructor at Lassen Community College, Bob Chavez, when I took his S&W revolver armorers course. It works to easily remove/install rebound springs on any DA S&W revolver with a swing out cylinder and rebound slide.

Just a suggestion, YMMV.

Stay safe..

Riomouse911, great minds in like channels, LOL. I made a thing much like your homemade tool; mine has a second, shorter nub that goes in the middle of the rebound slide spring for reinsertion. The flat spot on the back of the tool looks useful, may have to grind that on mine. The first gizmo is worth having, especially if you grind it a little smaller, but the homemade one is the deal. I like a round babbit to 'twang' the frame, and make the sideplate pop off, but a Lyman brass hammer will work as well.
Moon

 

[TransAmConvert]

Here's a thought. These "gunbusters" auctions come up frequently on gb. They cut up the frames and sell everything else. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1003399520

Couldn't you grab a set of parts and swap them all over? The internals should be fit together provided nobody screwed up the donor which is no guarantee but it's cheap enough it might be worth a try.

 

[Zelwood]

Here's a thought. These "gunbusters" auctions come up frequently on gb. They cut up the frames and sell everything else. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1003399520

Couldn't you grab a set of parts and swap them all over? The internals should be fit together provided nobody screwed up the donor which is no guarantee but it's cheap enough it might be worth a try.

Thanks, the thought of doing something like that has crossed my mind. My issue is this, while I believe that I am capable of following along with a video and replacing whatever parts need replacing, I am not as confident in my ability to correctly diagnose which parts need replacing. As it stands now, the gun has been returned to the store where I purchased it and they are supposed to repair it, free of charge. I expect one of two things is going to happen. Either they will repair it and all is well or they will say that they can't repair it due to being unable to obtain the parts (read that as they don't want to spend the time hunting down used parts) and will offer to refund my money. If that happens, I have to decide if I want my $650 back or I want to keep the gun and repair it myself. Assuming that they tell me exactly what parts need to be replaced and I could pick up one of those parts guns at a reasonable price, I might keep it and attempt the repair or just provide them with the parts and have them do it. I have seen similar model 66 revolvers from that time period go for over $1000 so it would still be worth it to me to keep it. At this point, I'm still waiting to see what the gunsmith says and hoping all I have to do is pick it up.