Hi All - New 1858 Owner Questions

[BCRider]

Chambers vary of course but one reason I settled on 30 gns for my cowboy shooting is that it's a load which lets me seat the ball onto the charge before I run out of ram travel when using the ram on the gun.

With a lighter charge I'd have to add filler. And when I'm shooting in cowboy matches there's some pressure and expectation to get back to the group to help with setting and spotting. So I go with the minimum I can do easily and still load and shoot safely.

Having said this none of my .44's show signs of leading with 30gn charges. And as mentioned above instead of the slow to apply grease on the ends of the cavities I use a drop of Canola cooking oil. It's MUCH faster and a LOT neater. And it seems to leave the fouling soft and rather gooey. Plus with the deeply set balls that come from using this fairly minimal charge as far as the rammer is concerned I'd have to bring along a good size tub of grease style lube instead of a little squeeze bottle of oil.

And apparently it's a pretty good lubricant. Back in WWII one of the original uses for rape seed oil, known now as Canola, was for lubricating the valve works on the steam engines of freighters and some warships. It injected well and tended to stay with the metal instead of washing away in the steam like petroleum oils tended to do.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

I've just been trying to file down the capper, and get used to using it. However, I've just ended up scratching the sides of the cylinder near the nipple. Decided to just use a pair of large tweezers I have and can use that to cap and push down the nipple pretty easily. Obviously not handy in the field, but this is home/range use anyway. At least if one cap does go off, it shouldn't be directly toward my thumb although I suppose it could track along the tweezers.

 

[BCRider]

As I might have mentioned I use a wood push stick. I'd be a trifle hesitant to use a metal object like tweezers because the metal has no give to it where the wood has some give so any point pressure is spread out more than if the cap is firmly seated with a metal tool.

At any rate when capping or seating the caps with any sort of push stick just be careful to keep your hands and fingers away from the front of the cylinder. If a cap goes off you'll get a bit of a burn if something is too close. But at the same time it's highly likely that it'll set off the charge in the chamber. And if any fingers are out there we'll likely have to change your nickname to "Stubby".

This clearly applies to any time one is capping with cappers, by hand or with any other tool to manipulate the caps.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Thanks for the Canola oil tip - I've heard it's good for keeping the parts oiled as well. Fair point on the capper and using a wooden dowl - although been reading up and maybe a pencil with an eraser end might be a better choice. Very little pressure is used to put these No10 caps on, and I don't think they're loose so perhaps it's not an issue. I'd like to test to see exactly what it takes to set the caps off "accidentally".

Definitely doing my best to keep my hand/fingers away from the end of the cylinder at any time once the black powder and ball are seated. Although curious as to what will happen if one goes off with the chamber obstructed by the gun.

 

[EljaySL]

I've always capped with my fingers - GENTLY - if I had nipples where I had to use any force to get them down all the way I'd use a wooden dowel. It does take quite a bit of force to set them off. I had a 1851 with a weak mainspring that would set off some brands of caps but not others, long story, anyway they could be visibly smooshed and not go off.

re: capping outside of the gun... So you can imagine if you dropped it, it would probably land right on a cap and go off, and of course it would be pointed right at you at the time, right? If you're comfortable with that, by all means, go for it.

Personally I think that's maybe not the best idea ever.

That being said I do it on my Paterson because that's the only way to load it. But obviously I'm as careful as possible, and I don't shoot it all that often. Fingers crossed.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

I've always capped with my fingers - GENTLY - if I had nipples where I had to use any force to get them down all the way I'd use a wooden dowel. It does take quite a bit of force to set them off. I had a 1851 with a weak mainspring that would set off some brands of caps but not others, long story, anyway they could be visibly smooshed and not go off.

re: capping outside of the gun... So you can imagine if you dropped it, it would probably land right on a cap and go off, and of course it would be pointed right at you at the time, right? If you're comfortable with that, by all means, go for it.

Personally I think that's maybe not the best idea ever.

That being said I do it on my Paterson because that's the only way to load it. But obviously I'm as careful as possible, and I don't shoot it all that often. Fingers crossed.

Yeah, fair point there. I'll likely take it off to put the black powder and lubed wads in, and then put it back on/in the 1858 to load the balls and seat the caps. I've been practicing a lot with it to make sure I get used to all the features of the gun, and don't have my hands in a stupid position when loading and handling. I'll buy a pencil with a rubber on the other end to seat the cap - and either use tweezers, or like you, gently put them on the nipples with my fingers - no more pressure than picking them up and putting them in a capper anyway really.

 

[Crawdad1]

Personally I think that's maybe not the best idea ever.

I agree there. I also put them on using my fingers and, if needed, a wooden stick, nothing fancy just a sliver of wood or if I'm out hunting I pick up a stick and use that, to seat them.

Springbok, what are you going to do with this revolver? blast away at beer cans, target, compete or hunting?

 

[Springbok_Rider]

I'm living on a rural property in France so will just be using it to shoot at targets and cans etc. They have a fair few snakes around here so may be interested in figuring out a snake shot load for pest control - although most aren't poisonous so probably not and besides, that's the cat's job. Recon you need a license for hunting deer here, and then I may as well get a modern rifle. Always wanted a Winchester lever action.

 

[EljaySL]

You can also get off-the-gun loaders to seat the balls.

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=1302742a-9e12-41e5-881f-f99340c6d9e6

So basically you put the cylinder on the post, add powder to everything, squish in the wads, squish in the balls, and then at your convenience reinsert the cylinder in the gun and add the caps and fire. Some of these cap and ball revolvers either don't have loading levers at all or have very weak ones (some of the pocket models particularly).

Definitely not needed for a 1858 but something to be aware of.

With a 1858 I use a little wooden stand that holds the gun in place. Makes everything much easier - like you have a third hand. You can make one or buy one - here's the kind of thing http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7768

 

[72coupe]

For snakes load 10 grains of powder a card wad then fill the chamber with Number 9 shot and top with a gas check placed on the shot upside down.

I have never tried this with a 36 but it works great with a 44.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Thanks for those suggestions. I've seen the hand presses as well as the loading benches. Trying to keep things down to what is a necessity, but if I start to enjoying this a bit and end up getting more black powder pistols, so will the accessories add up for convenience!

As for the snake load, what do you mean put a gas on top?

 

[goon]

A gas check is a small copper disc that's slightly cupped on the edges. It's meant to be used on the base of a cast bullet when driving it at high velocities to reduce distortion to the bullet and excessive leading, but they can also be used to "cap" off a chamber or cartridge if loaded with a charge of shot.

The wooden dowel used to seat caps is a good idea. In the unlikely even that one does go off while seating it - unlikely - do you want your finger there or a replaceable wooden dowel?

Nice revolver BTW. It's always good to hear about shooting culture in other countries. I'm glad France still has a bit of it (my heritage is French, but we've long been Americanized). Are conversion cylinders for these revolvers legal in France?

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Hi,

Thanks for explaining that. I'm originally from South Africa and learnt to shoot when I was 7. However, moved to the UK where it's hopeless most of the time. Moved about, and in France it seems they are a little more relaxed about shooting. However, you don't need a gun license to order a black powder weapon (just show ID) which is why I have gone that route.

However, I can join a gun club (or go do a walk around in a high viz jacket shooting at birds which seems to be the norm here) and should then be able to convert the 1858 to catridge if I wanted.

Still waiting on accessories to shoot it. I did order a flask and lubed wads from Midway France. However, it's been 2 weeks now and they say it'll take a week more before I receive my order - disgusting service to say the least.

I am waiting on some regular wads and a powder measure to arrive today or tomorrow. So have been looking at how to make lube for the wads, or failing that just use lithium grease or something on top of the balls while I wait for the lubed wads.

Just reading around trying to find a simple recipe. The shops are limited where we are at, so trying to figure out what lard and beeswax is in French!

 

[rodwha]

A very old formula for lube that goes back to the early 1900's and used as an outside bullet lube is (by weight):

1 part mutton tallow
1 part paraffin wax
1/2 part beeswax

This is melted in a double boiler, which is something like a jar with those contents inside sitting in a pot of water that's heated. Mix well and soak the wads in it.

I made so much that I poured the excess into a soap mold and made a block of it. Then I cut that into 6 chunks and have used these chunks to lubricate my bullets by hand. I'm tired of doing it this way though as it's tedious and after it warms up between your fingers, becomes tacky.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Went to town today to try and get what I could. Purchased some lithium grease to use in the meantime which might help some. As for the wad lube, I've managed to get a hold of some 80% animal lard (not sure what type), and some furniture polish liquid beeswax. The latter is hopeless as I looked everywhere - not sure if I can use it as a hardener or not? Can obviously order it but trying to do what I can while my brother is visiting and we can shoot the revolver.

Could just use the lard by itself? Or should I just put grease on the cylinder ends and use dry wads in the meantime? Lubed wads should be coming in a week or so.

 

[rodwha]

I've read of people using Crisco (cooking grease) on wads. It certainly doesn't hurt to try it.

 

[grter]

I stuff 30 to 38 grains of pyrodex (what can I say I can't get real black powder easily but pyrodex is close enough) into that thing like it was meant to be and do not have any problems with accuracy or lead fowling.

In fact I find I can ram .457 balls in the cylinder when I use a powder incorporated loading press and I think they work even better than .454. Forget about .451 they are kind of too easy to ram and do not seem to be as good as .454 or .457 this may depend on the gun.

Steel frame of course if you have brass then maybe it would be better to stick to those weak loads that a remington with it's solid backstrap was never meant for unless it's a brass fantasy Remington.

 

[goon]

Springbok_Rider -

I've used Crisco, but it's a little too soft on its own. On a warm day it will turn into liquid. You could probably mix it half and half with something else that has a higher melting temp and get it to work.

But if you use something like Crisco (shortening) make sure there is no salt in it.

I'd imagine that the lard or a lard/beeswax mix could be made to work. One thing about BP - you really can kind of just use what you have within reason.

I've mixed different components for BP lubes in a microwave safe container. Just nuke it for 20 seconds or so at a time and keep at it until you have everything liquid enough to mix, mix it up, and let it harden. If it ends up being too runny, you can always add something else to harden it.

On lubing, if you don't have wads, you can just seal the chambers off with grease or lube. The main concern there is to help prevent chainfires by sealing off the chambers so that a spark can't enter a chamber from the front and set off a chamber that's not lined up with the bore. If you don't have wads, you can just charge with powder, ram a ball in, and smear some lube over the end of each chamber. It's a little messy, but it works.

I'd also use .454 balls. You want balls that are tight enough that they definitely deform when you ram them in so they'll fit tight enough in the chambers to stay put during recoil. Getting air space between the ball and the powder charge in a BP gun can be bad news.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Thanks. I guess I'll try use the lard on the wads. Have also tested a bit of paper towel with the beeswax furniture polish to see if it is hard by tomorrow or if it stays a liquid. As you say, guess the lard is better than nothing. Just wonder if it will foul the black powder if it's not hard enough.

Edit: Just saw your last post now. Yeah, fair point. I did buy the no salt kind so it was less damaging to the steel. Will see what the furniture polish does - will make a plan anyway. Was wondering whether to just use candle wax in the mix.

 

[goon]

A lot of candle wax is made with paraffin, which is petroleum based. It might burn and cause a little more soot or dirt, but a little mixed in if you need it shouldn't hurt anything.

Honestly, if you have a beeswax candle and think that might help, melt it in and try it.
If you have regular candle and that's all you got...
If you have a handful of crayons and you need to thicken the lube up a little...
I've also used mink oil in homemade BP lube. I had some left over from waterproofing a pair of boots. Hunting season was coming and my dad and brother both needed to lube some rifle patches, but there wasn't much to go around. So I melted mink oil half and half with the T/C bore butter we already had. Worked fine.

As for fouling, a dozen shots is going to give you plenty of that no matter what you use.

Another thing to know is that the Remington design, while strong and reliable, is a little more affected by fouling than a Colt design. The cylinder pin (arbor) is smaller and has no lube grooves to help divert fouling, so the Remington design often needs a little more TLC to keep it running. Until you know how your specific gun is going to act, you might want to pull the cylinder and just give the pin and cylinder face a quick once-over every six to twelve shots or so.

Otherwise, I'd be very surprised if your gun doesn't work properly. If it's clean, good caps, dry powder charge... it's going to fire.

Have fun!

 

[Springbok_Rider]

I've just melted the lard along with a couple of small candles and a bit of the beeswax polish. Will see what the consistency is like tomorrow but will get it close enough and use it in the meantime. Thanks for the help and the tips. Looking forward to firing it properly!

 

[rodwha]

I was told no stick cooking spray on the cylinder pin will keep it running. I tried it and it didn't work. Then I read that Ballistol works wonders. Had some so I tried it, and sure enough it runs and runs and runs! Beforehand it would bind up on the third cylinder.

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Good call on the Ballistol. Did a lot of research seeing as I don't want to blow myself up, and many people recommend it for cleaning and rust prevention. Have already used it on the cylinder pin.

 

[rodwha]

That stuff is awesome!

However it's not a good long term rust preventive. If you use it as such you'll need to check it every few months or so. I'm in a humid climate and I sometimes find little bits of surface rust after maybe 3-5 months.

Something else I've read on the 'net is that if you won't have time to clean it when you get home you can spray it down with Ballistol which will keep it until you can. I tested it by doing so using a very liberal amount in the bore and chambers and with a good wipe down with an oily rag. I then left it in my garage and checked it. Worked!

 

[Springbok_Rider]

Fair point with the ballistol, but good to know it does work as advertised.

The mixture I made was a little messy with the wads today while putting them in the cylinders, but it seemed to do the job. No chain fires and the gun wasn't a mess afterward.

It's good fun to shoot, but definitely puts the lead about 6 inches to the left. From the different loads I put in, oddly 40 grains seemed to be the most accurate and consistent.

Guess I'll continue along the same path and see if I can figure it out. Seems like at some point I will need to adjust the sights though.