Hip/Pelvic area hits = "stopping" power?

[mjrodney]

I'd be curious to know if there is any actual LEO history of hits to the pelvic area with a handgun and how effective they were in "stopping" an advancing BG.

My thought is, even if you missed the hip joint, it has to feel like someone kicked you with steel toe boots on.

In my youth, I was the receipient of a well delivered steel toe boot, and I dropped like the proverbial stone.

If this were to be effective, it may add effectiveness even to mouse guns, and give those wearing the white hat a few seconds to seek cover or safety.

Comments? Thoughts?

 

[Aka Zero]

Far more effective than an limb shot.

 

[CWL]

This has already been pretty-much debunked and I don't know many 'famous' trainers or schools that still advocate this technique.

The center of a torso (COM) is a larger target than the hip socket-ring and still debilitating even if missed by a few inches. Torsos also remain pretty-much the same sized target during movement and from different angles and heights: hip-sockets are not. Looking at the hips also takes your eyes off-of the BGs, face, eyes and hands.

There is a former LEO member of THR who was on the receiving-end of a hipjoint shot. Fortunately it did not stop his ability to give the BG a permanent dirtnap. Perhaps he will post here and deter you from thinking this as a viable SD tactic.

 

[HM2PAC]

Pelvic injuries and hip joint injuries, though devastating, should not be relied on to stop a BG.

I am a surgical PA. I work in orthopedics and trauma. Pelvic injuries are horrific and can be lethal if not effectively treated in a timely manner. Any injury that disrupts the pelvis and its blood supply can exsanguinate a person in a matter of minutes.

COM shots and CNS shots (Central Nervous System) have the ability to stop the person in seconds if not instantly. They may not always stop the threat immediately, but they are your best bet.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

See Soybomb's post #33 here...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385357&highlight=fackler+pelvis&page=2

I'd be curious to know if there is any actual LEO history of hits to the pelvic area with a handgun and how effective they were in "stopping" an advancing BG.

My thought is, even if you missed the hip joint, it has to feel like someone kicked you with steel toe boots on.

In my youth, I was the receipient of a well delivered steel toe boot, and I dropped like the proverbial stone.

If this were to be effective, it may add effectiveness even to mouse guns, and give those wearing the white hat a few seconds to seek cover or safety.

Comments? Thoughts?

Now let me ask you this. What does it mean to hit the "pelvic area?" You mean like gut shots? Okay, sure they hurt. So do shots anywhere else. Big deal

When you talk about hitting the hip joint (which is really the spot you need to hit in order to have assurance of locomotor failure), just where are you going to aim? What are the landmarks you look for on a clothed person that is going to allow you to hit a volume that is maybe 6-8 cubic inches (acetabulum, femoral head, femoral neck)?

A lot of folks speak of 'breaking the pelvis' and that just doesn't seem to happen with pistols, at least not very often. Plus, the largest bone of the pelvic girdle is the ilium and you can punch holes right through it without causing locomotor failure.

Far more effective than an limb shot

Have any documentation?

 

[spwenger]

I'm a Bit Short on Time This Morning...

...as it's my turn to work the weekend shifts. I already have some discussion of these concepts under Aiming Points and Pelvis Shots - A Second Look on my own website.

I believe that most of us who advocate targeting the pelvis trace the advice back to the late Jim Cirillo, who once told me that every felon shot in the pelvis by the NYPD Stakeout Unit fell to the ground.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

from spwenger's links...

Dr. Williams specifies that it is the lateral pelvis that should be targeted, particularly with a handgun. The lateral pelvis is the area between the edge of the sacrum (the set of fused spinal vertebrae that form the central, rear portion of the pelvic frame) and the hip joint. This area can be envisioned as a triangle which encloses the bone structure that is most vulnerable to damage from a handgun bullet, compromising the assailant's ability to remain standing or mobile.

The "lateral pelvis?" He is describing the ilium. It is the area most vulnerable to damage because it is the largest bone of the pelvic girdle. It is also the bone that can take the most damage without failing. It is so large because it is the major point of attachment for the abdominal connective tissues and forms a partial protective basin around the lower organs.

Relatively speaking, you would do a lot more damage with a single shot to the pubic bones, only most people would be clueless as to where to shoot and both are very small compared to the ilium. The same would hold for the ishium, larger than the pubis, but much smaller than the ilium.

I have yet to find any data to suggest that a shot in the pelvic area with a handgun is any more or any less effective than the 'belly button' shots described on your page (ala Farnam). The belly button aim point gives you a lot more room for error while still hitting your target.

As best as I can tell, there is no study on pelvic shots that compares and contrasts gunshot damage to pelvises, especially not any handgun data. Yes, Ayoob cites a real case where a person was shot, hit in the pelvis, went down. Given a bit of time, I can find the articles on appendicular soft tissue (non-bone involvement) gunshot wounds where people went down.

Fackler specifically refers to the pelvic shot concept as a fallacy, and it may be in terms of the perceived results people expect, just like the head shots you mention on your web site that don't do a lot of good because they miss the CNS.

However, if you have some data you are holding back that will show information to the contrary, I would like to read all of it.

 

[RJW]

pelvis shot

A stategic shot to the pelvis will take a person off their feet immediately and to the ground. It however will not shut off the engine. Center of mass shots or head shot will do that. Because of the concern of body armour more instructors teach the pelvis shot and of course two shots to center of mass and one to the eye area of the head, to take out the primary motor cortex area of the brain. All engines stop at that point.

 

[brickeyee]

A stategic shot to the pelvis will take a person off their feet immediately and to the ground.

ONLY if you manage to hit and damage the hip joint.

you may as well go for the abdomen and hope top get enough penetration to hit the abdominal aorta.

Shoot for COM unless HITS have not been effective at ending the threat.
At that point move to the head.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The pelvic point-of-aim...

is not as good as C.O.M., but can come in handy:

1) Attacker with body armor: the pelvis is larger and less mobile that the head.

2) Attacker with contact weapon advancing: you put a hole in his heart, he may stop now, he may stop later. You break his pelvis or femur and I guarantee you: gravity's gonna take care of the rest.

3) Holding an attacker at gun-point: lower point of aim lets you see his hands; if the hands start to move to a weapon, fire and let the recoil walk you up to C.O.M.

4) Holding an attacker at gun-point: I don't care how tough, stupid, or drunk a male attacker is: you point the gun THERE, he's gonna think twice.

Disadvantage: if you have to shoot, be prepared for the argument that this was an intentional mutilating/punishing shot to "teach him a lesson," not to defend yourself.

(Learned at the knee of Massad Ayoob).

 

[NonConformist]

Quite a few of my instructors over the years have advocated this as a result of body armor etc;

 

[Rokyudai]

Massad Ayoob- "The Ayoob Files:The Book", has at least a couple of true LEO stories where this occurs : What first came to mind is the true story entitled, "The Terminator". Page 54, it is the shot to the pelvis that puts him down....and he had been shot 10 times total...with several different caliber/gauge.

Shot placement people.

 

[usp9]

ONLY if you manage to hit and damage the hip joint.

No. The overall determining factor is whether the bullet is powerful enough to break the hip bone. A broken hip, socket or not, will disable a human. It is a risky shot with many pistols, a much more sure shot with a rifle.

If your goal is to stop a person from advancing, the hip shot is effective, though not immediatley deadly. It is one shot not effected nearly as much by body bulk either. Big, small, tall or short, thin or fat...a broken hip puts you on the ground.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Page 54, it is the shot to the pelvis that puts him down....and he had been shot 10 times total...with several different caliber/gauge.

Was it that last shot that put the perp down, or was it the cumulative effect of the preceeding 9 shots?

I would suggest that a man shot in the torso 10 times would eventually go down, whether or not the pelvis was hit.

 

[brickeyee]

"No. The overall determining factor is whether the bullet is powerful enough to break the hip bone. A broken hip, socket or not, will disable a human. It is a risky shot with many pistols, a much more sure shot with a rifle."


The "hip bone" is the proximal end of the femur and the pelvic structures that support it.

Handguns are NOT rifles, and very few have enough power to break some of the strongest and largest bones in the body.

If you simply strike the pelvis you may do nothing more than punch a hole in the pelvic girdle that will NOT immediately incapacitate the person.

 

[Defensory]

I agree completely with those posters who say that pelvic/hip shots should NOT be depended on to stop a determined aggressor.

A headshot is ideal, since a bullet to the brain has been proven to be the fastest and most reliable man-stopper.

Most LEO and civilian handgun instructors teach center-of-mass (COM) shots to the chest area, because headshots are noticeably more difficult to make under the high-stress conditions of being attacked. The overwhelming majority of both LEOs and civilians don't/won't practice enough to become proficient at headshots, thus COM shots are the teaching standard.

If you're facing a single attacker, a quick COM double tap is your best bet, and be prepared to instantly deliver additional shots if the double tap doesn't incapacitate the perp.

If you're facing multiple attackers, you want to put one shot COM in each of them as quickly as possible, and be prepared to instantly deliver any additional shots needed to stop them.

 

[jad0110]

Most LEO and civilian handgun instructors teach center-of-mass (COM) shots to the chest area, because headshots are noticeably more difficult to make under the high-stress conditions of being attacked. The overwhelming majority of both LEOs and civilians don't/won't practice enough to become proficient at headshots, thus COM shots are the teaching standard.

Yep, that follows the KISS principle too (Keep it Simple Stupid).

There are also more vital structures in the upper chest; therefore the odds of stopping the aggression are increased.

As for headshots, not only is the head a difficult target, but the shape and strength of human skull has been known to deflect bullets (depending on specific placement, angle and distance), including .357 Magnum (can you imagine the headache though ?)

 

[Rokyudai]

Was it that last shot that put the perp down, or was it the cumulative effect of the preceeding 9 shots?

I would suggest that a man shot in the torso 10 times would eventually go down, whether or not the pelvis was hit.

Ha..thought of that, but, he was not just shot in the torso either. I guess it would have been better proof had he been shot in the pelvis first or 2nd or 3rd or 4th to make it a more convincing example.

HP's:
1st shot of .38 to his forearm (obliterating the tissue)
2 shots of .38 in the chest
1 shot of .38 point blank to the side of the torso
1 shot of .38 to the solar plexus

1 shot of .38 to the top of the head (near contact distance) --1st time BG went down...and got up to fight some more.

2 shots of .38 again to the chest
1 shot again of .38 to the abdomen
1 shot to the pelvis of .38 to the pelvis shattering it.--went down again and stayed down but still 'alive'.

I would think it's similar to shattering load bearing beams in one's house, then have them put under additional stresses to see how long it takes for it to collapse under its own weight.

ETA: This guy was also hopped on PCP so results are likely atypical.

 

[Car Knocker]

As someone who once had his pelvis broken in 3 places (open-book fracture), I can say my mobility was reduced but I was still conscious and capable. If this had been the result of a shooting, I would have still been capable of returning fire and dragging myself to cover.

 

[Eyesac]

HP's:
1st shot of .38 to his forearm (obliterating the tissue)
2 shots of .38 in the chest
1 shot of .38 point blank to the side of the torso
1 shot of .38 to the solar plexus

1 shot of .38 to the top of the head (near contact distance) --1st time BG went down...and got up to fight some more.

2 shots of .38 again to the chest
1 shot again of .38 to the abdomen
1 shot to the pelvis of .38 to the pelvis shattering it.--went down again and stayed down but still 'alive'.

Good golly, what a monster! I've always thought of humans as thin skinned animals and easily killed, heck, there's another thread on here about a man getting punched in the face and dying, however if you have some freakshow like Mr 10x.38 well then I guess you have to get creative... a hip shot it certainly worth a shot!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I had a friend who was a Medical Examiner in Virginia. He had a case where a man was shot through the heart with a shotgun, the charge totally destroying the heart, and the man walked a block to his house, sat down on the steps and died.

He said a lawyer asked him "Do you expect us to believe a man walked a block with no heart?"

And he replied, "Yes, because that's what happened. There is a rule in science, if something did happen, it could happen."

But I'd be very sceptical about assuming a man shot 10 times was only stopped by the last shot. Remember, in the FBI's infamous Miami shootout the guy who did all the killing was shot several times, but the autopsy showed it was the first bullet that killed him, not the last.

 

[Hook686]

One advantage I see to the pelvis area shot is that the hip region cannot do quick movement fakes like the hands, arms, chest, feet, head can do. This fact might make a more stable patform to focus a shot on, with a better chance of making contact. At least I think of it that way and it worked well when playing ball.

 

[Burt Blade]

Keep in mind that making the bad guy fall down is not the same as making the bad guy stop being bad. It is improving the situation, but not resolving it. Even if you go for center mass, or center brain, "down" doesn't always mean "out". Stay in the fight until the other guy is out of the fight. (This applies even if you are retreating.)

 

[jad0110]

He said a lawyer asked him "Do you expect us to believe a man walked a block with no heart?"

Me back to the lawyer: "Well, you're still walking around, aren't ya?

Just joshin' with everyone, any lawyers on THR, please don't take offense .

 

[Rokyudai]

Eyesac: I agree. He wasn't nicknamed "The Terminator" for nothing!

Hook686: You made me think of something I haven't since HighSchool. The football coach always told the players to focus on the angle of the receiver's hips. Where they pointed was where that person was going, not the fancy deeks or foot work. It is an interesting observation you made, thanks!

Burt Blade: Good points for sure. Shoot to stop, not slow down.


OT relating to "The Terminator" case: I recall from a class I took in college "Vietnam: A Combat Soldier's Perspective", that some VC soldiers would smoke opium for a few days, then others would wrap tourniquets around their arms, legs, and wrap the body, supply him with an AK and have them go out berzerker style. It was incredibly demoralizing to our men...they wondered how someone could withstand magazine after magazine. Terrible stuff.