That's not contractual language, so the question remains the same: what does it cover, and what are the exclusions? Refer to the language in your agreement.
House of worship security teams and the 25-yard head shot
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old lady new shooter
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The Terms page of the website is the contract. They do not send a paper contract. This is similar to binding contractual agreements when purchasing software.
Please copy and paste the language found on the terms page that you apparently believe contradicts what I posted above.
Please copy and paste the language found on the terms page that you apparently believe contradicts what I posted above.
I see nothing there that seems to contradict anything.
It's just that those words do not specify what "civil liability coverage" will cover, and what it will not. It is customary for insurance contracts to spell that out.
The reason why I am posing the question is that, with very few exceptions, insurance policies do not cover the consequences of intentional acts. Is the CCW Safe agreement an exception? How do we know that? "Your $1,000,000 in civil damages protection is not consumed ..." does not say what the protection is.
old lady new shooter
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I read the language "Civil liability coverage stemming from a Recognized Self-Defense Use of Force Incident" as covering that. If the member is found to have used deadly force in self-defense and therefore is not found guilty of any crime, but is then sued by the aggressor or the aggressor's family for civil damages, then in addition to the regular policy covering the legal fees the member would be covered for $1 million of a civil damages award if s/he loses the civil case.
Stevie-Ray
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Of course, but I'm armed 100% of the time I'm going for a "nice hike in the woods, a run along a lake, or a country bicycle ride," as well. Should my church become a target, i.e. several shootings in the past few years, I would likely leave at least far quicker than I left Wayne County, which took retirement and a totally altered lifestyle. I don't see that happening, but there is the life I left behind, still not completely erased from the hard drive.
Armored farmer
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It is.
This is my attempt.
(actually 35yds because my target stand was already set up)
Am am not very proud of the results, however this is my actual cold shot group from draw. It was fired with my normal carry gun, and my regular carry ammo. I was rested, but i don't think I would take a 25-35yd shot unsupported.
5 shots
I try to do a little shooting at 20+ yards any time I get my carry gun to the range. It is both humbling to see how groups grow at those distances when shooting a compact/subcompact pistol and provides quite a sense of accomplishment when something approaching satisfactory can be achieved.
But more importantly, it's important to know one's capabilities/limitations.
But more importantly, it's important to know one's capabilities/limitations.
I would recommend that anyone serving as a member of a security team carry a full size service pistol. Compacts and subcompacts have their place but for duty use (and being a member of a security team is duty) I think that a full size service pistol is necessary.
Equipping a security team is worth a thread of its own.
Equipping a security team is worth a thread of its own.
I couldn't agree more.
Preparing oneself for a defensive situation that may well involve ranges far beyond 5-7 yards , and selecting for that situation a flat-no pinky finger grip pistol with a very short barrel and low capacity does not make sense.
1942bull
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I am recalling my stint in the Corps when my primary weapon was a M1911. In both our initial training and subsequent practice and drills we would try for head shots at 25 yards on a paper target. It was relatively easy to make the shot. However, one time our instructor had us run 200 meters before we stopped ad took. A shot intended for the head. No one out of 15 of us were able to do it. The instructor told us that he had ordered the run to simulate shooting in an action environment. It was a good lesson for us. We knew that if ever in action that we would be shooting at center mass. Going for the kill shot to the head is much less likely to be successful that going for incapacitation from CM hits.
Palladan44
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I believe precision shooting along with quick point shooting for tactical training is always a good idea.
If youve already mastered making accurate and consistent headshots at closer ranges, and your skill allows you to be consistent at 25 yards where practice is productive and not ruining your confidence, why not do it?
With all of this said, i believe 25 yard consistent headshots where practicing it would be viable is in the upper 10% of the skill level of your average self defender. I personally do not train out to these distances.....but i always forget that my small silhouettes are slightly bigger than 1/2 of real life size...hmm.
If youve already mastered making accurate and consistent headshots at closer ranges, and your skill allows you to be consistent at 25 yards where practice is productive and not ruining your confidence, why not do it?
With all of this said, i believe 25 yard consistent headshots where practicing it would be viable is in the upper 10% of the skill level of your average self defender. I personally do not train out to these distances.....but i always forget that my small silhouettes are slightly bigger than 1/2 of real life size...hmm.
old lady new shooter
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Excellent idea. I'd be very interested to see that and I'm sure others would too.
I think that people don't have a good feel for what it means to be consistent at 25 yards under real-world conditions.
I can shoot sub-6" groups at 20+ yards, standing and unsupported with my subcompact 9mm carry gun. Last time I went to the range I shot 10 rounds of my carry ammo into 5.5" at 21 yards. I've done better than that. I have a 12 shot group at 25 yards that was under 5"--also with my carry gun & ammo. I wouldn't call that amazing, but the range owner definitely looked surprised when I showed him the target and the gun I shot it with.
I'm good to go, right? Not even close. I've shot in a competition that required shooting 10 shots at 25 yards starting from low ready and at a rate of about 1 shot every 3 seconds. A perfect score means keeping all 10 shots in an 8" circle. You can shoot it with a full-sized pistol and I always did. Should be easy after what I just said I could do, right? Well, I have cleaned that course, but not every time by any means. Just adding a time constraint--and not a very stringent one at that, makes a big difference. Even being able to shoot it with a full-sized gun didn't make up for adding the time constraint.
I'm not going to try to rigorously defend the degradation figures below, they are just my gut feel--call them wild guesses, But what is sure is that there is SOME level of degradation for each increase in complexity. Some of them might be too much degradation but most of them are probably too little.
Let's assume that a person can shoot 5" groups at 25 yards consistently with a full-sized pistol under ideal conditions at the range with no time constraints.
Degrade it 15% for changing to a sub-compact carry gun.
Degrade it 15% for adding in time constraints--not getting to take a controlled breath and settle into a solid stance, maybe not getting a perfect grip on the gun, not taking all the time required to align the sights perfectly.
Degrade it 20% for adding in distractions--other objects moving around the target, people screaming, shots being fired.
Degrade it 50% for adding in target movement.
Degrade it 5% for lighting considerations--your sights may not be illuminated properly, the target may be moving in and out of different lighting conditions.
Degrade it 50% for pressure--people getting shot/killed in the near vicinity, perhaps being shot at.
I think that those are very generous figures. For example pressure alone could cause easily groups to double in size or even grow more than that--a 100% degradation in performance or greater. Target movement could easily cause the same kind of degradation, especially for someone who's never practiced shooting at a moving target with a pistol.
But even the numbers above, conservative though they may be make the point. Starting out with consistent 5" groups under ideal range conditions with a full-sized pistol, those factors increase the group size to almost 19". In other words, the difference between being able to make head shots 100% of the time to not really even being certain of making a center of mass shot.
I agree with all of that. That's why I doubt that I would attempt the 25 yard head shot in a critical situation.
And this :
Of course you would avoid an imminent attack. When does one get that king of warning in real life?
Recent history tells us that the threat is always out there. The question is whether to brush the subject aside and just play the odds , hoping for the best , or to take some measure of preparation , in the unlikely event that the short straw comes up.
I choose "B".
And this :
Of course you would avoid an imminent attack. When does one get that king of warning in real life?
Recent history tells us that the threat is always out there. The question is whether to brush the subject aside and just play the odds , hoping for the best , or to take some measure of preparation , in the unlikely event that the short straw comes up.
I choose "B".
That's not good enough to hit the CNS of a person standing still.
Add time constraints.
Add movement.
Eliminate the "ideal conditions" proviso.
Good Ol' Boy
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My only experience comes from being an at home practitioner and devoted competition shooter.
25yd head shots with a pistol under stress are a fairytale for anyone outside of luck.
COM shots are certainly more practical but even those at that distance, with a pistol, under real world stress are unlikely.
As self defenders taking long distance shots isn't generally part of the prerequisite. Thats not to say that practicing those things doesn't enhance training.
In competition we regularly shoot headshots but they are more like 10yds and in. At 25yds and beyond most shooters are lucky to get bravo's COM.
As to the mention of overwatch in church I've often wondered the same. The church I grew up going to had a sound booth above the back of the sanctuary. Would be a perfect place for a competent "security personnel" to be posted with an AR.
25yd head shots with a pistol under stress are a fairytale for anyone outside of luck.
COM shots are certainly more practical but even those at that distance, with a pistol, under real world stress are unlikely.
As self defenders taking long distance shots isn't generally part of the prerequisite. Thats not to say that practicing those things doesn't enhance training.
In competition we regularly shoot headshots but they are more like 10yds and in. At 25yds and beyond most shooters are lucky to get bravo's COM.
As to the mention of overwatch in church I've often wondered the same. The church I grew up going to had a sound booth above the back of the sanctuary. Would be a perfect place for a competent "security personnel" to be posted with an AR.
We need first to distinguish between "head shots" and CNS hits.
It is an important distinction. I did not address it in my post because it was covered pretty thoroughly in an earlier post on this thread by another poster and because my focus was on the degradation in accuracy due to real-world factors that don't affect groups shot at the range.
The group sizes I started with in my post were based on what I can do with my carry gun at 25 yards or so. It was convenient that they are about the same size as would be required to make a head shot (but not good enough to guarantee a CNS shot), but the main point is how the real world degrades accuracy.
The group sizes I started with in my post were based on what I can do with my carry gun at 25 yards or so. It was convenient that they are about the same size as would be required to make a head shot (but not good enough to guarantee a CNS shot), but the main point is how the real world degrades accuracy.
old lady new shooter
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The terms page has some language stating that the product is not insurance, EXCEPT for the separate civil liability coverage.
gyp_c2
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Not to mention differences in anatomy, angles, and what a bullet might do hitting something other than that 2-3" bullseye.
whughett
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At my weekly range visit yesterday a gentleman at the station next to mine had a most unusual target set up. Black line on white human size head silhouettes printed on copy paper size. Unusual in that they depicted a hostage situation with the hostage in full and the bad guy in less than half silhouette behind.
Posted at 12 yards he could keep his shots on the bad guy consistently shooting from a seated hand rest position, standing in combat stance the misses were few but there were misses. I struck up a conversation with him he was retired law enforcement but beyond that didn’t ask why one would be practicing on such a target. Aim small miss small perhaps.
Posted at 12 yards he could keep his shots on the bad guy consistently shooting from a seated hand rest position, standing in combat stance the misses were few but there were misses. I struck up a conversation with him he was retired law enforcement but beyond that didn’t ask why one would be practicing on such a target. Aim small miss small perhaps.
Less that , than Practice what you expect to be Presented.
When ever you think you'll be shooting other than at a range, it is unlikely that you'll ever get a clear and open shot. It doesn't even have to be a hostage situation, it could just be people moving between you and your target. Being presented a clear body shot is also unlikely. Being able to find a rested position that isn't also blocked is also unlikely.
12 yards is 36 feet. That is about double to size of a bedroom...maybe the size of a small family room. If you can't consistently make that shot from an unsupported shooting position...especially on a static target...one should either rethink their options or seriously look into getting more advanced training
JCooperfan1911
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Honestly at my church we are not concerned with it considering the rarity of this type of situation.
In addition if it is my time to be called to the flock, then so be it.
In addition if it is my time to be called to the flock, then so be it.
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