How are black powder revolvers so affordable?

[NoirFan]

So I’m just getting into single action revolvers, and I am astounded at the low prices on Western style repros. Looking around at Cabela’s I see new-made repros of guns like the 1858, SAA, and the Walker for $250-400 and I can’t understand how these are so cheap. I’ve always heard that a big part of the cost of guns like S&W and Colt DAs and high-end 1911s were due to the need for hand fitting and / or intricate lockwork, as compared to simpler modern designs. But I can’t imagine the old West designs are any less reliant on hand-fit and -finish than say, a Colt Python. They are also made in Italy so it’s not like they’re taking advantage of cheap labor in developing countries.

Is it because BP guns don’t need as much heat treatment? Or maybe because there are special taxes and licensing involved with making cartridge guns? Probably both, but there must be more to the story. Am I missing something?

 

[Olon]

I'm also curious.

 

[JeffG]

Someone might correct me on this, but my experience is that brass frame revolvers shoot out of time quickly. Stick to steel frame brand name.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I have worked for gun shops and a rifle manufacturer in the past and can shed a little bit of light on the subject. When a modern firearm is manufactured and sold there is an excise tax that is collected. This tax cost is passed on to the customer. I believe the tax is to the tune of 11 percent or it used to be. That will certainly raise prices.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I’m a cowboy action shooter and I often have new shooters asking if they can use one of these imported cap and ball revolvers with a drop-in conversion cylinder to shoot cartridges (percussion revolvers are allowed under SASS rules but it is a lot of work to load a pair of “capguns” for a typical six stage monthly match).

My recommendation generally is to buy a pair of cartridge guns. Probably less trouble in the long run.

I have some thoughts why the percussion revolvers are so cheap but they are largely conjecture so I will await the answer from an informed source.

 

[.308 Norma]

Demand might have something to do with the affordability of black powder revolvers. It seems to affect the affordability of most everything else.

 

[joed]

Demand and maybe the fact that the weapons are pretty much obsolete probably keeps the price down.

 

[Texas10mm]

Low demand means higher prices. Basic econ.

 

[LRDGCO]

I have worked for gun shops and a rifle manufacturer in the past and can shed a little bit of light on the subject. When a modern firearm is manufactured and sold there is an excise tax that is collected. This tax cost is passed on to the customer. I believe the tax is to the tune of 11 percent or it used to be. That will certainly raise prices.

As far as I know, black powder firearms are subject to Pittman-Robertson excise taxes as well. P-R excise taxes and hunting fishing license fees constitute the overwhelming source of conservation funding in the US. It’s about the only tax I’m happy to pay

 

[Mizar]

Quality (or actually lack of it) is what's keeping those prices down. I assume we are talking Pietta and Uberti, right? Cheap steel, cheap heat treatment, cheap finishing & broader tolerances equals low production cost. Just because they are shiny does not mean they are of good quality. They are OK, but they are definitely not good. Accept that fact and live with it, that's it.

 

[.308 Norma]

Low demand means higher prices. Basic econ.

Not always. Compare the price of housing in southern California to the price of housing in southern Idaho. Except in southwest Idaho where 100,000 Californians moved to and drove the price of housing through the roof. Increased demand meant increased prices. Common sense.

 

[Gridley]

A few things are probably at work.
As I recall modern propellants have higher maximum pressures for the same total energy. That means a BP firearm can be built with less, or weaker (and thus generally cheaper) material.
Looser tolerances. I own one BP pistol (Uberti) and the fit of the parts is far below my modern S&W revolvers. That's a HUGE savings. Since the original designs couldn't count on tight tolerances (by modern firearm standards), this isn't a "bad thing".
Reduced regulation. Can't speak to the above point on taxes, but there are other savings. Just as an example, modern firearms need to have serial numbers. It doesn't cost much to put the S/N on there, nor much for the company to store the data, nor much to report that S/N to the Feds. But it does add up.
Shorter design life (in terms of rounds fired). This is an educated guess, but the functional life of a new BP revolver is probably a lot less than that of a new modern revolver. This is an entirely reasonable design decision - it takes a lot more effort to load and fire a cap-and-ball revolver than a cartridge one, so you can expect it to be shot less. That means you can, again, use less or cheaper material.

 

[bassjam]

Low demand means higher prices. Basic econ.

Basic econ says the opposite.

 

[J-Bar]

I’m a cowboy action shooter also. The Italian guns are a lot of fun for the money. They are not finished or fine tuned like the original Colts and Remingtons; most of my fellow competitors and I consider them pre-assembled kits. They will go bang out of the box most of the time, and for many folks that is sufficient. The initial market for these guns were mostly Civil War re-enactors or western enthusiasts who could not afford historic originals. I dont know of any CAS competitors who use them in matches without having some work done on them. Smoothing internal surfaces, replacing factory nipples and springs, installing cap rakes to prevent cap jams, etc. Piettas typically have imprecise bolt-to- notch fit, Ubertis are known for tragically short arbors. Those need to be corrected in a race gun.

The Ruger Old Army percussion revolver is considered by most to be the best ever made, and it is worth many times more than the basic Italian historic copies because of its strength and reliability and freedom from cap jams as an unmodified revolver. Even then it is rare to find an ROA that has not been “improved” for competition.

So all of that is to say that the Italians produce a fair value for what you pay for. I have owned and enjoyed a bunch of them, tinkering on them and shooting them.

Log into the Blackpowder Forum if you are really interested in these guns, lotsa pix over there too!

 

[Gridley]

Basic econ says the opposite.

I'm an engineer, not an economist, but I think you're both using economic principles for raw materials, not finished goods.

Even a "reproduction" firearm today will require a design/test cycle. That's a bunch of pricey man-hours. You also need tooling. That's also pricey.

It doesn't really matter whether you're making 10 things, or 100, or 10,000, you're probably looking at similar up-front costs, and those probably dwarf the individual item cost.

A modern firearm has more up front cost, but except for premium firearms (which command premium prices) it will probably have a larger production run than a modern repro, which means you can divide the up front costs among more production units.

So today you're pretty much guaranteed to loose money on the first firearm you sell. But you spend a lot less in materials on that first gun than you sell it for. Sell enough and you make back your startup cost. Every one after that is profit. You try to figure out what the market will pay for your product so you can break even as soon as possible (in one business model, anyway).

 

[WestKentucky]

Pressure. Cartridge guns whether they be new or old designs are made of modern steels with heat treatment processes and such. The material is better in many ways, often hardened, and that is more expensive. It’s also harder to machine modern stuff due to the mechanical characteristics of the material, which requires more machines, more tools, more time, more expense. Take off a big chunk of tooling costs, another big chunk of material cost, cut labor in half, and lower the quality control standards a bit and you go from a $700 Smith or $500 Taurus to a $250 Uberti. Not to mention that there is essentially zero R&D in the guns because design and function was established a century and a half ago, and the shapes are not super complicated.

 

[Mizar]

Thinking that firearms business does not obey the free market laws is as silly as thinking that firearms operation does not obey basic physics laws... But yet we do so.

 

[drobs]

Conversion cylinders aren't cheap. Figure $250 for a steel frame BP revolver + another $200 for a conversion cylinder = a cartridge revolver price.
Then look at inexpensive cartridge revolvers from Taurus, Rock Island, and Pietta / Uberti. I can find a $250 cartridge revolver on the market.

Example Rock Island M206 for $235
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/800597033

 

[CraigC]

Cartridge guns cost more to make. They must be proofed and made of stronger materials. Blackpowder guns operate at low pressure ~10,000psi or less and thus, do not require stronger alloys necessary for smokeless cartridge guns. Which means they are also easier to machine.

As far as quality, fit & finish, I find no difference between the percussion and cartridge guns. The current crop of Uberti and Pietta guns are very nice indeed.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Quality (or actually lack of it) is what's keeping those prices down. I assume we are talking Pietta and Uberti, right? Cheap steel, cheap heat treatment, cheap finishing & broader tolerances equals low production cost. Just because they are shiny does not mean they are of good quality. They are OK, but they are definitely not good. Accept that fact and live with it, that's it.

This.

That's why you can't run SAAMI spec smokeless loads in them, no matter how recently they were made. The smokeless cartridge conversion cylinders (which cost as much as the revolvers) enable that, but you're still going to see more frame stretch and timing issues, even running mild loads.

That said, I've generally found the fit & finish on Uberti & Pietta BP guns to be excellent. But they're still made of weaker material than their cartridge counterparts.

 

[beag_nut]

My Rem 1858 repro, made by Santa Barbara in Spain (now out of business) has excellent workmanship yet still cost only $99 used, a few years ago. Because nobody else wanted it. Demand sets the market.

 

[kidneyboy]

I am pretty sure that black powder guns are considered "antique firearms" and are not subject to the same federal regulations as regular firearms. You don't need to register black powder guns. They can be mailed to your home and you can buy them off the shelf at the store. Taking all the federal and state regulations and taxes out of the equation makes for cheaper firearms.

 

[J-Bar]

I am pretty sure that black powder guns are considered "antique firearms" and are not subject to the same federal regulations as regular firearms. You don't need to register black powder guns. They can be mailed to your home and you can buy them off the shelf at the store. Taking all the federal and state regulations and taxes out of the equation makes for cheaper firearms.

Laws vary from state to state, but in general muzzleloader rifles and handguns enjoy a bit less attention than cartridge firearms. One should always check local and state laws to avoid problems.

 

[LRDGCO]

Conversion cylinders aren't cheap. Figure $250 for a steel frame BP revolver + another $200 for a conversion cylinder = a cartridge revolver price.
Then look at inexpensive cartridge revolvers from Taurus, Rock Island, and Pietta / Uberti. I can find a $250 cartridge revolver on the market.

Example Rock Island M206 for $235
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/800597033

chicken dinner!

That covers it. Even if one removes the markup on the conversion cylinder as a separate item, when that cost is factored in, reflecting the added expense of a relatively high pressure cylinder, the cost would be in the $550 - $600 range.

A decent 357 Mag revolver can be had in the $750 range, so if you consider the pressure difference and impact on build cost, this seems the most logical explanation.

 

[Jonesy814]

I have come to the conclusion that research, development and testing are a big part of a guns cost. An example would be the S&W Shield. I can buy one right now for under $300 and then get a $30-40 rebate. The shop makes a profit. The distributor makes a profit and S&W makes a profit all off a gun that I can get for $250. How much can it actually cost to make one? I would think that S&W can't have over $150 into materials and labor.