How do you aim rifle iron sights without a stock?

[MXan]

While shooting laser tag last weekend, I discovered my aim is terrible. While it was laser tag, the principles should be the same as with any rifle; hopefully that puts this onto the right subforum.

The guns are Tippmann made and part of the iCombat system (which is based on the IRTactical line, used for LE training). They are supposed to be accurate and indeed other players scored plenty of precision hits on me. The gun (Entertainment Advanced) is built somewhat like an MP5, has a small computer and IR "hit box" mounted on the right side (where a hopper would be on a paintball gun), and uses a pseudo aperture sight system. The back sight is like this one, while the front is like this one.

I could blame the gun, but I rather think it was my own ineptitude. Without a stock, I was never sure whether to hold it like an oversized pistol, with my arms mostly straight, or if I should hold it close to my cheek, where it would be if there was a stock, or somewhere in between. I'm also unused to the half-aperture sights. I assume the idea is to line up the back U with the front U so they overlap, leaving neither U higher or lower than the other; is that correct?

The top-scoring player, a guy in his 20s, said he "used the sights" for aiming, but didn't specify details. When I go back I'll check again to see if they are adjustable, though it didn't seem like it when I checked last time. In four hours of game time I never quite got it figured out; I'm hoping one of you has some advice so I don't lose to more eight year olds. :banghead:

 

[WardenWolf]

No stock? Well, it's doable, just not as easy. People do it with AR pistols, after all. It just goes to show you how ridiculous all those sci-fi "rifles" without stocks are. I used to play paintball and usually had a stock on my gun (otherwise I used the tank as a stock). I always made sure I could use my sights, though (one gun even had a red dot). People really didn't like coming under accurate fire from an Automag at long range, especially after I installed a pneumatic trigger which made it as fast as any electronic gun.

 

[Scooter22]

I'd pull it in close to my face and chest with my elbow held to my chest and side depending if your R or L. More stability. Just my non laser tag player opinion. All the guns I shoot are real.

 

[Bobson]

While shooting laser tag last weekend, I discovered my aim is terrible. While it was laser tag, the principles should be the same as with any rifle...

Are you also a notoriously bad shot with a real rifle? If there's one thing I know about Laser Tag, it's that Laser Tag sucks and shouldn't be used as a way to evaluate a person's real-world ability to do absolutely anything.

If you're so concerned with your shooting, go grab a pellet gun or 22 rifle and find out how you really shoot.

The top-scoring player, a guy in his 20s, said he "used the sights" for aiming, but didn't specify details.

He probably didn't specify details because he was cheating. I've played several times with my brothers in law, and without exception, when we're playing, one of us wins. And we're all cheating. Laser Tag has nothing to do with accuracy.

 

[MXan]

I'd pull it in close to my face and chest with my elbow held to my chest and side depending if your R or L. More stability. Just my non laser tag player opinion. All the guns I shoot are real.

I'll give that a try and see how it goes. If you get the chance to try something like the iCombat system with full gear, I recommend you do: they may not be real guns, but man is it still fun. Even the simplistic version we played was a blast, but the full set up has recoil, shock belts, reloading with actual mags, full-sized M4 guns, the whole shebang. Outside of actual combat, I think it is as realistic as it gets (and I have no desire to see actual combat).

Are you also a notoriously bad shot with a real rifle? If there's one thing I know about Laser Tag, it's that Laser Tag sucks and shouldn't be used as a way to evaluate a person's real-world ability to do absolutely anything.

He probably didn't specify details because he was cheating. I've played several times with my brothers in law, and without exception, when we're playing, one of us wins. And we're all cheating. Laser Tag has nothing to do with accuracy.

I've never shot a real firearm while moving around like you do in a woodland laser tag game, much less a rifle without a stock, so I have no frame of reference. I'd have to drive at least 8 hours, maybe more, to reach a gun range designed for that kind of practice. Though I suppose I could find somebody with some land and set up my own, then use my 22, but it has a non-removable stock.

As for the top scorer, it doesn't matter if he was cheating. He wasn't the only one hitting me, and I had trouble hitting anyone consistently outside of a few yards. I'm 99.9% sure it was either my aiming or something with the gun.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I shot a bushmaster arm pistol a lot as a younger man, and found that I made hits best when It was just resting on my forearm, with my upper arm straight down. So basically, shooting from the hip.
Trying to straight arm it and actually using the "sights" slowed me down quite a bit, and shot to shot wasn't nearly as consistent.

 

[FL-NC]

A method we used when wearing a pro mask/gas mask with irons or RDS when using a M4 or MP5 is to extend the weapon forward. If the sling is adjusted so that its tight when the weapon is extended, it actually helps. Also used this method for without a gas mask with the MP5K (the real short model with no stock)

 

[MXan]

I shot a bushmaster arm pistol a lot as a younger man, and found that I made hits best when It was just resting on my forearm, with my upper arm straight down. So basically, shooting from the hip.
Trying to straight arm it and actually using the "sights" slowed me down quite a bit, and shot to shot wasn't nearly as consistent.

That I did not try at all. Interesting.

 

[Captain O]

Put it in a gun vise and use a laser collimator and the appropriate downrange target. Not only will this save ammunition, but it will calm your nerves.

Prevent insanity and ammo. Use the equipment needed for the job.

 

[MikeInOr]

For laser guns with the gun mounted receiver tagging system pull it in tight... not so much for aim and steadyness but to sheild the target as much as you can without cheating. For the head band receiver mounted system I am a better shot with my arm extended straight but you leave a bigger target that can be seen easier if you are playing in the woods.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm also unused to the half-aperture sights. I assume the idea is to line up the back U with the front U so they overlap, leaving neither U higher or lower than the other; is that correct?

You aren't using the sights correctly.

There are no such things as half-aperture sights. The name, Aperture Sight, refers to the rear sight that you are looking through.

The circle/ring around the front sight is there to protect the front blade. It isn't meant to be aligned with anything...certainly not the rear aperture.

You're supposed to look through the rear aperture and place the front blade on the target.

You can use the sights either at arms length or closer to your face, it doesn't make a difference as long as you are aligning the sights correctly

While this subject is rather interesting, aiming a laser tag gun is OT for this forum. In order to keep this thread open, lets try to keep it in the firearms realm, focusing on using the sights on a stockless rifle/pistol

 

[MXan]

The circle/ring around the front sight is there to protect the front blade. It isn't meant to be aligned with anything...certainly not the rear aperture.

You're supposed to look through the rear aperture and place the front blade on the target.

That was probably my biggest problem then. I assumed the dual U-shapes were meant to line up, as if they cut a full-circle sight in half and then used a similar U up front to help folks align them (rather than just a blade).

While this subject is rather interesting, aiming a laser tag gun is OT for this forum. In order to keep this thread open, lets try to keep it in the firearms realm, focusing on using the sights on a stockless rifle/pistol

Should it be moved to another subforum? 'Cause I'm more than fine with that.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Should it be moved to another subforum? 'Cause I'm more than fine with that.

Nope, discussing sighting technique of short rifles is fine here, but we don't discuss shooting techniques of non-firearms.

It doesn't fit into Air Rifles and I don't think they'd appreciate it in S&T

 

[cuervo]

Your pictures are a little deceiving, since the picture of the front sight is shown looking through the rear sight (I hope). Looking up "iii-Arc" from the picture brings up a gaming page that shows a more normal image of regular sights:


which is pretty much a standard military sight where you center the front pin in the rear aperture. The front ears are to protect the pin as 9mm stated.

As to answering the best way to use it, I'd hold as far out as I could, like a pistol, but two-handed like a rifle. That would put the sights about where the should be if you had a stock on there. If the rear aperture is too close to your eye, it won't help you center the front sight.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If the rear aperture is too close to your eye, it won't help you center the front sight.

I have to admit that I come from a different school of using peep/ghost ring sights.

I was taught to look through the rear ring and let my subconscious center the front pin.

You can use your strong arm as a replacement for the stock by using the "Chapman" arm geometry

 

[olafhardtB]

There are some who cut the stock about at the pistol grip, shape it, and rest it on there cheek. A 22 cut this way with a low power pistol scope, cut to minimum legal legnth is great for shooting out of a car window for pest control.