How hard can it be to manufacture RF ammo?

[jim in Anchorage]

No I'm not talking about going into competition with CCI and cranking out millions of .22s a day. I'm thinking small amounts of obsolete rounds like .25 Stevens, .32 .38 .44 etc. Millions of these guns are out there and Many of the owners would like to shoot them. look at the way those Brazilian .32s get snapped up at $1 or more a shot.
If S&W could manufacture .22 shorts in 1857, how hard can it be?

 

[rcmodel]

Pretty hard.
In 2015, you have to figure in the cost of machinery to draw, form, and prime rim-fire cases, and make odd caliber lead bullets for them.

And then add in the huge cost of getting sued every time somebody shoots one in a 125 year old firearm and shoots their eye out when a case lets go.

No company wants to take on today's legal troubles to get a few antique firearms, 3/4 of which are unsafe at any speed 75 years ago, shooting 200 rounds a furlong per fortnight every full moon now.

rc

 

[jim in Anchorage]

As far as liability go's there must be a way around it. Think of all the glue and bailing wire .45-70s out there but I can buy the ammo in K mart. It would be impossible to sell shotgun ammo if we had to worry about the Damascus guns.
I just don't think it would be that hard for some one with machinist skills to tool up. We home swage bullets, why would a straight thin wall case be so hard?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Tom Grisham was talking about costs to set up a new rimfire plant. Cost for a new one was 50 million.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Again I am talking about limited, almost custom production. Sierra bullets got it's start making a handful of .224 bullets from fired .22 RF cases to cover a small demand not met at the time.
Thinking in terms of millions of rounds will not work here.

 

[rcmodel]

Thinking in smaller terms will not work here either, if you want to stay in business long enough to pay the first loan payment to set up and get started.

Making ammo for obsolete arms is not a simple thing to do.
Even disregarding the current liability risk.

The big ammo companies can offset the risk of modern cartridges being fired in older arms by the sheer numbers they make.
And the low percentage of rounds fired in Damascus shotgun barrels and worn out trap/
-door Springfield's.

It would be a VERY Low percentage of rounds fired in all the modern firearms.

Speciality / Obsolete RF calibers for guns that haven't been made in over 100 years present a much greater chance of things going south in a hand basket in a hurry!!!

rc

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Any chance that some of the old brass forming equipment still exists somewhere?

An operation to sell primed cases for obsolete rimfires could be something else to look at.

 

[Jim Watson]

The legend is that the tooling for Western Super Match Mk III was pushed out into the parking lot to rust.

BELL was able to set up with WWII equipment, but there isn't much army surplus Rimfire equipment.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

That's a idea^^ Load it at your own risk. As big as the CBAS thing has got I could see a market for Spenser's and Win Henrys and 1866s chambered in the correct RF if ammo was available. Put it up in period correct boxes.

 

[HammsBeer]

For the same reasons that few if any companies make parts for any other form of old outdated machinery...cost to profit ratio. Sure they could tool up and make old rimfire ammo in obsolete calibers, but when it costs $5 or $10 a shot who's gonna buy it in a significant quantity to pay for the startup? Anyone with an old gun like that would likely buy only a box or two in their lifetime just to shoot it a couple times for giggles. There isn't a huge crowd beating down the doors for these calibers. Companies follow where the money is; old antique rimfires is not it. Sorry.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Companies follow where the money is; old antique rimfires is not it. Sorry.

And how many times have you said "Wish I had thought of that?"

Doubt if many thought $3000 Sharps reproductions would last ether.

 

[rcmodel]

As Jim Watson said above.
Most, if not all of the old case forming and loading equipment was lost during the early days of WWI & again in WWII.

It was not a rumor either.

Entire ammo and arms factory's were cleared of old equipment to make room (and steel) to tool up for full tilt boogie war production of arms & ammo for the war effort.

Nobody was fighting with .25 RF Stevens, so the production lines were turned around, and the equipment scrapped.

To be replaced with new lines & machines making 30-06, .50 BMG, and .45 ACP, among other things!

Never to return again.



After WWI and WWII ended suddenly?
The ammo companies are nearly bankrupted after the military contracts are suddenly canceled and they were left holding the bag with 50,000 employees, huge facilities, and no customers for what they were making.

Old machines were sold for scrap to help pay the insurmountable bills.
It's all gone.
And replacing it now would be dollars no company could justify for the limited demand.



I think it could be done off shore in some third world country.
Maybe?

Old Western Scrounger got somebody to make some .41 RF for the old Remington Double-derringers years ago.
But it was loaded too hot and cracked the frames on some irreplaceable old derringers.

They learned a hard lesson rat there!!
Never to be tried again.

rc

 

[HammsBeer]

And how many times have you said "Wish I had thought of that?"

Doubt if many thought $3000 Sharps reproductions would last ether.

In a way you proved my point. If you want to make boutique rifles, they are going to cost a lot, which means only well to do people can afford them, so you have low production numbers. But you can charge a premium for nice bluing and wood, fit and finish, craftsmanship, etc to pay for the equipment and labor. The buyers can hang the rifle on display with a sense of pride, and will pay extra for the nostalgia experience. But they are also very susceptible to market ups and downs.

Apply that to antique rimfire ammo. Do you think the average shooter with Gramp's old vintage rimfire is going to cough up enough serious money over and over for one-time-use ammo in a mind numbing variety of calibers, enough to pay for machinery that likely would cost as much or more than what it takes to make rifles? If you think it's profitable, by all means make a startup company and start cranking out custom obsolete rimfire ammo.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I never mentioned using pre war machinery. I doubt the company in Brazil that made up that batch of .32 for Dixie arms had any.

 

[rcmodel]

O.K.
My mistake!

Please excuse me.

But I still say it isn't gonna happen for most of the reasons I mentioned.

(Leaving out the pre-war equipment & tooling would make it even more impossible for a modern company though.)

rc

 

[Bezoar]

the problems youll run into come into the priming stage. lots can go wrong in that stage.

However read any box of ammunition you have in your house or find on a store shelf. On a flap or side or back youll see this message:

Warning only to be fired in firearms in safe to use condition originally chambered for this caliber.

If you have the physical strength to resize a .308 winchester case to .243 winchester or full length size a 30-06 in a lee hand press you can do a rimfire round. one at a time.

sure youll need to create a custom die set but... SOME of the older rimfire cartridges could be modified from a modern made lee hand loader, the whack a mole kind.

 

[Jim Watson]

You might try to float it by Ramset or Hilti.
They make powder actuated tools driven by .22, .25, and .27 rimfire blanks.
I have read that the lead balloon .17 WSM is based on the .27's head diameter.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

CIL might have the old machinery. They made large RFs post war.

 

[rcmodel]

Let me try one more time.

1. There is not enough demand to make tooling up & production profitable for obsolete RF calibers.

2. The legal climate in the USA makes it a very high risk venture at best because the guns chambered for them were in many if not most cases, expendable cheap junk when they were brand new 100 years ago.

3. Not gonna happen, no matter how much we all wish it would.


I have long wished for a comeback of the .25 Stevens RF with the old FP lead bullet.
Revolver & rifles.

It would be a better small game round then the .22 LR, or the .22 WMR, or any of the .17's.

But

4: it's never going to happen, because it wouldn't be a flat shooting, blow'm apart Magnum, and people wouldn't buy it.

rc

 

[mnrivrat]

Perhaps a better approach is to find the source of the rimfire ammo that Navy Arms had sold and see what can be worked out from there.

Perhaps the equipment that was used then hasn't been lost .

 

[jim in Anchorage]

^^^ My mistake. It was imported by navy arms as you state, not Dixie. I am looking at a box right now.
MADE IN BRAZIL BY
CBC Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos
Av Humberto de Campos 3220-Ribeirao Pires-SP.
I might add this is recent production I bought these new maybe 10 years ago.

 

[mnrivrat]

FYI

CBC is one of the largest ammunition manufacturers in the world, with focus in production of small and medium calibers. The company´s range of products also include firearms, air rifles, bullet proof vests and ammunition components such as primers, propellants, cases and projectiles. CBC exports its products for commercial and law enforcement markets under the brand Magtech Ammunition. The company has its headquarters and three production facilities in Brazil, as well as two subsidiaries in Europe - the companies MEN in Germany and Sellier & Bellot in Czech Republic

 

[alexander45]

Most of those old rimfire rounds are black powder And that complicates the heck out of it

 

[jim in Anchorage]

mnrivrat I know[now.] I don't if they where making .32 RF already or if navy arms contracted them to make a run. Any way I never planed on being a importer. I just think it would not be that hard for any machine shop to make the tooling. think progressive loader speed.
Alex-plenty of BP substitutes.

 

[cluttonfred]

Perhaps to take this in another direction...do you know that is possible to handload for some obsolete black powder rimfire rounds using "acorn" .22 blanks in special, reusable cases? The complet kits (less powder and primers) are available from France in .32, .38 and .41 rimfire for about $120 bucks plus shipping including a dozen reloadable cases and 25 bullets.

See http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=335269&PBCATName=Rimfire and this neat article http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/OLD RIMFIRES/SHOOT THOSE OLD RIMFIRES AGAIN.htm

My parents have a little Stevens single-shot, .41RF derringer in a wooden case with exactly one original bullet, I am sorely tempted to get one of these kits and start building a whole little .41RF collection.