How Much Capacity Is Needed?

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I have passed on nothing that came from trainers.

I believe you. Except from on this forum of course. Where you are a moderator, and tend to speak of the subject of defensive firearms use with a large degree of confidence (some might say authority). I think you may find you have influenced more people than you realize.
 
No adequate, sufficiently inclusive, and verifiable data that are sufficiently complete and are applicable to support those conclusions. My post explained that.

"First, all of the incidents that Claude studies involved successful defenses. Second, when one notes the number of incidents in which the defender were afforded the opportunity to retrieve a firearm from another location, one quickly realizes that those data are not representative of street or parking lot encounters, in which charging attackers necessitate fast shooting and multiple shots. third, the incidents covered are only this in which someone chose to publicize them.

"Further, the most of the data remain unvalidated media reports".
He did not. He analyzed news reports published in a monthly magazine.



One more time:

"People do crave actual data. That's understandable.

"But we won't get much data regarding civilian defensive shootings, for several reasons:
  1. Very few civilian defensive shooting incidents occur.
  2. Data from police investigative reports are not collected for analysis.
  3. Participants in such incidents are responsibly advised by counsel to remain mum--forever, when fatalities occur.
  4. Participants in incidents that involve civil litigation, which is almost settled out of court, are bound by the strict terms of the settlements to maintain strict confidentiality forever.
  5. Few civilians wear body cams, and if they do the recordings will not prudently be made public
"I really hope this proves helpful."
A lot of data are recorded when police shootings occur, but what are made public is another thing.

Hmmm, guess I will trust and believe Claude and Greg over an internet moderator. Unless you have taught for years, was a professional journalist, teach professionally, and can give actual facts instead of internet hearsay. Sorry, but your words don’t hold water when compared to actual people that have studied civilian shootings.

Lefty
 
Hmmm, guess I will trust and believe Claude and Greg over an internet moderator. Unless you have taught for years, was a professional journalist, teach professionally, and can give actual facts instead of internet hearsay. Sorry, but your words don’t hold water when compared to actual people that have studied civilian shootings.

Lefty
I hate to put it quite this way, but data collection, validation , and analysis , and the use of same, are among my strong suits.

I have done a lot of teaching, but none on defensive shooting.

I have taken defensive shooing training, and I have reviewed quite a number of shootings, civilian and otherwise. And I am an actual person,

I know enough to know the limitations of what data are available.

Claude is more than a great guy, but I would not choose my magazine capacity on the basis of the limited data he has had available to him.
 
I hate to put it quite this way, but data collection, validation , and analysis , and the use of same, are among my strong suits.

I have done a lot of teaching, but none on defensive shooting.

I have taken defensive shooing training, and I have reviewed quite a number of shootings, civilian and otherwise. And I am an actual person,

I know enough to know the limitations of what data are available.

Claude is more than a great guy, but I would not choose my magazine capacity on the basis of the limited data he has had available to him.

Well KB, until you publish your military schooling history, your publications you have printed of actual events, and have ran shooting schools, your just an internet moderator to me. But you seem nice enough. And yes Claude and Greg are both real people, just like you claim to be, and I do listen to them. What I carry and how much I carry influenced by actual events. Not some internet hearsay.

Once again, collecting data from real civilian shootings do tell us something. It’s just not what some want to hear. Some would rather try to be cool and listen to bald headed tattoo guys in tight t shirts. I would rather listen to the old chubby guys that actually been there and know a thing or two since they seen a thing or two.

Lefty
 
Some would rather try to be cool and listen to bald headed tattoo guys in tight t shirts. I would rather listen to the old chubby guys that actually been there and know a thing or two since they seen a thing or two...

Once, I too had hair...

Now...

...I am bald, fat, and get short of breath practicing my tactical fantasy drills.
 
Well KB, until you publish your military schooling history, your publications you have printed of actual events, and have ran shooting schools, your just an internet moderator to me
Who I am and what I have done is not important. What I have said about the data and conclusions is. Bu., of course, one has to be able to understand it.

What I carry and how much I carry influenced by actual events.
What I carry is determined by training, by risk assessment, and by what I can reasonably carry all day. No one can reasonably and properly make such a determination from actual events--there are too many variables, and too few data.

If you want good training in the defensive use of a snub revolver, and while I wold never choose one for primary carry I would encourage such training, I do believe that Claude is your man.

But he cannot take from magazine reports that which is not there.

Take some time to study his, if you want to learn more:

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/the-allure-and-shortcomings-of-statistics-and-actual-data.869921/"]The Allure and Shortcomings of Statistics and Actual Data[/URL]
 
Just as an aside, on the issue of carryin a 19 with a ten round mag as versus a 26, there are folks who think they shoot a 26 better than a 19 . Various reasons are suggested. I found that I shot both pretty much equally in matches and advanced classes. Given the ban , no reason to carry the 19. I do shoot a 17 with 10 rounders in most matches nowadays.
 
Who I am and what I have done is not important. What I have said about the data and conclusions is. Bu., of course, one has to be able to understand it.

What I carry is determined by training, by risk assessment, and by what I can reasonably carry all day. No one can reasonably and properly make such a determination from actual events--there are too many variables, and too few data.

If you want good training in the defensive use of a snub revolver, and while I wold never choose one for primary carry I would encourage such training, I do believe that Claude is your man.

But he cannot take from magazine reports that which is not there.

Take some time to study his, if you want to learn more:

The Allure and Shortcomings of Statistics and Actual Data

So you don’t have any stats to prove Claude or Greg wrong? Shocking! Once again I will take real trainers with real experience and view the real data and real events and make my own schemes.

I see you are directing me to a page to disprove Claude’s works? Or all stats and data in general? And now only certain people with certain points of views can read and interpret data correctly? Wow KB, talk about trying to discredit Claude! Why don’t you publish this and set everyone straight? Why keep your intellect confined to THR? Goodness, you wrote a thread and are using it as proof of your point of view! LOL I put that up there with Dr Ketchum starting a “scientific journal” to publish her Bigfoot DNA findings. LOL I guess when you can’t win in one arena, you try to switch it to a field you can win at. Classic.

Don’t need your suggestions for trainers, but Claude and Greg are both awesome trainers. Have taken their classes and will take some more.

Lefty
 
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Just as an aside, on the issue of carryin a 19 with a ten round mag as versus a 26, there are folks who think they shoot a 26 better than a 19 . Various reasons are suggested. I found that I shot both pretty much equally in matches and advanced classes. Given the ban , no reason to carry the 19. I do shoot a 17 with 10 rounders in most matches nowadays.

Wasn’t the issue with ten round magazines for the G19? I thought I read that Glock mags, limited to ten rounds for the G19, had a bad habit of malfunctioning. If so, then the G26 would be a better choice, if true.

I have only used ten round mags for my G17 and G34 in classes and shoots, and never had a problem with the Glock or PMags in ten or 17 round versions.
 
I have used the Glock 10s and Pmags, Magpuls in 19s and 17s in matches with no trouble but somewhere I heard that HP were trouble. Out of budget to shoot those in matches.
 
More is better but that doesn't mean necessary.
As mentioned, if self protection is really the issue, the person in the mirror is very likely the primary threat.
 
Recently I have been contracted to perform illumination surveys on parking areas. This means going to apartment, industrial and commercial building parking lots at night to determine if the lighting meets code. Sooner or later I'll be asked to visit places after dark where 100 spare shots may not be enough.

The prudent person doesn't go into these areas alone if he has to go. 100 spare rounds aren't going to be worth the calories you burn carrying them if you're taken by surprise while you are conducting your survey. It's pretty hard to maintain situational awareness while you are involved with another task.
 
LOL I guess when you can’t win in one arena, you try to switch it to a field you can win at. Classic.
There is no winning and losing here. This is a discussion where everyone is free to express their views. This forum exists so people can learn. Everyone is free to take away what they want from the posts here. I'm not a statistician, I spent my adult life carrying and using firearms for a living. 20 years of my 28 year Army career were spent in the Infantry. I worked in law enforcement as a municipal police officer and a sheriffs deputy after I retired from the Army. I am a certified instructor and I've taught military, LE and private citizens. I've trained under many instructors including Louis Awerbuck, Pat Rogers and Jim Crews. Pat Rogers was a personal friend. I've also been around the internet for a long time. I moderated on the old Tactical Forums and on Lightfighter. These days I only moderate here at THR.

I personally think that Kleanbore is right about there not being enough data available to us to draw a lot of meaningful conclusions regarding civilian self defense shootings. I'm not saying Claude Werner, who I don't know is wrong, but I'm not going to say he's right either. I simply don't know. I base my carry decisions on my own experience. And that experience which is drawn from 45 years of real life experience is that there is no "basic load" of ammunition that will carry you through every possible encounter. Like I said earlier in this thread, everyone needs to make their own decision on how many rounds is enough. You need to base that decision on your experience and the threat. There are other factors that will go into that decision like what you can conceal wearing the proper dress for the activity you are conducting. And most importantly, you have to train to respond with what you have on you at the time of the encounter. That's my take, you can agree or disagree, I don't care. I'm not here to win anything. If you're here to win an internet argument then maybe you aren't here for the right reasons.
 
There is no winning and losing here. This is a discussion where everyone is free to express their views. This forum exists so people can learn. Everyone is free to take away what they want from the posts here. I'm not a statistician, I spent my adult life carrying and using firearms for a living. 20 years of my 28 year Army career were spent in the Infantry. I worked in law enforcement as a municipal police officer and a sheriffs deputy after I retired from the Army. I am a certified instructor and I've taught military, LE and private citizens. I've trained under many instructors including Louis Awerbuck, Pat Rogers and Jim Crews. Pat Rogers was a personal friend. I've also been around the internet for a long time. I moderated on the old Tactical Forums and on Lightfighter. These days I only moderate here at THR.

I personally think that Kleanbore is right about there not being enough data available to us to draw a lot of meaningful conclusions regarding civilian self defense shootings. I'm not saying Claude Werner, who I don't know is wrong, but I'm not going to say he's right either. I simply don't know. I base my carry decisions on my own experience. And that experience which is drawn from 45 years of real life experience is that there is no "basic load" of ammunition that will carry you through every possible encounter. Like I said earlier in this thread, everyone needs to make their own decision on how many rounds is enough. You need to base that decision on your experience and the threat. There are other factors that will go into that decision like what you can conceal wearing the proper dress for the activity you are conducting. And most importantly, you have to train to respond with what you have on you at the time of the encounter. That's my take, you can agree or disagree, I don't care. I'm not here to win anything. If you're here to win an internet argument then maybe you aren't here for the right reasons.

I just stated my options and when asked, I backed them up by factual information. When questioned, by KB I at first blew it off. Then he kept quoting and responding and ended up trying to move this personal attack to another plane all together. Maybe you need to public call out your brother moderator the same way you tried to do with me. Once again, you can say what you have done and I don’t care because it can’t be publicly proven.

I’m here to give my thoughts on a subject. If called out, even by a moderator acting like a regular Joe, I figure they are big enough to take criticism. Maybe I was wrong. It’s your forums, just like Facebook is Zuck’s. If I make a fact checker run away a cry, well then I don’t feel bad about it.

Lefty
 
So you don’t have any stats to prove Claude or Greg wrong?
";Prove Greg wrong"? No. The point is is that his data do not mean much regarding future events.

I see you are directing me to a page to disprove Claude’s works? Or all stats and data in general? And now only certain people with certain points of views can read and interpret data correctly? .
If you do not understand the discussion, I can see two possible reasons:
  1. You did not read it, or
  2. You do not have the background to understand it
If it is the latter, that's okay. There are many people who do not.

Wow KB, talk about trying to discredit Claude!
Explaining that peoplr should not draw the wrong conclusions from something does not discredit anyone.,

Why keep your intellect confined to THR?
I have been published.

Goodness, you wrote a thread and are using it as proof of your point of view!
Did you not understand it?
 
";Prove Greg wrong"? No. The point is is that his data do not mean much regarding future events.

If you do not understand the discussion, I can see two possible reasons:
  1. You did not read it, or
  2. You do not have the background to understand it
If it is the latter, that's okay. There are many people who do not.

Explaining that peoplr should not draw the wrong conclusions from something does not discredit anyone.,

I have been published.

Did you not understand it?

Once again, I see you are allowed to troll and attack yet I’m the one threatening to be banned.

Your views and post are your own. They are but one theory in stats. And it does not disprove Claude nor Greg’s studies.

Lefty
 
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