Shotgun vs. Carbine for home defense - I get it now!

[rc601962]

I used to think the carbine was a better choice for home defense. My thinking was that the carbine has a greater number of advantages. So, it must be better

It is true the carbine has more advantages:

1. Less recoil for faster follow up shots
2. Faster and easier to reload
3. Higher capacity
4. Easier to operate by a non-shooting spouse
5. Better long range performance

The shotgun has fewer advantages:

1. Greater likelihood of a one shot stop.
2. Easier to hit a target on the move

Then, it dawned on me. The issue is that the shotgun has the MORE IMPORTANT advantages for a home defense application. It is not about number of advantages. It is about the advantages that are most important to an extreme short distance dynamic gunfight in a limited area. The shotgun wins hands down.

1. Greater likelihood of a one shot stop.

No weapon guarantees a one shot stop. However, 00 buck will give you a one shot stop MORE OFTEN than a .223 or 7.62x39 round. Both will fail to stop with one shot. The shotgun will fail to do this less often.

This is important because at extreme short distance, even if your adversary is alive for 2 seconds after you shoot him, he can still shoot you. Unless your gun choice can put him down immediately, you also stand a high risk of dying.

2. Easier to hit a target on the move

In my home defense simulations, the first thing both the defender and the attacker did when contact was made was to MOVE. Your adversary will be moving. You will be moving. If you have more than one bad guy, you can bet the second bad guy will be scrambling after the first shot is fired. Shotguns are meant and designed to shoot moving things more effectively than carbines.

 

[Strahley]

I would only use a rifle for home defense if it were zombies breaking in

 

[ArmedBear]

At extreme short distance, neither a shotgun nor a carbine is a great weapon. The theoretical effectiveness of the round pales in comparison to the effectiveness of the weapon in a gunfight.

80% of firearms used in actual successful self-defense cases are handguns.

Lately, I've been shooting matches with a number of people who have actually shot and stopped attackers, on numerous occasions. One is the head of firearms training at the local police academy, after a long career with the FBI as a field agent and a trainer.

Do you know what I've NEVER heard from any of them? "A handgun is only good for fighting your way back to your rifle." I've also never heard anything about a shotgun being your best all-around defensive choice.

Do you know what I HAVE heard? "A hit in the chest with a .38 hollowpoint stops 'em real fast."

A lot of the advocacy for carbines and shotguns is from people who may make their livings spouting "truth" about firearms, but who have never so much as pointed a gun at an attacker. I haven't. Personally, I'm fine with listening to real people who have actually shot real attackers in self-defense, and observed the results.

Shotguns are meant and designed to shoot moving things more effectively than carbines.

That is true. An AR is not a great point-shooting weapon. However, a laser changes that equation considerably. It also changes it with a handgun. I tried out someone's DAO M&P snubbie the other day at 25 yards, with a laser on it. I easily put all 5 in well under a fist-sized group, and quickly. (Yes, you have to train to shoot a DA revolver accurately -- but you have to train to shoot a shotgun well, too, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.)

I'm an avid shotgunner, and I shoot a lot of rounds through shotguns at moving targets. I'm confident that I could hit anyone, any time, anywhere, in a defensive situation, with a shotgun, because I can hit much smaller, much faster, and much more distant targets, and I do it at least once a week, unless it's hunting season, when I'm out close to every other day. We didn't need to buy chicken this last Fall...

I don't keep a shotgun ready for HD. Nor do I keep a carbine. I do keep several handguns -- because they're an order of magnitude easier to deploy, secure, carry, and conceal, and because I have a number of 90 degree angles in my relatively small house.

Do what you will. Any gun beats no gun. Just remember that 00 Buck, while theoretically the best "stopper", is only really effective if you have the shotgun and can deploy it quickly, keep it out of the wrong hands, and you actually have the shotgun within reach when you need it.

 

[amd6547]

I prefer my M1 carbine to my shotguns...I am certain that I will get hits fast than with the shotguns. The M1 carbine is lighter than either of my shotguns, shorter, and handles much more quickly. I am satisfied with the performance of the 30 carbine soft point load
We all make our choices based on our needs...one is not "better
" then the other.

 

[JShirley]

The shotgun wins hands down.

In your opinion. You left out several characteristics of each, especially the multiple shot vs. single bullet.

In a nutshell, the carbine is overall the "best" choice, if the shooter is starting from ground 0. The shotgun becomes the better choice if the shooter only has a shotgun (since he can hunt more types of game with it, and it can be much cheaper), or if the shooter fires many more shotgun rounds than rifle rounds, making him smoother and faster under pressure with the shotgun than the rifle.

ArmedBear, one of the things that you should have heard was, "All handgun duty rounds* are underpowered." This is just one of the reasons why a longarm is always better if you're in a shooting fight.


*.38 Special-10mm/.357 Magnum power range

 

[jmr40]

Actually I would give the 2 advantages you gave to the shotgun to the carbine. Buckshot stopping power is good, but very much over rated. Proper rifle ammo will always be more effective. Proper rifle ammo is also less likely to over penetrate in household materials.

Hitting moving targets is only easier with the shotgun if your target is far enough away for the pattern to open. About the same distance where it starts to loose it's power and calling it self defense starts to become questionable.

A shotguns only real advantages are that they are much cheaper, and can be very versatile with a variety of loads.

 

[rc601962]

These are all great replies. The reason for my original post was to get feedback on my thought process.

JMR40, that is a good point about the pattern. Maybe at extreme short distances, a carbine would be better after all? You could probably shoot 3 times in the same time it would take to fire one shotgun blast of 00 buck. The hit potential might actually be higher with the carbine. Hmmm.

A huge thing would be to get factual, real world data on the effectiveness of .223 vs 00 buck at close distance. It seems this is not a settled issue.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

could be argued until you actually turned blue in the face I suppose. why not have both handy?
I keep my SXS 12 ga mag 'Coach' leaned in near corner by nite-lite. my Makarov in a spare cheapo holster velcroed to bedpost and my Marlin Camp .45acp w/10 rd magfull of +P 185gr jhp hanging on wall hook - just 'in case' I have to step out into the area around my place.

 

[rcmodel]

If the shotgun has the advantage over the carbine?

Then why is every SWAT entry team in the country armed with M4 type carbines?

rc

 

[Maverick223]

The never-ending debate...I chose a shotgun (Saiga S-12) as my primary, though I have been considering swapping that for the M1 Carbine lately. The carbine has better sights and is lighter and handier...besides the little carbine has much more "stopping power" than given credit for.

 

[Al LaVodka]

Not Again?!

Like other high-cap handguns the M-1 Carbine is very good, just longer than most.

If 80% of stopped criminals are stopped, BearArmed, w/a handgun that's becasue that's what they were stopped with. Talk about drawing false inferences! Were the remaining 20% NOT STOPPED by a handgun and the defender was tortured and killed in front of their family whom were next? What were the rest of the guns used, what were the circumstances, and what were the relative important outcomes (i.e. one-shot stops)?? Were these all cops, typically the most "prepared" but worst shooters in the community, who emptied their magazines at the target and hit them once in the head and twice in the left big toe from seven yards away??? You make no point, Sir. I presume you didn't "get it" as opposed to expecting us not to...

No single projectile on average will stop an attacker with one shot as a shotgun with buckshot (I personally prefer smaller than 00) does -- each pellet almost does the same damage as each pistol bullet only a) are more likely to hit the target plus b) hit it multiple times! They overwhelm the central nervous system, vital organs, and skeletal system. A pistol? Good luck, and no matter how good you think you are, much of it is just that with a single bullet even if it does hit -- luck. There are only case-by-case specific reasons to rely on anything but a shotgun IMO for HD for up to 15, maybe 30, meter ranges.

Yes RC601962, you get it now. {Sound of cherubs singing} One can lead a horse to water but can't stop them from coming up with excuses vs. reasons to defend their staked-in-the-ground feelings vs. thoughts. Nor do they balance the facts and come to a rational conclusion. They're horses. In fact, they often have to be whipped into shape. Regardless, Darwin has the final say.

Al

 

[jonboynumba1]

Then why is every SWAT entry team in the country armed with M4 type carbines?

in some cases there are good reasons for choosing supressed pistol cailber carbines or .223 rifles for those applications...however remember that

1) You are dealing with an entry team...that has at least a 70% DIS-advantage....deffending your home you have to be somewhat reactive...but you generally have the advantage...you can let them come to you (70% advantage and you know the layout and can use it. Apples and oranges

2) In many cases that has more to do with "cowboy-itis" and grown men wanting to live out their GI-Joe and SWAT team fantasies than need...the growing millitarization of our police forces has a downside in the mindest it perpetuates IMHO. Though I'm all for sending every officer through a carbine course or two and providing them a decent accurate semi-auto patrol carbine once they are quallified to use it...lets face it...there are serious proffessionals who choose the right tools and there are small town SOT's full of yahoos that practice repelling down the only 8 story building IN this little crappy town at 2AM because they are professional mall ninjas-LOL Everyone wants all the toys they can get...I can't begrudge them that...but they (police) need MP5's most of the time like I need a .50 barret for home deffense!

3) Shotguns are a great tool and I have a "bad arse one" but most of the time...I grab my pistol...because it's easier to corner and manipulate switchs doors locks and lights with...and easier to tuck behind my robe when the guy breaking into my truck turns into my neighbor tripping pulling his garbage-can out to the curb at 3AM when he realized "tomorrow was garbage day" But in a HOLY COW I need "The Wrath of God" firepower RIGHT NOW at my disposal in a form that doesn't send rounds through 3 houses in each direction....my friends...I give you the riotgun...and it comes in handy for making things fall down fast and making an awful mess of them doing so! So I guess I see a case for having both...since I use both

There was a time I was a carbine man...and I was surrounded by 40 acres of cattle and pasture up on a mountain (hill really...we called it a mountain here) but in an highly residential area...I'm HG and Shotgun man...I LOVE the peace of mind that the scattergun in hand brings a homeowner....but yeah....mostly the handgun seems to be the first tool that comes to hand. Now when we buy our dream house with at least 10 acres outside of town? I'll likely be carbine guy again! But there will always be riotgun by the nightstand...if only for my peace of mind!

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Let me comment on those starting points.

1. Recoil IS lower.

2. You don't need more shots with a shotgun. If it's a real concern get a Saiga.

3. See number 3.

4. Since when is a shotgun hard to operate? Get an 1100 if you can't figure out "rack and load". If your spouse can't operate a shotgun she shouldn't be using a gun period. Now, if your just assuming a woman can't use a shotgun, then I have news. See more at 11 on KC Channel 5.

5. RANGE?! Seriously? Who has a house in which you need more than 20 yards (maximum) of RANGE. The US Army, Marines, even the SEALS, LA SWAT, and GSG-9 issue shotguns for a reason. Namely that under 20 yards, shotgun v handgun v rifle is won by a shotgun. If not for 00 buck then for slugs.

On the shotgun points (#1 and #2 below carbines), right on.

Range. Range in home defense. It's like hearing the phrase "Ronald Reagan was a socialist". You have to scratch your head and add 2+2. If only to be certain that you still have a head and can do basic math.

 

[Maverick223]

Like other high-cap handguns the M-1 Carbine is very good, just longer than most.

Uhmm...the M1 Carbine is not a handgun, not by a long shot...and contrary to popular belief it DOES NOT fire a pistol cartridge, and DOES have greater energy than a .357Magnum.

A pistol? Good luck, and no matter how good you think you are, much of it is just that with a single bullet even if it does hit -- luck.

Uh, no. shot placement is critical, I would take a well placed CNS shot from a .22LR pistol over any long gun (12Ga. carbine, or otherwise) shot to the gut. Skill is still the most important factor, effective shot placement is paramount. I am certain there are some that perform just as well (and some that do better) with a handgun, I don't believe that most folks do, and I know that I am not amongst those that do, but that doesn't change the fact that some are more familiar and proficient with a handgun.

You have to scratch your head [...] If only to be certain that you still have a head

LOL

 

[Al LaVodka]

Whoa there fella!

Whoaaaaa Maverick. Whoa.

You aren't getting it, nor a well placed shot with a handgun. You'll point the shotgun, slap the trigger, it'll give you inches of room to spare and multiple "shots" on target simultaneously to do it with. Threat stopped.

Here's a nice sugar cube.

Al

PS: The M-1 Carbine is a GREAT handgun IMO.

 

[ejfalvo]

My HD of choice is my Beretta CX-4 in 45 ACP. I have it loaded with Hornaday CD and have 2 magazines in a mag holder on the stock. Accurate, reliable, and fun to shoot. I have handguns and a Sig 556 as well as shotguns but the CX-4 is the choice when I hear stranger than normal sounds in the nite.

 

[shockwave]

But in a HOLY COW I need "The Wrath of God" firepower RIGHT NOW at my disposal in a form that doesn't send rounds through 3 houses in each direction....my friends...I give you the riotgun

This mirrors my thinking, which is why I've got both solutions handy and loaded - handguns and .12 ga Persuader. You wouldn't necessarily respond to all threats in the same way. Some situations make the handgun a better choice, some argue for the shotgun. Depends on a lot of factors. Are you awake? Are you groggy and rolling out of bed? The shotgun has the light - better for target acquisition in the dark. Are you responding to the sounds of calamity outdoors or breaking glass in the other room?

For basic defense, the .357 with Corbon DPX should handle anything general in scope, but if I want massive firepower the shotgun is a go-to option.

 

[Maverick223]

You aren't getting it, nor a well placed shot with a handgun. You'll point the shotgun, slap the trigger, it'll give you inches of room to spare and multiple "shots" on target simultaneously to do it with. Threat stopped.

All i'm saying is that there are folks (that I am not amongst) that handle a handgun better than a long gun.

PS: The M-1 Carbine is a GREAT handgun IMO.

Again...th 1 Carbine is not a handgun. See below:

M1 Carbine:

Handgun:

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

Apartment complex or close house spacing:

Shotgun with #4 to #7.5
9mm handgun

Out in the country with lots of land between houses:

.308 semi-auto rifle
9mm handgun

 

[Zack]

I would only use a rifle for home defense if it were zombies breaking in

What is it always with zombies? what do they look like? I have never seen a zombie..

If you live close to other people, like in a APPT use a shotgun, do not want to shoot through walls.

I think shotguns are best choice for HD.

 

[Maverick223]

What is it always with zombies? what do they look like?

Here's a picture of em':

 

[JShirley]

The US Army, Marines, even the SEALS, LA SWAT, and GSG-9 issue shotguns for a reason..

Yeah...it's called "breaching". I was Army infantry, and we were issued shotguns per squad...for breaching. I was attached to two different ODA (3rd and 7th) Groups. They had shotguns. For breaching.

I will say, the shotguns kept in the vehicles weren't for breaching. But I never saw a SF soldier carry one, either, just a Serbu. FOR BREACHING.

 

[jobu07]

Yeah...it's called "breaching". I was Army infantry, and we were issued shotguns per squad...for breaching. I was attached to two different ODA (3rd and 7th) Groups. They had shotguns. For breaching.

I will say, the shotguns kept in the vehicles weren't for breaching. But I never saw a SF soldier carry one, either, just a Serbu. FOR BREACHING.

+1 Couldn't say it better myself.

 

[HJ857]

I think discussion like this always needs a dose of hard data. I'm always surprised that the Box O Truth is seemingly not as well known as it should be.

Regardless of your firearm of choice, it would be wise to assume that you'll miss (even if you don't). With that in mind, it would also be a good idea to have some reference for penetration through walls.

shotgun:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

9mm, .45 and .223
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

 

[LibShooter]

Right now, within easy access to my bed are:

1) An M1 Carbine.
2) A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot
3) A .45 1911

If, God forbid, something goes bump in the night, and given a choice, what am I going to grab?

Easy. The Carbine. I've shot thousands of rounds through it and I love it. I've shot many hundreds of rounds through the other guns. They are fine, but I don't love them.

Within obvious limits, in a real HD situation, I think how you use a gun is more important than the number and size of the projectiles coming out the business end.

Disclaimer: Over penetration is absolutely not an issue at my house. I have no nearby neighbors and all my family is likely to be in the bedroom during any situation. If you have kiddies or close neighbors, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.