shotgun vs rifle for home defense

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Excessive force

There are many cases that show excessive force by Police officers shooting someone with Pistols and being prosecuted for it. It happens. Some are in Jail for it, even though one bad guy had a knife and was shot 42 times by 3 officers. Also in my home town an older man is serving time for excessive force for killing a teen age intruder, in his home with an AK rifle. He shot the kid 7 or 8 times. The jury was not sympathetic to him at all because of the gun he used. After that case I put my assult rifles in my gun safe with all my class 3 guns and that is where they will stay. A shotgun or a levergun rifle will do the job without me being prosecuted. Regardless I respect your opinions . Heck, I am almost 69 and do not want to play that game. No disrespect here, just a different opinion. sincerely Snooperman
 
killing a teen age intruder, in his home with an AK rifle.
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Outside of the Fish case in AZ, I've never heard of a legit home SD shooting going against the homeowner because he "overkilled" the perp. And the Fish case was not in the home, and Fish had a BAD lawyer.

Your logic may be good advice in some jurisdictions but not for the whole of Texas as far as I can tell. Personally I think you should bring the most you can. I always shake my head when folks start threads about what cheep Bryco or Jennings quality handgun they should use for SD. They don't want to use one of their "expensive" guns for HD because they might not get it back from the police :rolleyes:
 
Also in my home town an older man is serving time for excessive force for killing a teen age intruder, in his home with an AK rifle. He shot the kid 7 or 8 times. The jury was not sympathetic to him at all because of the gun he used.
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Maybe shooting 7 or 8 times had something to do with it, not the type of firearm used.
 
to me, it is NOT a very long stretch to think that a judge and more importantly a JURY wouldnt be swayed by the fact someone used a


OMG! AK-47!


even an AR I would be more comfortable using, it is "Americas Rifle" in the eyes of most people. As opposed to a "Terrorist Machine Gun".


I think this IS a legitimate concern, and yet another checkmark in the box for a shotgun.

Shotgun people, it kills better, its more PC, its cheap to replace when they confiscate it, its just downright THE choice.



Now my wife doesnt like the shotgun, so its a pistol for her. She is lukewarm to the AR.
 
I am not sure that there is one correct answer. Everyone's situation and requirements are different. There is no one-size-fits-all scenario here.

I personally would prefer to use a carbine but... because of the neighborhood I live in and being in close proximity to neighbors, I could not, in good conscience, endanger them with over-penetration of rifle fire.

When I lived in rural WV this was a no-brainer for me. But here... I struggle with what I want to do and what I feel is the correct course of HD for me, and my neighbors. I am surrounded in every direction by neighbors.

Here is where I live. Does anyone disagree that this is not a carbine safe environment? As stated earlier, I don't think there is a blanket answer to this question.

Capture.gif
(BTW, you can tell this photo was taken on a Monday, the garbage cans are out)
 
Tim,

I think you could use an AR15 with the right ammo, or a SG with the right ammo.

Does anyone disagree that this is not a carbine safe environment?
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There is a segment of this board's population that either believe you can take only "can't miss" shots (so over penetration is not a problem) or sending lead into a neighbors house is ok because either a) memorize when they are home, b) their lives are insignificant compared to your own, or c) they will learn a valuble lesson about not wearing body armor.

Personally, if I were you, I'd chose my ammo on the conservative side in case you miss a shot but still go with a carbine. As far as guns go, the SG or a 5.56 carbine seem to give the best performance in stopping power for a given level of acceptable penetration.
 
I can not disagree with some of your assumptions.

J.Shirley could be correct in the 8 or 9 shot thing too. And TimM, I do think where you live and the type of people there can make a big difference. There really are no absolutes when it comes to the use of guns to kill another person. Attitudes seem to vary from place to place. I know for many years I kept my Colt SP1 Ar-15 near my bed each night. One thing is for sure , the media always show the assault rifles in a different light than a pump shotgun and will play it up too, and the Anti gun groups start their feeding frenzy.
 
dom1104 I share your thoughts

Historically, the shotgun has been with us as a homestead protector for as long as we have had a country. And the lever action rifle or carbine has been seen in countless movies of the old west, makes these guns far more acceptable in the view of most Americans as Home defense weapons. Today I use the coach gun and pump shotgun as well as a lever action carbine for HD. Most of my hunting on my farm is done with an old Ithaca pump shotgun and a bolt action rifle. But I do enjoy blasting away with my Colt AR-15 on the back end of the farm after hunting season.
 
TimM

A light weight .223 hollowpoint or other type of frangible/expanding round tend to break up rapidly when hitting walls and many times penetrate less than your typical handgun and shotgun rounds.

Also, more importantly, I would take down that map of your house. LOTS AND LOTS of crazy people on the internet.
 
Whoa. seriously. You just posted where you LIVE on the internet. on a GUN forum. And then said that you have a valuable and desirable high capacity weapon for someone to just stop by and pick up while you are at work.

I think before long, the choice might not be so hard cause all your guns will be gone.
 
C-grunt is correct about the .223 ammo

I have shot wild boar on my land with the .223 bullet using my old Colt SP1and it completely came apart in his skull. I have not done penetration tests but have done some blasting at some scrap plywood on my mini range and it does not seem to penetrate as much as my lever action rifle or 12 ga buckshot loads. I do not know how it would fair in gel, but I am sure there is data somewhere on it too. I do know that OO buckshot fired at room distances can go through several layers of wall boards in a home and still have enough kinetic energy to injure someone in another room.
 
Some of you guys make me smile. I am not sure what nut job could find my house because when I say "this is where I live" I am meaning my neighborhood. And no where did I say that I have a valuable high capacity weapon for someone to come and steal.

I do have three large dogs and I work from home so I feel pretty safe in my neighborhood. I may be a bit naive but I am definitely not paranoid. My house is properly secured and protected. Also other peoples big screen televisions and computer equipment are far more valuable than any firearm that I own... did I mention that I am self employed and don't have very much money??

Thanks for the concerns but I am sure everything will be just fine.
 
It was already brought up that the identity of anyone on these forums can be found without much of an issue without needing to look at satellite photos. Why would criminals go after TimM when there are people here that post gun collection photos of dozens or hundreds of guns?

The tin foil is getting would tight today!
 
I wouldnt be worried about burgalry, hell I live in the ghetto. I would be more worried about a stalker.

We arrested one guy this week who was hiding in a ladies closet waiting for her to come home so he could kill her, he admitted this. One time before she thought he was in her house she called the police. No signs of entry and no one found inside the house. Turns out he was able to make a spare key for her place and when she came home with the cops, locked himself in the trunk of her car and waited several hours until she went to bed to get out.

And how did he find her? She was at a hospital one day to pick up her son and he saw her and started stalking her.

There are some seriously crazy people out there. And while its not terribly hard to find out who someone is, I try not to make it too easy.
 
C-grunt - Thanks for the info and picture

The fragmentation and penetration of the ,223 round is incredible. I wanted to get a mini 14 with a wood stock for my farm and keep it loaded up But I shot one many years ago that belonged to a friend but was never really satisfied with its accuracy. That said, for home or farm defense the mini 14 should be good enough with peep sights.
 
I can see that there are quite a few carbine/rifle fans here. But, for those of us who either do not have or cannot afford such a weapon, I guess its back to the tired debate of birdshot vs. buckshot. :scrutiny:
 
why don't you stop debating, go shoot stuff with both, and make up your mind from that?

There is a segment of this board's population that either believe you can take only "can't miss" shots (so over penetration is not a problem) or sending lead into a neighbors house is ok because either a) memorize when they are home, b) their lives are insignificant compared to your own, or c) they will learn a valuble lesson about not wearing body armor.
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Well, thanks for that dramatic mischaracterization. We "own" every round we fire. EVERY. DAMN. ONE. I personally prefer using a carbine or slug because it is easier to control the paths of those single projectiles (and slugs seems to be more reliable stoppers than buckshot, aren't nearly as range dependent, etc). Make your own choices, and live with the consequences. Just don't act as those your attempts to be responsible are better than others'.

J
 
There is a segment of this board's population that either believe you can take only "can't miss" shots (so over penetration is not a problem) or sending lead into a neighbors house is ok because either a) memorize when they are home, b) their lives are insignificant compared to your own, or c) they will learn a valuble lesson about not wearing body armor.
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I thought this worth commenting on.

A. Taking "cant miss" shots- Well, "cant miss" is subjective to say the least. I guess the correct phrase should be "taking shots that are "safe," and most likely to hit." Anyway, Im of the mind that no shot (within the home..for HD) should be attempted until the "target" has been acknowledged, positively identified and is within "practical and/or acceptable" range. Sound good so far?

Now, I understand that the opportunity to "positively identify, aim, fire" is much easier said than done when your bodily system is treating you to an adrenaline dump of a very high magnitude. Still, you cant stop what you cannot hit and you cannot "take back" any shot you make (regardless of its penetration characteristics).

Trying to ensure an assailant is "close" and "attainable through fire" has less to do with the ammo you are using and/or trying to avoid penetration issues and much more to do with effectively defending yourself, your home and your family.

In addition, I do believe this mentality/practice can certainly lessen the chances of "missing" and thus, causing collateral damage/the harming of innocents...regardless of what is fired. Heck, Im sure there are many out there who, once things go "bump" in the night, would just assume it safer to "fire at whatever moves, sounds strange" or whatnot vs. taking the time to allow for a "safer," more effective scenario to unfold before reacting. So, IMHO, this "mindset" is a positive...not a negative.


B. Memorize when they (neighbors/family) are home- Nothing wrong with this and frankly, your use of the word "memorize" may be a bit extreme. I dont think memorizing anything is the core idea here. Rather, its developing an awareness of what is going on around you and being aware of "patterns" should they exist. To NOT pay attention to such details and remain cognizant is, well, a "lazy" mistake which could, one day, prove very unfortunate.

Essentially, there is much, much more to effective HD than what load/caliber one is using.

b) their lives are insignificant compared to your own, or c) they will learn a valuble lesson about not wearing body armor.
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Who thinks this way....really?

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why don't you stop debating, go shoot stuff with both, and make up your mind from that?
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I agree. Shooting is always much more fun (and certainly more productive) than merely arguing about what to shoot!
 
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"Shotgun people, it kills better, its more PC, its cheap to replace when they confiscate it, its just downright THE choice."

Forgive me as this is my first post here but I can't seem to figure out how to quote properly. Anyways, that's a pretty bold statement to make right there. Now I won't even pretend to have as much experience as many of the posters in this thread, but saying something like "it kills better" and "it's just downright THE choice" reeks of hyperbole to me.

I'd just like to add something as well. Many say they can't afford a nice 5.56 carbine, but have any of you considered a Kel-Tec SU16? I'm not affiliated with them in any way and not trying to sell anyone on anything, but I think anyone who can't afford an AR or the like(and even then) should look into them. They take AR mags unlike the Mini 14 and generally have better accuracy out of the box. They're also very reliable and if you have any issues KT offers a great warranty(if there's an issue, they fix it free of charge, period).

Their polymer construction makes them very lightweight. All models offer a folding stock of some kind. The A, B, and CA models can't be fired while folded, while the C can. The A/B/CA stock can also store either 2 10rd KT mags or a 30rd GI mag. Since they don't have a pistol grip(there is a factory accessory that gives a pistol grip with the ability to mount any AR stock though) they shouldn't really be seen as "assault rifles" by any liberals who may be on your potential jury if you're concerned about that. All but the C are commufornia legal too. They also come stock with a handguard that folds into a bipod but honestly it's just a gimmick since it's flimsy when deployed and it's a pain to deploy and even more annoying to return. Makes a comfortable grip when just used as a handguard though, IMO. Accessory rail handguards are an option too. They also make a pistol variant called the PLR16 which is exactly the same gun but with a pistol grip and no stock and a 9in barrel.

But best of all is their price. Everywhere you look they're less than $600, and last I checked, my local gun shop, which is admittedly a lot cheaper than most, has C models in stock for $475. Any decent pump shotgun will be around $300, so ~$500 for a carbine shouldn't be much of a stretch. I apologize for going so far off-topic, especially in my first post on this site, but I just wanted to point out this option for those who want a 5.56 rifle/carbine but don't think they can afford it. Personally, I plan on making one of these my first rifle as soon as funds permit.

If you aren't concerned with AR mags and long range accuracy and don't trust Kel-Tec or plastic guns in general, maybe a used Mini 14 is the way to go. A few months back my brother-in-law bought one from a friend for $150. That's a screaming deal and probably not too common, but I suppose the deals are out there.
 
Go with what you know, feel comfortable with and yes, what you can afford. Then, focus on learning, training and awareness. After all is said and done, ones HD weapon of choice (regardless of the arguments/debates) is about improving the chances of defending life and the lives of loved ones....period.

Its a shame that, sometimes, such a noble/important thing tends to get lost within the mire of "which is better."

Please, lets move on...:banghead:
 
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The shotgun is almost always better for close quarter combat. The rifle round will be more accurate in a hostage situation. But unless you know where that round is going to stop, It's almost always better to use a shotgun for home protection. My 5 cent's worth, adjusted for inflation
 
I live in a semi-urban environment in an RV van, so I chose the Remington 870, an ex- LE trade-in. In these tight quarters, I'm going to have to get a folding stock to make it more compact for storage. I'm leaning toward the Knoxx folding stock. Might keep the police walnut fore-end just 'cause I like the old school look.

BTW, it also made a darned good HD arm when I had a house.
 
Who thinks this way....really?
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I don't know if they really think they think that, and I am not going to read through all the threads to pull out all the quotes (including from a mod or two) that justified the increased risk buckshot/slugs pose to bystanders with justifications that fit into the catergory of bystanders lives are not as important as your own or your own family.

I would not say that is completely wrong, just that personally I don't belive it is completely right.

c) they will learn a valuble lesson about not wearing body armor.
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I said that as a joke, but the rest of it I was not joking, and not attacking. Just because I don't agree with the reasoning of others does not mean I attack them.
 
Anything from #2 birdshot to 000 buck will work just fine at HD distances - typically 15 feet or so.....

don't want over-penetration? shoot smaller buckshot. I mean, really - this thread has gone on WAAAAAY too long

shoot what you feel comfortable using
 
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