shotgun vs rifle for home defense
- Thread starter iyn
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First, first, first...
The first thing you want is a bag of cell phones. Any cell that is charged is supposed to be able to call 911. Put it/911 on speed dial. Hit 911 two or 3 or more times/phones and the emergency services will go nuts and you shouldn't have to shoot. Best outcome. No blood that is yours. Vomit maybe, no blood and if you didn't do the shooting, little legal liability.
Then ... You need to face the fact that "rats" like you would be justified in shooting come in packs. And they use chemicals. Anymore alcohol is just what they wash it down with. You shoot one and he may just get mad. Will he die in 30 days? Probably. Will he die in 30 minutes? Maybe. BUT What will happen to you in those 30 minutes. Of course his friends might get mad too, or they might laugh... In brief you want to be able to shoot repeatedly... shotgun rules here. Light target loads. Short, no choke barrel, COM target...
Take cover. Hide. Use the phones, ALL the phones. Don't get brave. If you have to shoot, shoot them all, then shoot them again... Don't stop until they are on the ground quiveriing and helpless. Then you will have "Hell" coming fro the legal system. They will be upset. When you shoot one of these rats and turn them off, guess what, a lawyer who might have represented him/her/it loses business. They are very unforgiving about that. Might want to have an attorney or 3 in mind too.
Last, how will you sleep. Might wish to review a biography of Audie Murphy. Killed more men legally in the 20th century than any other man. European Theater, WW II. Picked up every combat decoration including the Congressinal Medal. Watch the move "To Hell and Back" but read the book Spent the rest of his life sleeping with a pistol under his pillow. Lost 3 wives who got tired of being pistol whipped in his nightmares... Luck.
The first thing you want is a bag of cell phones. Any cell that is charged is supposed to be able to call 911. Put it/911 on speed dial. Hit 911 two or 3 or more times/phones and the emergency services will go nuts and you shouldn't have to shoot. Best outcome. No blood that is yours. Vomit maybe, no blood and if you didn't do the shooting, little legal liability.
Then ... You need to face the fact that "rats" like you would be justified in shooting come in packs. And they use chemicals. Anymore alcohol is just what they wash it down with. You shoot one and he may just get mad. Will he die in 30 days? Probably. Will he die in 30 minutes? Maybe. BUT What will happen to you in those 30 minutes. Of course his friends might get mad too, or they might laugh... In brief you want to be able to shoot repeatedly... shotgun rules here. Light target loads. Short, no choke barrel, COM target...
Take cover. Hide. Use the phones, ALL the phones. Don't get brave. If you have to shoot, shoot them all, then shoot them again... Don't stop until they are on the ground quiveriing and helpless. Then you will have "Hell" coming fro the legal system. They will be upset. When you shoot one of these rats and turn them off, guess what, a lawyer who might have represented him/her/it loses business. They are very unforgiving about that. Might want to have an attorney or 3 in mind too.
Last, how will you sleep. Might wish to review a biography of Audie Murphy. Killed more men legally in the 20th century than any other man. European Theater, WW II. Picked up every combat decoration including the Congressinal Medal. Watch the move "To Hell and Back" but read the book Spent the rest of his life sleeping with a pistol under his pillow. Lost 3 wives who got tired of being pistol whipped in his nightmares... Luck.
ugaarguy
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I'm not shooting to kill anyone. I'm shooting to incapacitate a threat. If the threat is out his mind on drugs he isn't going to respond to pain. Light target bird shot loads induce pain, but they do not give enough penetration to reliability incapacitate a threat. If I need to shoot quickly and repeatedly to incapacitate multiple threats a 5.56 carbine trounces any shotgun. Low recoil from a round that actually has a high probability of incapacitating a threat (unlike bird shot), low muzzle rise, and superior standard sights will allow even a novice to make fast, accurate shots with a 5.56 carbine. If I need more than the 30 rounds in the mag I'm a button press and mag insertion away from 30 more. Have fun stuffing shells into your mag tube.
Multiple 911 calls from cell phones, which don't the 911 operator your location, do nothing but clog the system. Make a single call from a landline which automatically (through e-911) gives the call center the address. Stay on the line if possible. If a landline isn't an option make a single cell phone call and relay your location as quickly and clearly as possible. Get the police on the way, but be ready to deal with the threat(s) until they get there.
Hopefully I'll be alive to deal with the legal system. If not,I've failed.
Again, I'll be alive to face that new challenge. I'll do everything I can to preserve my life and those of my loved ones until our Creator calls us home.
Choose what works best for you. Use the weapon you have the most experience with. If you don't have much experience, choose whatever you can get the best training on.
hillbillydelux
Member
WOW!! Im not even gonna touch this one.
AcceptableUserName
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lolz @ internet rage.
AKElroy
Member
At 10 feet, which would you rather get shot with? Put the other one next to your bed.
ugaarguy
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LOL. Everyone has actually stayed pretty calm. A thread like this is bound to get biased responses one way or the other, dependant on which of the two long gun forums it's posted in. I'm simply providing alternatives, and challenging preconceived notions. I'm playing devil's advocate if you will, but doing so not not to be a jerk; rather to challenge folks to think. Sometimes those challenges lead to new thought processes, and sometimes they reaffirm existing thought processes. I don't care which they lead to, as long as folks have a better understanding of the situation. For many it will reaffirm their initial choice. For a few it may lead to the realization that another option is better for their situation. Either way, both groups will be equipped with more knowledge, and novices will see both sides of the defensive long gun debate.
Stick this in Rifle Country and you'll probably see me expounding on the benefits of a pump shotgun. I don't need to do that here because everyone else already has. Just as I wouldn't need to address the benefits of a carbine in Rifle Country because many there would do that anyway.
I'm happy having an M4gery and an 870P in the safe. I also know I'm fortunate to have the luxury to choose either. Of course, I put quality firearms higher on my priority list than fancy home entertainment devices. To each his own.
Find a load that patterns well in your shotgun, stray pellets are a non issue.
The picture below is an example of Federal's "Tactical 9 Pellet 00" fired from my 18" shotgun at 10' or so:
I'd be more worried about firing numerous rounds from a handgun that failed to stop the threat, or didn't score a hit because it's not as stable as a shoulder fired weapon.
oneounceload
member
wrong.....birdshot is for birds...use something that will penetrate and do the job.....don't spread BS information that has no support
tactikel
Member
In a non-SHTF home defense situation, you are likely limited to about 30 feet or less for a justified shooting. A 20 ga (600 grains of lead @ 1300 fps) is certainly capable of putting down an assailant. I had an old box of 20ga buck (#4?) but shot them up- for HD I have 3 inch shells with copper plated #2 lead-If you can find 20 ga buck by all means use it. No ricochets, far less penetration than a 55gr FMJ @ 3100 fps, make IMHO a pump shotgun the perfect urban home defense weapon. I have an XD-45 as a backup.
Thanks guys.
I can be reassured that if I cannot afford a rifle, the a pump shotgun will be a good choice for HD. The only thing harder than researching what firearm to buy is convincing my wife I need to buy it. I understand why it's hard to just have one, two or three guns.
I can be reassured that if I cannot afford a rifle, the a pump shotgun will be a good choice for HD. The only thing harder than researching what firearm to buy is convincing my wife I need to buy it. I understand why it's hard to just have one, two or three guns.
Kind of Blued
Member
I like both, and handguns too for HD and SD, so I don't have a real preference. I will say, however:
Wrong.
Wrong.
...and wrong.
When will this stuff ever end?
Wrong.
Wrong.
...and wrong.
When will this stuff ever end?
jojo200517
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Get a 12 gauge pump and an AK for what an ar-15 cost. No need limiting your self to one gun or those little ground hog hunting rounds.
I have shot a few of the low recoil buckshot loads and while I felt less kick, I had the mental feeling that I was pumping out a lot less power than the 15 pellet 3 inch mags.
If I have to shoot someone I want to take them down as quick as possible and put them down to stay there. Dead man tells no lies.
I have shot a few of the low recoil buckshot loads and while I felt less kick, I had the mental feeling that I was pumping out a lot less power than the 15 pellet 3 inch mags.
If I have to shoot someone I want to take them down as quick as possible and put them down to stay there. Dead man tells no lies.
Short answer: either one can work.
There seems to allows be a lot of disinformation concerning the risks of over penetration with a 5.56 rifle. For some reason people want to insist that a rifle is simply more prone to over penetration than a shotgun with HD ammo (often buckshot). This is not necessarily true.
This is a straw man arguement. There are many other and much better choices than FMJ. Better in terms of over penetration issues and better in terms of terminal ballistics. Who is going to use FMJ?
I know of very knowledgable and skilled people some of whom use a shotgun for HD and some an AR. I will repeat that either can work but each have strong points.
Strong points of shotgun as it pertains to HD:
A shotgun can bring a lot more power to bare. When one's objective is to stop a threat immediately the superior power of a shotgun is note worthy.
Servicable shotguns are cheaper although one can spend just as much on a shotgun if they want to.
Strong points of a 5.56 rifle
Lighter and smaller
Lower recoil (faster followup shots)
Both of the above make it easier for smaller statured individuals to use. My friends wife will shoot the AR but HATES his HD 870. My other friends wife keeps their HD mossberg on her side of the bed. So obviously this one comes down to individuals
More readily suppressed. Some people will jump all over me about suggesting a suppressor for HD but I'll take a suppressed rifle over a non suppressed rifle any day for shooting inside my house (and potentially at night). I will mention I live in a red state where the concern is good shoot bad shoot and strong castle doctrine.
Either will work. A others stated the one you shoot the best and are the most familiar with is the one to use. Seeing as you don't have either you may not know which one that is. I would suggest that the one you can afford to feed many practice rounds and obtain professional training with is the best. A trained and practiced owner of either one is much better prepared and much more formidable than an untrained unpracticed owner of the other. This is where a shotgun can shine for the budget minded. For the price of a solid fighting AR, one can buy a shotgun, a light, a bunch of ammo and take a shotgun course.
There seems to allows be a lot of disinformation concerning the risks of over penetration with a 5.56 rifle. For some reason people want to insist that a rifle is simply more prone to over penetration than a shotgun with HD ammo (often buckshot). This is not necessarily true.
This is a straw man arguement. There are many other and much better choices than FMJ. Better in terms of over penetration issues and better in terms of terminal ballistics. Who is going to use FMJ?
I know of very knowledgable and skilled people some of whom use a shotgun for HD and some an AR. I will repeat that either can work but each have strong points.
Strong points of shotgun as it pertains to HD:
A shotgun can bring a lot more power to bare. When one's objective is to stop a threat immediately the superior power of a shotgun is note worthy.
Servicable shotguns are cheaper although one can spend just as much on a shotgun if they want to.
Strong points of a 5.56 rifle
Lighter and smaller
Lower recoil (faster followup shots)
Both of the above make it easier for smaller statured individuals to use. My friends wife will shoot the AR but HATES his HD 870. My other friends wife keeps their HD mossberg on her side of the bed. So obviously this one comes down to individuals
More readily suppressed. Some people will jump all over me about suggesting a suppressor for HD but I'll take a suppressed rifle over a non suppressed rifle any day for shooting inside my house (and potentially at night). I will mention I live in a red state where the concern is good shoot bad shoot and strong castle doctrine.
Either will work. A others stated the one you shoot the best and are the most familiar with is the one to use. Seeing as you don't have either you may not know which one that is. I would suggest that the one you can afford to feed many practice rounds and obtain professional training with is the best. A trained and practiced owner of either one is much better prepared and much more formidable than an untrained unpracticed owner of the other. This is where a shotgun can shine for the budget minded. For the price of a solid fighting AR, one can buy a shotgun, a light, a bunch of ammo and take a shotgun course.
C-grunt
Member
I carry an Ar for my department. During the class they showed us the difference between the duty ,Federal Tactical 55grn HP, and the training FMJ against cantaloupes. Some of the guys were not big gun guys and really didnt know the difference.
The FMJs would put a nice hole through the melon, usually breaking it into several big chunks. The HPs though would completely come apart in the melon, blowing it into little pieces.
The trainers, who are some serious gunnies, stated this round was known around the country as a "fight stopper". It stops aggression NOW!
I personally prefer my Colt light weight AR for HD but cant knock anyone for choosing a shotgun. As long as they dont use birdshot. I now of several occasions where the birdshot has performed miserably.
A good load of buckshot or slug in a shotgun is some serious close range firepower. If you hit what you aim at, you dont have to worry about collateral. Also the spread on a shotgun at in the house ranges is so small any shot that has pellets that miss, probably didnt incapacitate the threat to begin with.
That is of course in a "normal" sized house. I work in an area that pro athletes live and have cleared a couple of those houses when the alarms go off. Some of those hallways could possibly put a bad guy out of the effective range of buckshot. HA HA!
The FMJs would put a nice hole through the melon, usually breaking it into several big chunks. The HPs though would completely come apart in the melon, blowing it into little pieces.
The trainers, who are some serious gunnies, stated this round was known around the country as a "fight stopper". It stops aggression NOW!
I personally prefer my Colt light weight AR for HD but cant knock anyone for choosing a shotgun. As long as they dont use birdshot. I now of several occasions where the birdshot has performed miserably.
A good load of buckshot or slug in a shotgun is some serious close range firepower. If you hit what you aim at, you dont have to worry about collateral. Also the spread on a shotgun at in the house ranges is so small any shot that has pellets that miss, probably didnt incapacitate the threat to begin with.
That is of course in a "normal" sized house. I work in an area that pro athletes live and have cleared a couple of those houses when the alarms go off. Some of those hallways could possibly put a bad guy out of the effective range of buckshot. HA HA!
Dustin4185
Member
This is just my 2 cents worth. I work for a state law enforcement agency and we got into this debate when deciding to go with duty rifle or stick with the 870s. I went out with a few other officers and we built some mock walls with and without insulation. We set up these walls with a shoot-n-c target behind it since it just takes a little to knock off the black. We found that in a HD situation (3-10 yds) that the shotgun with #4 buck overpenetrated the wall and would even penetrate the sheetrock the shoot n c was mounted on. 00 buck completely demolished the "target" on the back side of the wall. We tried it with 55 grain Hornady TAP, it fragmented and barely stuck into the target behind the wall at 10 yds. This can be improved with frangible ammo. Then there is the argument to use #6 or #8 birdshot for HD. I do not recommend this due to the fact that I have seen hunters shot with #7 or 8 at close range on the dove fields and walk away on their own 2 feet, not what I want with a HD gun.
The argument over the .223 not stopping people effectively is fueled by the performance (or lack there of) of the round in the "sandbox". As civilians, we are not held to the same ammunition that the military has to use. I prefer TAP, I use it in my rifle, off-duty weapon, and shotgun. I have killed a several feral hogs where I work with 55 gr. TAP, it will put down a hog or medium sized game animal with correct shot placement (vitals not head). Also, more ammo can be easily carried for a magazine fed rifle, which may or may not matter in you case.
Another consideration is whether or not someone else in the house may have to use the gun for HD purposes. My wife loves shooting both the 870 and the AR, but when it comes to the 870 she is done after 25 rounds or so of reduced recoil loads. She will shoot a case of .223 if I let her. The point here is that your wife, girlfriend, kids, or whatever will be more likely to train with a .223 weapon than a 12 ga. shotgun, plus most ARs with a 6 pos. stock fit everyone better.
You may also want to consider other .223 repeating rifles other than an AR 15. There are 3 I can think of that are considerably cheaper than an AR and all of them take a magazine. Look into the Mini 14, Keltec SU 16 or Remington 7615 (pump .223 that uses AR mags). I know of some officers that carry the Keltec in their trucks and have had no problems whatsoever from them, they are not the most accurate rifle, but they are HD accurate.
Whatever you decide just remember: TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING and that you are responsible for every round that goes down range (9 in the case of 00 buck). Choose the gun that you AND your family are the most comfortable with and TRAIN with it.
The argument over the .223 not stopping people effectively is fueled by the performance (or lack there of) of the round in the "sandbox". As civilians, we are not held to the same ammunition that the military has to use. I prefer TAP, I use it in my rifle, off-duty weapon, and shotgun. I have killed a several feral hogs where I work with 55 gr. TAP, it will put down a hog or medium sized game animal with correct shot placement (vitals not head). Also, more ammo can be easily carried for a magazine fed rifle, which may or may not matter in you case.
Another consideration is whether or not someone else in the house may have to use the gun for HD purposes. My wife loves shooting both the 870 and the AR, but when it comes to the 870 she is done after 25 rounds or so of reduced recoil loads. She will shoot a case of .223 if I let her. The point here is that your wife, girlfriend, kids, or whatever will be more likely to train with a .223 weapon than a 12 ga. shotgun, plus most ARs with a 6 pos. stock fit everyone better.
You may also want to consider other .223 repeating rifles other than an AR 15. There are 3 I can think of that are considerably cheaper than an AR and all of them take a magazine. Look into the Mini 14, Keltec SU 16 or Remington 7615 (pump .223 that uses AR mags). I know of some officers that carry the Keltec in their trucks and have had no problems whatsoever from them, they are not the most accurate rifle, but they are HD accurate.
Whatever you decide just remember: TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING and that you are responsible for every round that goes down range (9 in the case of 00 buck). Choose the gun that you AND your family are the most comfortable with and TRAIN with it.
rbernie
Contributing Member
At the risk of thread veer....
I do not understand this.
So you chose a platform and ammo based solely on what happened to the projectiles that miss the target, rather than evaulating the terminal ballistics of the projectiles that hit?
I do not understand this.
Absolutely true. A HD gun that half the family cannot or will not use is not an effective HD gun.
oneounceload
member
And with today's modern forensics, live ones don't either.....
snooperman
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Shotgun for home defense
Nothing will stop an intruder or bad guy faster than a shotgun . Load it with #4 buckshot in 12 ga or #3 in a 20 ga and it will do the job in the home with less penetration than OO buckshot. Outside the home use OO buckshot. I load mine 12 ga with first 3 shots #4 buck and last 2 shots OO buckshot. If you shoot someone with an assault rifle, the Lawyers will have a good time trying to prosecute you. The shotgun is and has been accepted by our society as a home defense gun for generations.
Nothing will stop an intruder or bad guy faster than a shotgun . Load it with #4 buckshot in 12 ga or #3 in a 20 ga and it will do the job in the home with less penetration than OO buckshot. Outside the home use OO buckshot. I load mine 12 ga with first 3 shots #4 buck and last 2 shots OO buckshot. If you shoot someone with an assault rifle, the Lawyers will have a good time trying to prosecute you. The shotgun is and has been accepted by our society as a home defense gun for generations.
C-grunt
Member
Not trying to thread veer.
Just to help stifle another internet rumor. The 5.56 is working great in the "sandbox". Ask any veteran on here or one in real life. I have heard a lot of brother friends uncles cousin who shot a guy 12 times and didnt stop him, but have yet to actually meet a combat vet who has had problems.
Also many soldiers will claim hits just because they shot at someone. I remember one guy who was claiming a hit at a running bad guy, in an urban setting, at a couple hundred yards. Back on post this guy could hardly qualify many times. Not surprising, we never found this dead bad guy.
The only 2 legitimate complaints of the 223 I have heard from soldiers coming back are that it is not as effective when used at longer ranges, and its inability to shoot through light cover. Neither is a concern in a HD situation.
Bad Penny 03
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- Dec 29, 2003
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****.
Did this thread just happen?
I thought AR15/AK-47
Pistol/Shotgun/Carbine
9x19mm vs .45
and revolver vs. auto had been beat up enough.
gawd we are bored.
[hangs head in shame]
Did this thread just happen?
I thought AR15/AK-47
Pistol/Shotgun/Carbine
9x19mm vs .45
and revolver vs. auto had been beat up enough.
gawd we are bored.
[hangs head in shame]
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