How much more quickly and accurately can YOU shoot 9mm...

[luzyfuerza]

...versus 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 10mm, 380 ACP, etc.?

I have gotten so tired of the caliber wars.

Repeatedly explaining the FBI's reasoning for switching to 9mm has some value for the community, I suppose, but that value is diminishing with repetition.

One key argument in the wars is that the FBI has determined that the 9mm is easier for the average agent to shoot quickly and accurately than 40 S&W or 45 ACP (or 10mm, etc.).

Frankly, the idea that 9mm is easiest for the average FBI agent to shoot doesn't really matter to me. For good old luzyfuerza, the real question is this: "How quickly and accurately can I shoot a 9mm versus a similar gun in 45 ACP?"


So, I grabbed my timer and went to the range.

I set up a simple drill that had several controlled pairs and target transitions: three targets, one at three yards in front of the shooter, another at five yards on the first target's right shoulder, and one at seven yards on the first target's left shoulder. Placement required a little movement to the left and to the right to engage targets two and three. At the beep, draw, and fire two rounds into each target, moving as necessary. Hit zone was a 6" circle at COM.



The guns I used were two full-sized Springfield XD gen 1s, one in 9mm and the second in 45 ACP, plus an XD gen 1 45 Tactical. All were carried in kydex strong side OWB holsters. No concealment garment.

Ammo used was my practice reloads, which tend on the mild side. In 9mm, 115 grain bullets at about 1050 fps. In 45 ACP, 230 grain bullets at about 750 fps.


Results (average time to shoot the drill):

9mm (full sized) 3.32 seconds (SD=0.29) (nine runs)
45 (full sized) 3.49 seconds (SD=0.14) (ten runs)
45 (Tactical) 3.41 seconds (SD=0.27) (13 runs)

and then I repeated the test with the 9mm to see if my skills had improved at all over the course of the testing

9mm (full sized) 3.45 seconds (SD=0.50) (14 runs)

Accuracy: Almost all shots were in the six-inch circles...a couple of fliers per target for each gun.


For me, it doesn't look like I shoot 9mm a lot better (if at all) than I shoot the same gun in 45 ACP.


I need to repeat this test with practice ammo to confirm these results. I also need to shoot the drill with duty ammo. It might also make sense to repeat with .38 special and .357 magnum revolvers. Etc. As I do this, I'll post my results.


So, for the community: Are you like the average FBI agent? Do your targets and your timer confirm that you shoot 9mm faster and more accurately than a 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 10mm, etc.? Or not?

 

[luzyfuerza]

Oh, please, no disparaging my results.

I'm an old, fat, slow grandpa with arthritis, and I know it! You young whipper-snappers who practice all the time can beat my times every day, and twice on Sunday.

Do feel free to brag, however!

 

[cheygriz]

I've been shooting .45s, mostly 1911s for most of my life. I shot bullseye competition for years.

When I started shooting 9MMs, there was no question at all in my mind that the 9mm was much faster and easier to shoot.

I still enjoy range time with my Gold Cup, but I carry my Glock 17 or SIG P226 for "serious social shooting."

 

[BSA1]

...versus 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 10mm, 380 ACP, etc.?

I have gotten so tired of the caliber wars.

So why are you starting another one?

So, for the community: Are you like the average FBI agent? Do your targets and your timer confirm that you shoot 9mm faster and more accurately than a 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 10mm, etc.? Or not?

For this test to be truly valid you need to use the same model of gun only in different calibers such S&W M&P series. Otherwise you cannot discount the egos and trigger pull of a individual gun enhancing your speed and hit probability.

But to answer your question I am faster with the 9mm than the 45 ACP.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

I watched a YouTube video on the M-9 by an former Army Armorer. When the US Army adopted the M-9 raw recruits were able to qualify and shoot expert the first time out at a much higher level. So much so that it was noted and questioned. Since the Colt 1911 is the most accurate handgun ever made and an M-9 is Italian junk they could only conclude that 9mm is easier to shoot than 45.

Each 9mm round @ 115 grains cost half the price of a 230 grain 45 in lead cost alone. So buying to let every agent of the FBI shoot adds up in a lot of saved money on the ranges. They also have many that do not shoot on a regular basis due to their duty assignment. So they are not a culture of shooting sports enthusiasts.

The numbers always seem to show that it take 1 bullet plus a decimal point of a second bullet regardless of caliber to thwart an attacker. So they save money on shoot outs as well since they would be pushing (2) bullets per bad guy anyway. Plus they have access to those Fully Auto Glocks and stick magazines on their calves to be the Ultimate Tactikewl G-man.

 

[jar]

I'm equally slow on all of them. Didn't know the goal was to run outta ammo as fast as I can. Sometimes I even just stop and have a cuppa between shots.

 

[ATLDave]

From having RO'ed a heck of a lot of shooters in USPSA matches, I will say that, between shooters of comparable skill, split times aren't typically too much different for guys shooting 9 minor versus 40 major. The recoil poses some challenges, but, after a certain skill and experience level, they seem to be something that can be overcome to the point of there being no measurable effect.

At the same time, having taken a lot of newer shooters to the range, I have no doubt that folks who do twice-yearly quals and fire under 1k rounds per year have a substantially easier time controlling 9mm.

 

[LiveLife]

The OP prefaced the thread with "quickly AND accurately". People can practice and train to shoot slowly and accurately most calibers. But to shoot quickly and accurately at the same time, IMHO/IME, lighter recoiling 9mm has advantage over 40S&W/45ACP.

OP tested prefaced notion with "action pistol" shooting like USPSA

I set up a simple drill that had several controlled pairs and target transitions: three targets, one at three yards in front of the shooter, another at five yards on the first target's right shoulder, and one at seven yards on the first target's left shoulder. Placement required a little movement to the left and to the right to engage targets two and three.

How much more quickly and accurately can YOU shoot 9mm ... versus 40 S&W, 45 ACP

For this test to be truly valid you need to use the same model of gun only in different calibers ... Otherwise you cannot discount the egos and trigger pull of a individual gun enhancing your speed and hit probability.

But to answer your question I am faster with the 9mm than the 45 ACP.

I shot Glock 17/19/26 for decades and competed in USPSA with 1911/Glock 17. When I switched my match caliber to 40S&W, I bought 2 Glock 22 along with Glock 23/27 with 40-9 conversion barrels for all and shot them for decades.

After over 500,000 rounds shot with various factory and reloaded jacketed/plated/coated lead/lubed lead rounds, especially in same Glock 22/23/27 with 40-9 conversion barrels, for "action pistol" type shooting where speed and accuracy are both required, I can shoot 9mm double taps faster than 40S&W at multiple targets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trying-to-double-tap.840922/#post-10920036

How much more ... accurately can YOU shoot 9mm ... versus 40 S&W, 45 ACP

If you shoot for accuracy without the constraints of time, they are comparable.

9mm 25 yard groups with Glock 22/KKM 40-9 conversion barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-5#post-9655361

40S&W 25 yard groups with Glock 22 and factory barrel (Same pistol, different barrel) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9645513

45ACP 15/25 yard groups with Sig 1911 using MBC 200 gr SWC (12 BHN Bullseye #1 with 4.0 gr Promo loaded to 1.245") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...omo-reloading-range-test.578444/#post-9415802

 

[Texas10mm]

I watched a YouTube video on the M-9 by an former Army Armorer. When the US Army adopted the M-9 raw recruits were able to qualify and shoot expert the first time out at a much higher level. So much so that it was noted and questioned. Since the Colt 1911 is the most accurate handgun ever made and an M-9 is Italian junk they could only conclude that 9mm is easier to shoot than 45.

Each 9mm round @ 115 grains cost half the price of a 230 grain 45 in lead cost alone. So buying to let every agent of the FBI shoot adds up in a lot of saved money on the ranges. They also have many that do not shoot on a regular basis due to their duty assignment. So they are not a culture of shooting sports enthusiasts.

The numbers always seem to show that it take 1 bullet plus a decimal point of a second bullet regardless of caliber to thwart an attacker. So they save money on shoot outs as well since they would be pushing (2) bullets per bad guy anyway. Plus they have access to those Fully Auto Glocks and stick magazines on their calves to be the Ultimate Tactikewl G-man.

Wow, a 45 year old pistol that has miniscule sights compared to a new pistol with better sights.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

For most folks I would imagine if they invested the time they could become about as proficient with 40/45 as 9mm.

 

[OARNGESI]

I went to all 9 or 45 in semi autos 9 is cheap and 45 is subsonic when shooting suppressed that’s my reasoning

 

[Charlie98]

Just my 2 rounds worth... cartridge isn't the entire answer, the pistol itself has some to do with it, too. I can shoot my Kahr CW9 about as fast and accurately as my Kimber 1911 .45, but hand me my brother's PPK/s .380, or a J-frame revolver... well, let's just say the target stands a fair chance at that point.

 

[Armored farmer]

I performed a little informal self test of my own:
9mm compact vs 1911 .45 compact.
The accuracy was similar.
While i didnt actually time my shots, i can say that i shot the 9mm much faster.

 

[Chuck R.]

Paul Harrell dis a pretty decent comparison of 9mm VS .40 using the same platform:



The results were similar to the OPs. But, he's also not what I'd call en inexperienced shooter.

 

[milemaker13]

For this test to be truly valid you need to use the same model of gun only in different calibers such S&W M&P series. Otherwise you cannot discount the egos and trigger pull of a individual gun enhancing your speed and hit

He used 2 XD gen 1 pistols in 9mm and .45.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I haven’t done the statistics rigorously, but just eyeballing it, I would say that the differences in OP’s experimental results are not significant. IOW the variation (standard deviations) is so large that the differences can not be known to be real. So for him no real difference.

 

[Trey Veston]

I try to shoot in an indoor GSSF match every month. I've missed a few this year due to other outdoor activities, but I have been tracking my results since I started competing a couple of years ago.

I started with a stock G29 10mm. People scoffed at my using a 10mm for a timed shoot. But I won my class. Then I got a .40 S&W barrel for it for Unlimited class. Got increasingly higher scores, but still couldn't get the elusive 500 perfect score. I was hooked and everyone told me to buy a G19 or G34 because the 9mm was softer recoiling and more accurate. So I bought one of the Summer FS versions. Beautiful little Glock. Not as accurate as my G29. I handload and I worked up a ton of loads for it before my first match. I had to run hotter loads to get the accuracy I desired (2" or better at 25yds).

I thought I wasn't any faster or more accurate with the G19 than with the G29. That proved true in the matches I used it in. So I sold the G19 for $50 more than I paid for it to a Glock collector and bought a G35.

My best match results for both pistols...

G35:



The G19 with a Storm Lake ported barrel to further reduce recoil:





So, I really didn't find any advantage in shooting 9mm over .40 S&W.

 

[Trey Veston]

And this is one of my last matches with the G29. This target was shot in Stock class. 10mm loads.

 

[CDW4ME]

My average 2nd shot time with 40/45 (Glock 23/21) is .03-.04 slower than with 9mm (Glock 19) using defensive ammo, +P in the 9mm.

There is no such thing as a caliber war.
Expanded 40 & 45 HST is bigger than expanded 9mm HST - not debatable.
If one seeks to make the biggest holes in attacker carry 45 with a "modern" HP
Want more capacity and willing to make slightly smaller holes? Carry 40 S&W
Willing to carry smaller bullets in exchange for more bullets and less recoil? 9mm
Why that ^ is referred to as a "war" makes no sense, its choices.

Willing to carry a marginal caliber with minimal ASAP potential, that's likely hard to shoot quickly & accurately? 380/38 it is.

 

[jar]

Willing to carry a marginal caliber with minimal ASAP potential, that's likely hard to shoot quickly & accurately? 380/38 it is.

I still do not understand why there seems to be some common belief that 380 or 38 or 32 or 22 or 25 or 9mm Mak or any of the other smaller rounds are thought to be hard to shoot quickly or accurately when for many decades they were shot quickly and accurately? For an accurate close in defensive handgun I find my fastest and most accurate ones to be the smaller rounds.

 

[JONWILL]

My best gun for accurate close range rapid fire shooting is my Bersa Concealed Carry in 380

At 20’ I can keep it in a small paper plate

 

[Tallball]

I don't feel much difference between 9, 40, and 45.

Then again, I'm a large person and have been shooting regularly for almost 40 years.

 

[Jim Watson]

I haven't run side by side comparisons, but I shoot a lot of IDPA and some USPSA. Ten-15 years ago, I generally placed better overall in CDP (.45) than ESP (9mm) in spite of the greater recoil and lower magazine capacity. Time has taken a toll and the big bore is no longer fun to shoot. I loaded some Major ammo for a USPSA match and soon decided that I am now a Minor type of guy. A downloaded .45 is fun to shoot and the big holes can score better.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Folks, we're looking for numbers here. Data. From testing.

Compare times and accuracy for 9mm vs 40/10/45/380 (etc) shot on your choice of competition or combat exercise using the same or very similar model guns.

Take this as an invitation to go to the range do your own testing. Of your own gear and abilities.

Anything else is simply opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...

 

[JohnKSa]

For various reasons, it can be difficult to get accurate results of this type with self-testing. Fortunately, there's a large reservoir of information available on the internet that provides just this kind of results.

GSSF outdoor match scores are posted online and GSSF has a category called Heavy Metal. Competitors in that category must shoot a pistol chambered in .45ACP, .45GAP or 10mm. There is also a category called Amateur Civilian and most shooters in that category compete with 9mm pistols although it’s legal to compete with any caliber in that category. Both categories use exactly the same course of fire.

Scores combine time and accuracy, so this provides just the kind of data that is of interest.

This means that we can look at shooters who compete in both categories and see how their scores differ. Of course, it’s important to understand that this will UNDER estimate the performance degradation since it’s not a straight comparison between 9mm and .45/10mm. That’s because Amateur Civilian has no caliber restrictions and therefore a shooter could compete with a 9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, .45GAP, .45ACP or 10mm if he/she wished to. Still, because most shooters compete in Amateur Civilian with 9mm pistols, it should provide some useful data even if it underestimates the factor we’re concerned with.

Awhile back, I pulled up the results from several of the larger matches and compared the scores of all of the shooters who shot an entry in both categories. So if "Frank Smith" shot in both categories, his scores from each category would be compared. If "Ann Jones" shot in only one of the categories, her score would not be included in the comparison.

On average, the scores (time combined with accuracy penalties) from the Heavy Metal category, when compared with scores from the same shooters in Amateur Civilian were about 20% worse.

Also interesting is that shooters in "Master Class" are identified--this allows a comparison of scores from higher level shooters as well, to see if maybe their skill can overcome the additional recoil. Turns out that skill does make a difference. It doesn't eliminate the difference but it does cut the advantage for the smaller calibers to about 10%.

What a surprise, right? Lighter recoil does make a significant difference when time/accuracy comparisons are made. Who would have thought... Well maybe the folks who put caliber and/or power factor restrictions on various pistol competitions to try to level the playing field. And maybe the LE departments who have noted that their officers shoot better with lighter calibers. Maybe competitors like Rob Leatham who states that he shoots better with a 9mm. Ok, maybe it's not really such a big surprise.