How to Achieve Velocities Similar to Underwood 10mm

[Lennyjoe]

180 gr XTP and 800X is my fav 10MM load. That’s why I have 4 extra lbs of that coveted powder.

 

[ballman6711]

I'm definitely not opposed to a WFN bullet. I just hadn't looked at them, because I was thinking I'd need something with expansion. Then discovered the Leigh bullets, which while they don't expand they create a large wound channel. That may no be the case though. Have you shot any deer deer with a wfn bullet to see the results? I may be way over thinking this.

No, I haven't killed one with a wfn, but I have seen the results from one getting shot with a wfn. My father shot a deer with a wfn in a 45-70 rifle at about 80 yards. The deer dropped right there. Exit wound was pretty big.

Not a pistol, but the result was impressive. I have done tests with water jugs, fruit, etc... with pistols, and a lead nose with a wide meplat is pretty impressive. A soft lead bullet will expand quite a bit.

Until your very good or scoped (or both) a mild 357 or 10mm will cleanly kill deer with a good hit as far as you can shoot.

This ^^^ 100%. A well placed shot is key, second is the correct bullet.

chris

 

[BushMaster-15]

9.5 gr Longshot with 155 gr. will get you there . I'd concentrate on ACCURACY prior to worrying about velocity personally . Then bump up loads that prove promising . BOL

 

[TEXASJD]

I shoot a cast 200g over blue dot(blue boom) and it works well on pigs and deer 30yards open sights red dot. I don’t push past archery range myself with a pistol just person preference

 

[crestoncowboy]

I shoot a cast 200g over blue dot(blue boom) and it works well on pigs and deer 30yards open sights red dot. I don’t push past archery range myself with a pistol just person preference

I've also used 200s. Mostly 180s in lead though. And usually with unique.

As far as accuracy vs velocity....ive never thought much about it in a handgun load. You can roll a dice or talk to a magic 8 ball and let it pick what load you use and it will be accurate enough that the typical handgun hunter couldn't tell it from match ammo. Most people IME shoot match handgun ammo just as poorly as they shoot Tula. And that's 20 years of shooting with LE that are trained pretty regularly.

Make sure it functions. Make sure it's under max and go shoot. XTP/hardcast/lehigh/or ranger.....in 10mm on a 200-300lb whitetail at under 100 yards will make no difference nor will 200@ 1000 fps or 1250 fps. Either you hit the vitals and it falls or you missed and it didn't matter how fast or what bullet you missed with.

I have rifles with hours of load development. I used to worry about it in handguns. When powder got scarce a few years back I loaded with new powders.... picked mid range loads and just went with it and they are easily accurate enough in a my Glock/Delta/sig to kill a deer at 100. Any more I even use the powder dump on my progressive rather than weigh individuals and still.....never lost a deer. I tend to limit shots to 75 but if I felt the need id I use it farther.

 

[LiveLife]

Most people IME shoot match handgun ammo just as poorly as they shoot Tula. And that's 20 years of shooting with LE that are trained pretty regularly.

I totally disagree.

My wife's cousins are Ventura PD Sergeant and SD deputy now going on several decades towards retirement. Before retirement, my coworkers' sons were CHP and city police officers and we shot regularly along with their coworkers. Their LE training and qualification focus was quite different than my USPSA "action pistol" match shooting focus of engaging multiple targets fast.

My defensive shooting instructor who was also USPSA RSO taught local PD/SD SWAT teams and while they were invited to USPSA matches, most even the seasoned officers scored poorly compared to average USPSA match shooters. At a larger outdoor range that housed permanent LE/SWAT training facility in a separate range that we used for USPSA and 3-gun matches, seasoned LE and military personnel who ran through our USPSA match stages also did poorly (Or was accurate but very slow) when forced to engage multiple targets fast while utilizing cover and shooting on the move (Our stage designer also setup/shot IDPA).

To address being familiar with "typical" USPSA target setup of stationary 2-3 targets including hostage "no shoot" targets, our stage designer always threw in surprises or unusual targets such as sliding targets, turning/swinging/spinners or pop up targets that needed to be shot through opening similar to window opening. In later years, we even had to engage targets under cover laying on our bellies, shoot one/weak hand only hanging around cover, shoot from very unusual positions such as flat on back, perform required one handed clearing/cycling of slide, etc. etc. and LE/military personnel struggled even more as their training shooting focus was limited to standing and shooting at stationary targets.

For me, ultimate test of "real world" shooting skills is to engage multiple targets fast while on the move using same firearm you would use for defensive shooting (Yes with "real world" trigger instead of smooth as glass break match trigger). That was the challenge my defensive shooting instructor made to me as I used Glock 22 at home but competed with highly modified 1911. Using factory stock Glock 22s put me near the bottom of club ladder but in time, I climbed up towards 80 percentile of limited/open division shooters to my and their surprise.

Most people IME shoot match handgun ammo just as poorly as they shoot Tula

Also I totally disagree.

When I initially started shooting USPSA matches, I compared as many factory ammunition as I could and selected PMC and S&B due to smaller groups they produced over other brands. When other seasoned match shooters suggested I reload to reduce my group size further, my newbie rudimentary match rounds reduced group size by over 40 percent compared to smallest groups with factory ammunition.

Now 30 years later, when I teach new shooters, even my "general purpose" range blasting 9mm ammo loaded with cheapest 115/124 gr bullets and charges of Promo (But loaded with much greater consistency of OAL variance without any bullet setback) produce significantly smaller groups compared to typical factory ammunition that experience quite a bit of bullet setback (And it's not finished OAL consistency rather "chambered" OAL consistency that produce accuracy in my book ).

 

[crestoncowboy]

I totally disagree.

My wife's cousins are Ventura PD Sergeant and SD deputy now going on several decades towards retirement. Before retirement, my coworkers' sons were CHP and city police officers and we shot regularly along with their coworkers. Their LE training and qualification focus was quite different than my USPSA "action pistol" match shooting focus of engaging multiple targets fast.

My defensive shooting instructor who was also USPSA RSO taught local PD/SD SWAT teams and while they were invited to USPSA matches, most even the seasoned officers scored poorly compared to average USPSA match shooters. At a larger outdoor range that housed permanent LE/SWAT training facility in a separate range that we used for USPSA and 3-gun matches, seasoned LE and military personnel who ran through our USPSA match stages also did poorly (Or was accurate but very slow) when forced to engage multiple targets fast while utilizing cover and shooting on the move (Our stage designer also setup/shot IDPA).

To address being familiar with "typical" USPSA target setup of stationary 2-3 targets including hostage "no shoot" targets, our stage designer always threw in surprises or unusual targets such as sliding targets, turning/swinging/spinners or pop up targets that needed to be shot through opening similar to window opening. In later years, we even had to engage targets under cover laying on our bellies, shoot one/weak hand only hanging around cover, shoot from very unusual positions such as flat on back, perform required one handed clearing/cycling of slide, etc. etc. and LE/military personnel struggled even more as their training shooting focus was limited to standing and shooting at stationary targets.

For me, ultimate test of "real world" shooting skills is to engage multiple targets fast while on the move using same firearm you would use for defensive shooting (Yes with "real world" trigger instead of smooth as glass break match trigger). That was the challenge my defensive shooting instructor made to me as I used Glock 22 at home but competed with highly modified 1911. Using factory stock Glock 22s put me near the bottom of club ladder but in time, I climbed up towards 80 percentile of limited/open division shooters to my and their surprise.


Also I totally disagree.

When I initially started shooting USPSA matches, I compared as many factory ammunition as I could and selected PMC and S&B due to smaller groups they produced over other brands. When other seasoned match shooters suggested I reload to reduce my group size further, my newbie rudimentary match rounds reduced group size by over 40 percent compared to smallest groups with factory ammunition.

Now 30 years later, when I teach new shooters, even my "general purpose" range blasting 9mm ammo loaded with cheapest 115/124 gr bullets and charges of Promo (But loaded with much greater consistency of OAL variance without any bullet setback) produce significantly smaller groups compared to typical factory ammunition that experience quite a bit of bullet setback (And it's not finished OAL consistency rather "chambered" OAL consistency that produce accuracy in my book ).

I said typical open sight handgun shooter. Not a uspsa competitor. Id assume anyone competing would be a bit better than "typical". I have match loads for my 460 I shoot to 250 yards. That wasn't the topic though.

The topic is slow and accurate hunting. Not steel challenge or SD. Ive shot steel challenge and ive hunted big game with a 10mm-460xvr for 20 years. The two are exact opposites. "Engaging multiple targets" has very little to do with the topic at hand. Lol

Reducing a group by 40% in a 10mm at a hunting distance (100ish yards) makes absolutely no difference on a deer. The sorriest ammo made will hit the 8 inch kill zone in a sorry pistol at that 75-100. Any farther and your running out of gun with a 10mm. Match ammo may shoot an inch in a good one at 100 but either would have killed the deer if you hit it and neither kill it if you miss.

Anyone new enough to worry about 100-150 FPS that BB claims in their 10mm hunting handgun ammo more than likely needs to shoot more and worry a lot less. Ive killed deer with 6-6.5 grains of unique under a 180 GR lead bullet (1k-ish fps in a 1911) and ive killed them with blue dot running at 1400.... no difference.

Deer are easy to kill with a shot in the kill zone and in my experience very rarely attack in packs. Lol if I'm starving and send out a hunter....I'll take a bullseye shooter over a steel shooter anyday...allday. if im attacked by terrorists or 12x24 dingers ill take the steel guy, preferably with a 9mm instead of a hunting cartridge.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I totally disagree.

My wife's cousins are Ventura PD Sergeant and SD deputy now going on several decades towards retirement. Before retirement, my coworkers' sons were CHP and city police officers and we shot regularly along with their coworkers. Their LE training and qualification focus was quite different than my USPSA "action pistol" match shooting focus of engaging multiple targets fast.

My defensive shooting instructor who was also USPSA RSO taught local PD/SD SWAT teams and while they were invited to USPSA matches, most even the seasoned officers scored poorly compared to average USPSA match shooters. At a larger outdoor range that housed permanent LE/SWAT training facility in a separate range that we used for USPSA and 3-gun matches, seasoned LE and military personnel who ran through our USPSA match stages also did poorly (Or was accurate but very slow) when forced to engage multiple targets fast while utilizing cover and shooting on the move (Our stage designer also setup/shot IDPA).

To address being familiar with "typical" USPSA target setup of stationary 2-3 targets including hostage "no shoot" targets, our stage designer always threw in surprises or unusual targets such as sliding targets, turning/swinging/spinners or pop up targets that needed to be shot through opening similar to window opening. In later years, we even had to engage targets under cover laying on our bellies, shoot one/weak hand only hanging around cover, shoot from very unusual positions such as flat on back, perform required one handed clearing/cycling of slide, etc. etc. and LE/military personnel struggled even more as their training shooting focus was limited to standing and shooting at stationary targets.

For me, ultimate test of "real world" shooting skills is to engage multiple targets fast while on the move using same firearm you would use for defensive shooting (Yes with "real world" trigger instead of smooth as glass break match trigger). That was the challenge my defensive shooting instructor made to me as I used Glock 22 at home but competed with highly modified 1911. Using factory stock Glock 22s put me near the bottom of club ladder but in time, I climbed up towards 80 percentile of limited/open division shooters to my and their surprise.


Also I totally disagree.

When I initially started shooting USPSA matches, I compared as many factory ammunition as I could and selected PMC and S&B due to smaller groups they produced over other brands. When other seasoned match shooters suggested I reload to reduce my group size further, my newbie rudimentary match rounds reduced group size by over 40 percent compared to smallest groups with factory ammunition.

Now 30 years later, when I teach new shooters, even my "general purpose" range blasting 9mm ammo loaded with cheapest 115/124 gr bullets and charges of Promo (But loaded with much greater consistency of OAL variance without any bullet setback) produce significantly smaller groups compared to typical factory ammunition that experience quite a bit of bullet setback (And it's not finished OAL consistency rather "chambered" OAL consistency that produce accuracy in my book ).

Long way of saying, “I’m not typical.”

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I said typical open sight handgun shooter. Not a uspsa competitor. Id assume anyone competing would be a bit better than "typical". I have match loads for my 460 I shoot to 250 yards. That wasn't the topic though.

The topic is slow and accurate hunting. Not steel challenge or SD. Ive shot steel challenge and ive hunted big game with a 10mm-460xvr for 20 years. The two are exact opposites. "Engaging multiple targets" has very little to do with the topic at hand. Lol

Reducing a group by 40% in a 10mm at a hunting distance (100ish yards) makes absolutely no difference on a deer. The sorriest ammo made will hit the 8 inch kill zone in a sorry pistol at that 75-100. Any farther and your running out of gun with a 10mm. Match ammo may shoot an inch in a good one at 100 but either would have killed the deer if you hit it and neither kill it if you miss.

Anyone new enough to worry about 100-150 FPS that BB claims in their 10mm hunting handgun ammo more than likely needs to shoot more and worry a lot less. Ive killed deer with 6-6.5 grains of unique under a 180 GR lead bullet (1k-ish fps in a 1911) and ive killed them with blue dot running at 1400.... no difference.

I tend to stick to feet, not yards, with a revolver. 75’ is a long way in heavy brush. I like a 250gr Keith at 900fps+/- out of a .44Mag or a 180-200gr WFN at around 1K from a .357Mag. I’m also patient and well fed enough to pass up anything less than a near perfect shot.

I think the 10mm sounds like a good platform but it is just the launch pad. The shooter and not getting buck fever is way more important.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I tend to stick to feet, not yards, with a revolver. 75’ is a long way in heavy brush. I like a 250gr Keith at 900fps+/- out of a .44Mag or a 180-200gr WFN at around 1K from a .357Mag. I’m also patient and well fed enough to pass up anything less than a near perfect shot.

I think the 10mm sounds like a good platform but it is just the launch pad. The shooter and not getting buck fever is way more important.

I started with 44. Thought I had to use the super duper Glaser/fusion etc hunting loads. Then went to a max load of 296 over a 240xtp in a Redhawk (right at 2000FPS...and yeah I worked up) Then decided that wasn't enough and got a 454, then a 460. Lol. Then I realized I'm not good enough to kill a deer at 200 yards without a scope and shooting sticks and 10mm/357 is plenty at my 75 or maybe 100. Now if I carry my 44 its far less potent. Usually a Keith over 9 gr unique. Lol. My 44 is also a lot lighter. Usually a 329 PD.

Big NC appalachain whitetail fall the same either way. And even skinning and recovering it just don't make a difference.

If I were hunting bear or boar or "big" big game I would adjust my ammo. But in the mountains where 100 is about the max you could hope to shoot unless it's 800 yards ridge to ridge....and deer are whitetail.... 10mm in any form is just plenty.

I do carry a 44 a lot though. I don't feel the need for my 220 swift on squirrel and no longer feel the need for 500 Smith or 338 lapua on whitetail

 

[crestoncowboy]

I also am in the camp of "if I have to carry a scope on my handgun and in a shoulder harness because its so big....I'll just carry my rifle" nowdays

 

[crestoncowboy]

I’m also patient and well fed enough to pass up anything less than a near perfect shot.

That's a lot of it too. I don't shoot at animals turned wrong or running at 15 MPH either. Almost never did. I did kill a 10 pt buck as he was jumping a fence once with my 2010ish delta elite. Should have never took that shot and felt bad when I did but he was weak when he landed and fell dead in one more hop. Was a good kill zone shot at 25 ish yards but was one of the dumbest shots I took.

Was an xtp I believe but I remember it went all the way through the other side ribcage and stuck in the hide on the exit side.

 

[S.Crockett]

I would think they have a special blend that is then pressure tested, either by them (if they have the equipment) or by someone else. It would be a very poor business decision, from a liability aspect, to make and sell known overpressure rounds, which could be fired in all types of guns. They couldn't possibly know what condition your gun is in, or how strong/weak the action or metal is. Just an educated guess on my part.

Mike McNett @ Double Tap pioneered the use of hybrid powders to elevate the velocity of second generation full-power 10mm ammo. (Norma’s original 10mm loads being the first generation). These hybrid powders in factory pistol ammo yield greater velocity with less pressure than the propellants used in the Norma era. They are not available to handloaders on the retail propellant market as far as I’ve been able to determine.

So, for example, Norma’s standard of 200grns @ 1200fps (nominally 1180fps) was bettered in the early 2000s by DT’s 200grns @ 1250-1275fps, topped with either a Hornady 200grn XTP or FMJ-FP. (Slightly earlier, a different company, Texas Ammo, had offered roughly the same increased performance level across four factory loads - using Hornady XTPs of 165grns, 180grn, and 200grns, with the fourth load being a Hornady 200grn FMJ-FP. Both 200grn loads were spec-ed @ 1250fps).

Once it was realized there was a ready market of 10mm users who wanted to shoot “real” 10mm ammo, and not the watered-down .40-level/FBI-Lite junk, Buffalo Bore and Underwood got into the game too.

Presently you can find any number of commercial ammo-makers who offer one or more full-throttle 10mm loads, to include Federal and Winchester.

 

[Jim Watson]

I found this thread on Glock Talk where someone broke the ammo down and believes it's just 11.3 grains of Power Pistol powder.

Leigh Defense lists 9.0 grains of PP as their max load. Nosler lists 9.9 grains.

They make multiple powders by the same chemistry in the same plant; "burn rate" controlled by formulation, granulation, and deterrents. I wonder if you could tell Power Pistol (BE84) from BE70 or BE88 by looking at it.

Mike McNett @ Double Tap pioneered the use of hybrid powders

What the devil are "hybrid powders"?

 

[S.Crockett]

They make multiple powders by the same chemistry in the same plant; "burn rate" controlled by formulation, granulation, and deterrents. I wonder if you could tell Power Pistol (BE84) from BE70 or BE88 by looking at it.



What the devil are "hybrid powders"?

So apparently basic research wasn’t a big thing taught at your publik skool?

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
This invention provides a propellant with a greater muzzle velocity with a lower peak pressure than the prior art. This new hybrid gun propellant contains an oxidizer rich liquid and an oxidizer deficient single based solid propellant. The pressure versus time curve of the hybrid gun propellant has a reduced pressure peak, but has a large pressure plateau which yields a greater muzzle velocity by providing a greater area under the pressure/time curve.

More here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4402775A/en

 

[LiveLife]

“I’m not typical.”

If you reload, you are not typical.

If you cast your own bullets, you are special.

If you are into muzzle loading even to making your own gun powder, you are down to earth.

 

[n2omike]

As per special powders, this is what I would see down the road...

Current propellants act like a recurve bow. The initial impulse is really strong, then the pressure decreases as the bullet travels as the bullet goes down the barrel.

Compound bows accelerate the arrow to MUCH higher velocities by using varying radius pulleys to maintain that large force on the arrow the entire time it is in contact with the string. If they could accomplish the same thing with propellants, muzzle velocities would go to to the moon!

 

[KYregular]

BE86 for 150s, Power Pistol for 180s. Like Underwood I highly recommend Starline brass if you are going to push them.

 

[BKS]

13.5 of AA9 is giving me 1300 from a 180xtp
11.4 of AA9 is giving me 1150 from a 200gr WFN from Montana Bullet Works.
G40 MOS with 6” KKM barrel.
Plan to hunt with them this weekend.

 

[Jim Watson]

So apparently basic research wasn’t a big thing taught at your publik skool?



More here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4402775A/en

This new hybrid gun propellant contains an oxidizer rich liquid and an oxidizer deficient single based solid propellant.

So you are telling me that he is loading pistol ammo with liquid propellant?

"Hydroxylammonium nitrate (HAN) has previously been used in conjunction with other ingredients in liquid monopropellant guns."

My agency looked at disposal of liquid propellant like this by watering it down into a liquid nitrogen fertilizer. We didn't get the project for engineering and agronomic tests, though.

Hodgdon offers 'Hybrid 100V' rifle powder which they say combines Ball powder chemistry and extruded granulation. Woo woo.

 

[crestoncowboy]

13.5 of AA9 is giving me 1300 from a 180xtp
11.4 of AA9 is giving me 1150 from a 200gr WFN from Montana Bullet Works.
G40 MOS with 6” KKM barrel.
Plan to hunt with them this weekend.

When I started....I did the same. Careful ladder workup. Big booming blue dot worked up to max in my 6 inch KKM (Glock 20 though). Eventually I saw a deer while carrying my plinking 180 GR load in my old blued delta elite. It died just as dead. So nowdays I have been known to hunt with a medium case of unique in a plain old 4 inch gun. Lol.

I worry less than I used to. Whitetail Deer are wimps