How to Defend Oneself with a Knife (or, how to get started finding a knife)

[Bobson]

Been looking at knives since the last "fighting knife" thread. Just recently got thinking, what's the most effective way to employ a knife to stop an attacker, should it come to that?

For instance, there are many popular knives that seem designed around stabbing and puncture wounds, such as the ShivWorks Clinch Pick, Spyderco's Street Beat, P'Kal, and Reverse, and others.

Then there's a very broad range of other knives that seem more geared toward slashing and cutting. Knives in this category include the Ka-Bar TDI series, most every karambit (I realize there's a specific style that goes with the karambit, but still), and Spyderco's ARK and Matriarch, among others.

So there must be two vastly different approaches toward this. Which option is more effective in repelling an attacker, in general?

A few months ago, I started a thread about carrying a firearm in a hospital-type workplace. After having more experience, I'm finding that even if legal and possible, it's not going to be very practical for me. So I'm thinking a flat-ish neck knife (fixed; the folders listed above were just examples) under my scrubs may be a much better option. But do I want a stabber or a slasher?

 

[M-Cameron]

honestly.....i would carry the largest knife you can get away with (larger knife = longer reach = more distance between you and an attacker).

as for knife fighting technique, without getting too technical....there are slashes, which produce long shallow wounds........or there are stabs, which produce deep penetrating wounds.

personally, i would recommend something like an ice pick grip, and just simply attack like you would with a hammer-fist strike.....that is a fairly intuitive strike and doesnt require much training to be effective.

 

[dayhiker]

I am a firm believer in bio-mechanical cutting.

Any joint or muscle group that comes into reach is getting cut.

 

[rcmodel]

What he said!!

I probably prefer the old 3 3/4" Spyderco Rescue for such close range grappling.
(Not sure they make them anymore though?)



It's blunt point pretty much precludes you stabbing or cutting yourself while cutting someone's arm tendons clear off while he has you in a choke-hold.

The darn things (Spiderco serrated edge) are like a little pocket chain-saw!!

http://www.bladehq.com/cat--Spyderco-Rescue--772

rc

 

[IlikeSA]

The bowie style knife has been around a long time and has had many proponents. From slashes to stab to back cut, it can do it all in a way no other knife can. I recommend watching Bill Bagwell on youtube and reading his book. Once you understand the beauty of the back cut you will see why the bowie is such an ingenious design.

 

[rcmodel]

Ice pick grip??

I'm not trained in knife fighting, but.

That will get you killed!!

The only time it is really usable without exposing almost every Important artery in your body is when you are in a clench, and stabbing the other guy in the back.

Or sneak up behind a sentry and stick the knife down under his helmet and plunge it into his heart & lungs.
( But, you need at least a 7" -8" very sharp & pointy knife for that.)

Use the knife blade length in a normal saber grip for all the standoff distance you can get out of it.
Thrusts, slashes, parries, etc, are all easily done from that grip.

And it keeps your arms in positions where they can defend and protect your groin, Cartoid, Brachial, Femoral, and Aorta arterial system with both arms.

You can't do any of that with your arm drawn back in an ice pick grip!!

rc

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

Sheepsfoot serrated with nasty edge directed at trouble....my thoughts exactly! The bad fella's hands/forearm will be the closest things near you and that's the easiest way to disable. With this you have one cutting style. With a point you have two, the cut and stab. Might be far too tense of a situation to decide which you'll do with each movement you make.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Can someone post an illustration showing the difference between an ice pick and saber grip?

 

[glistam]

A lot of the rationale with what makes a good personal defensive knife in a civilian setting is theoretical. I mean lets face it: no matter how reasonable these knife design criteria are, very few people (fewer still on this forum) have put blade to flesh when defending life and limb. It's not possible to replicate the effects of pain, blood loss, organ puncture or severed tendons in a training setting. This is not a criticism of any post so far, merely an exercise in critical thinking.

To try and solve this, I've been compiling a database of cases involving Defensive Knife Use (DKU). It's in the very early stages, but so far there seems to be very little consistency in the type of knife. The primary matter of concern is accessibility; people who can reach their knife and grip it correctly with the greatest ease and speed are the ones that seem to succeed. Fixed beats folder, even autos. The other pattern seems to be bigger is better, within reason. Larger knives seem to show up consistently in cases where the assailant is scared away without being cut. One final thing I noticed is that some cases the defender is prosecuted for assault or murder, but this seems to happen when the encounter has a mutual dispute quality to it, where the defender had multiple other reasonable options besides pulling a knife.

 

[Branko_D]

The only situation where I can envisage defending myself with a knife, is in the hypothetical case of a break-in where I don't have time to get the gun out of the safe. In this case, a large, big, sharp kitchen knife. The situation seems incredibly unlikely, however. Positive thing is, since a large kitchen knife is designed to be actually used on a Daily basis, it has ergonomics which make it suitable for cutting and the like. It looks like a lot more ergonomical weapon then most "fighting knives" which seem designed for scary looks rather than effective use.

Outside of the house?

The situations where it's necessary and useful to draw a knife on the street seem vanishingly unlikely. A knife is necessarily a very short range weapon. If someone would draw a gun you would have to charge him. Do you know how someone charging another man with a knife looks to the outside observer? Hint, it doesn't look like self-defense.

If I simply had to carry a weapon for self-defense and a gun wasn't a realistic option, and an electroshocker thingy wasn't available, I'd probably opt for a 8+ inch fixed knife without frills. The best odds of not having trouble in court is not to have to cut anyone with it in the first place. A suitably large chopper dissuades idiots. Every other outcome is going to be risky, painful and expensive.

 

[JShirley]

Except for extremely well placed stabs in just a couple of places (I've stabbed an alive but downed deer under the ear~ exactly as quick as a shot to the same place, instantaneous), the quickest way to stop an aggressor is to use a very large blade that can stop an attack with a single chop. As a fighter, I'm small, aggressive, and determined, but this is why I like big knives.

The ARK was designed around a particular mission, with certain restraints. It was intended to allow a US service member to escape a certain type of attack, possibly in a confined space. It had to be small and lightweight, and intuitive in use.

Attacking the arm or hand of someone grabbing you should be about as intuitive as it comes, though somehow we as a culture have been conditioned to believe if using knives against people we should stab them. A small slashing blade like the ARK can remove someone's ability to attack you, and perhaps their desire to do so.

There is no single most effective fighting style. The Matriarch was designed to allow users with little or no knife training to inflict major injuries without learning any special fighting style. I personally dislike reverse grips because they limit your range, and I dislike certain blade shapes because they reduce your options.

In general, a defender can inflict major trauma through slashing with even a small blade, but effective stabs usually require a large knife. That idea can probably help inform your search. I'm going to suggest that you first decide the size knife you're willing or able to carry, and go from there.

Personally, I'm proud to say that the ARK may be the best neck knife I know, but if you are wearing clothes, neck carry is probably not your best option. On the other hand, if you wear loose, lightweight clothing like hospital smocks, an ARK might be a good choice.

I wouldn't necessarily trust all of the advice from The Martialist, but there are illustrations of various grips in this article. The ARK was always intended to be used in a saber grip, and getting a good, high grip on the ARK when drawing will let you keep the same grip on it as you use it, exactly as you want when drawing your defensive sidearm. (It does also allow for very sneaky use in a pinch grip, but that's an advanced application.)

If it helps at all, if I had to defend myself with a folding knife, my first choice would be the Spyderco Manix 2 XL. This is, however, a very large, heavy knife, and would be difficult to carry on smock pants without them being dragged down. A large and strong but lightweight folder like the Endura might be a good choice. (Colored versions here.)


Edit: if you want to experiment with something Endura-like, the Byrd Cara Cara 2 is a smoking deal at less than $25. (The Amazon blurb is incorrect. Spyderco lists the weight as 3.4 oz.) Aside from (to me) looking less attractive, the only big disadvantage of the economy Byrd over the Spyderco is that the Cara Cara will probably be stiffer when you first get it.

If you do decide you want to get an ARK, the only place I know that currently has them is Bento Box, which sells them at Spyderco's MAP.

John

 

[ColdDeadHand]

Your best option is to carry a sword.
Sadly, that's basically not allowed anywhere.
If you want to damage vital organs, you need about 5" at a minimum. Even if you do reach vital organs, stabbing someone in the heart or lung is not your most efficient means of ending a fight.
As many stated above, separating muscle from tendon, or tendon from joint is your quickest way to end it. Take out a hamstring and run = End of fight.

Edit: yes, a Bowie knife is probably your best bet for a knife, but that's not legal in most places. Since a 4" folder is legal "basically" everywhere, that makes your disabling attacks more realistic in a real-world scenario.
Honestly, I'd take a good Kukri over a Bowie any day, but that's probably gonna look weird on my belt when I go to the mall.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

One final thing I noticed is that some cases the defender is prosecuted for assault or murder, but this seems to happen when the encounter has a mutual dispute quality to it, where the defender had multiple other reasonable options besides pulling a knife.

I think Michael Janich relates a tale where a boss tried to murder his employee with a SEAL Pup. Both men rolled around on the floor and the employee managed to get the knife and kill his boss. When police arrived, they found both men with cuts, including cuts to the hand that could be slips or defensive cuts; but the boss had been stabbed 61 times. They took that as a sign of rage and charged the employee with murder.

As an attorney, it occurred to me that we spend a lot of time emphasizing that firearms aren't death rays and that an upper CNS hit is basically the only way to immediately stop an attacker. Even an upper thoracic hit to the heart or major blood bearing organs might still leave an attacker with 12-13 seconds of action. It occurs to me that probably the main way any knife small enough to be carried defensively kills is through exsanguination. I imagine it is very easy for a person using a knife defensively to think "I'll keep stabbing until the threat goes away" but by the time they have recognized the threat is over, they've stabbed the guy dozens of times and now it is a difficult task for the investigator to evaluate who was the aggressor.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah, the least number of effective moves I could see me performing with a knife the size of the ARK would be three. That's about a second.

Bart, there's a major problem with your analysis that I think many people have, when thinking about knives (though, oddly enough, not about firearms): we shoot to stop, right? Whether the assailant lives or dies is not the goal, going home in one piece is the goal.

Why, then, must we necessarily concentrate on killing someone with a knife? That makes no sense. Our goal is to safely disengage.

If your attacker can no longer use his hands, he'll most likely stop attacking you. And if he doesn't stop attacking you, he certainly can't attack you effectively.

And it should be obvious to anyone looking at the evidence later that minimum force was used.

That's why we have to think logically about these issues now. Unlike a firearm, a defender with a knife does have a good to excellent chance of being able to strike an attacker's specific limb, and it doesn't take a medical degree to learn enough to know good places to cut.

John

 

[glistam]

That's an interesting point Bartholomew Roberts, though I would have to see some kind of documentation on that particular case of Janich's. At this point it's third- or fourth-hand information. For all we know, the defendant really did murder his boss in cold blood and we're only hearing his claim. In my aforementioned database, I have several cases of the defender fatally stabbing the assailant, and none had that many wounds, except in the single knife-on-knife case I found (both parties had uncountable stab wounds all over their bodies, and the defender just barely survived).

 

[Bobson]

If you do decide you want to get an ARK, the only place I know that currently has them is Bento Box, which sells them at Spyderco's MAP.

The ARK is also available from KnifeCenter, unless you think we shouldn't buy it from there. EDIT - OOPS. Availability area says delayed by manufacturer. My bad.

For me personally, in terms of this thread, I'd be looking for a knife to wear specifically at work, and I'd be wearing scrubs 100% of the time. I greatly prefer a fixed blade for this niche. In terms of size, I think I'd like to limit it to 7" max for OAL. I was actually considering the Spyderco ARK, the ESEE Izula, and the Ka-Bar/ESEE BK24, primarily. These knives range from just under 5" OAL (for the ARK - with a cutting edge just over 2") to 7" OAL (for the BK24, with a cutting edge just over 3"). Izula is in the middle for both OAL and cutting edge length.

Obviously this would have nothing to do with hoping to repel an active shooter. I'm studying nursing, and it seems like a good majority of attacks in hospitals are directed at nurses (for multiple reasons we don't need to get into here), and those attacks begin at arm's length or closer proximity. The knife would be for getting out of that sort of situation.

 

[Coyote3855]

Can someone post an illustration showing the difference between an ice pick and saber grip?

No pictures, but as I understand it the ice pick grip has the blade pointed down from your hand, the saber grip the blade points up.

 

[Bobson]

Can someone post an illustration showing the difference between an ice pick and saber grip?

No pictures, but as I understand it the ice pick grip has the blade pointed down from your hand, the saber grip the blade points up.

Pretty sure this is correct. Sabre Grip is basically holding the knife with blade up, thumb on the jimping along the spine, wrist extended. The thumb should be parallel to the blade itself. Doug Marcaida says this is most ideal for deep cuts and slashes, as the position of the thumb on the spine's jimping allows for more pressure on the blade. I don't recall if he referred to it as the sabre grip.

Icepick grip (aka reverse grip) is just holding the knife so the blade is downward. Stabbing comes to mind when you see it, but I guess you could also do that awkward looking haymaker-esque slash, or a pulling slash, depending which way the blade is facing. Not sure which direction would be "correct." Doesn't seem like an ideal way to hold a knife, to me. Can't picture stabbing effectively, while on your feet, without giving up your ability to defend your torso.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Ahhhh thanks guys. Wasn't sure what you meant by ice pick at first.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Obviously this would have nothing to do with hoping to repel an active shooter. I'm studying nursing, and it seems like a good majority of attacks in hospitals are directed at nurses (for multiple reasons we don't need to get into here), and those attacks begin at arm's length or closer proximity. The knife would be for getting out of that sort of situation.

Bobson, just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that you feel that a knife is the best solution for the scenario you described? I'm always interested in learning the thought processes behind someone's defense edc.

Great thread, BTW...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I wasn't thinking of trying to kill the attacker so much as an untrained defender trying to use a typical sized knife in self-defense. It seems to me like it would be very easy to go stabby/pokey and inflict multiple wounds before the attacker even noticed.

I've actually been a bystander at two stabbings and a common theme in both is that the person stabbed didn't even realize they had been stabbed for maybe 10-15 seconds. I was only able to talk with one of the guys but he thought the guy had just landed a really weak punch on him until someone else pointed out he was bleeding seriously. Then he started to hurt.

It makes me think slashing may be more effective for self-defense since the atracker is going to be more aware of the damage and the damage is less likely to be lethal.

 

[readyeddy]

The Columbia River Folts Minimalist is only $22 and is comfortable in the hand. Some dislike the cheap steel but it is sharp out of the box.

http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-Rive...d=1455744600&sr=8-1&keywords=folts+minimalist

 

[OC-Trainer]

the person stabbed didn't even realize they had been stabbed for maybe 10-15 seconds.

I beat the "get training" drum with the best of them. Oddly enough, I probably would fear an untrained maniac with a knife/edged weapon more so than any other type of threat on the street. The account that you relayed is the very reason why. Prison yard rush? Absolute nightmare to deal with.

 

[Bobson]

Bobson, just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason that you feel that a knife is the best solution for the scenario you described? I'm always interested in learning the thought processes behind someone's defense edc.

Reasonable question. So basically, it's primarily due to the ease of concealability of a knife. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I can select a full-tang blade with no handle (such as those I pitched in the post you quoted), and wear it as a neck knife, and there's virtually no printing. Also reasonably quick to get to. I had previously given consideration to a gun (legality and practicality are other issues that were discussed elsewhere), but have since decided that it's just not something I want to move forward with at this time. Other than a knife or gun, my options are (AFAIK) all less-than-lethal tools like OC, a stun gun, etc. Problems with carrying those are the same that present themselves with physically carrying and concealing a gun. With OC, the problems actually increase, as I'm sure you're aware.

I was a correctional officer in an Arizona state prison in the past, and had OC training during that academy. IME, OC isn't enough to consistently stop an attacker. I was able to continue completing a predetermined series of tasks, along a specific route, after being sprayed with it. Inmates at the prison who were fighting didn't stop consistently enough after being sprayed to give me much confidence in using it for self defense. Yes it's painful, but not debilitating. Then there's the problem with contaminating an entire area, possibly getting it in your own eyes/nose/mouth, etc.

In the scenario I described, employing a neck knife would be quick and easy, and providing I can cut the right parts, would hopefully stop the attack quickly.

Other than using random objects around the room, I don't see a better option than having a knife, but I'm happy to concede I may be overlooking another tool.

The Columbia River Folts Minimalist is only $22 and is comfortable in the hand.

I gave a lot of serious consideration to the CRKT Folts SPEW. I've handled one, I love the blade design, and the knife is ridiculously comfortable in the hand. (I also LOVE the look of the knife lol).

Ultimately though, I decided I might be better off with something a bit more beefy. I don't need steel that can function as an EDC, cutting things daily and needing to hold an edge through use, but I do need something that's not going to break. With a knife like that, basically designed for stabbing, if the tip breaks, I may as well be carrying a butter knife. I wanna like it, but the blade just seems so fragile. Also, there's the whole cutting versus stabbing thing, which lead me to this thread. It now seems like cutting is a better approach, which is leading me to a different style. And truthfully I still keep coming back to it, and have to force myself to look at other options. I do appreciate the suggestion, though.

 

[lemaymiami]

I've been on the scene of a fair number of blade injuries when I was a cop(most non-fatal - but a few of them killed the victim outright with only a single stab...and in one case the victim was found to be a suicide with more than ten self inflicted knife wounds....). Almost to a man every witness I ever spoke with that actually saw the assault or fight never saw the knife involved...
The usual description was that one side was "hitting" the other side (a recent street video of a knife assault during a street confrontation never showed a hint of a knife involved - I'm speaking of the young serviceman who helped stop the Paris train attack -but was severely injured a month or so later while trying to intervene in a bar altercation that ended up outside in the street....).

Like JShirley if I ever employ my knife in a defensive mode it will strictly be to allow me to disengage and retreat to safety... Done with a bit of skill an opponent will never see what bit him and may not even sense the wounds until the action is over... I was taught that any opponent with a blade is terribly dangerous at close quarters -skilled or not. I will do my best to avoid close in encounters always --a blade in my hand will be an absolutely last ditch proposition. As my Dad used to say.. the trouble with knives is that you have to get entirely too close....

As a general proposition I don't believe I ever saw a decent quality knife involved in a knife incident.. Usually it was the cheapest junk imaginable -including a flimsy steak knife that one nice lady killed another with in a single stab wound from the side. I'd have taken odds that it wasn't big enough to reach the heart (particularly from the side) but I was wrong.... By the way the only difference in the smell of fresh kill on the street between a knifing and a gunshot is the lack of any gunpowder smell in the knifing... The smell of large quantities of fresh blood on the ground is one you'll never forget...