How to Defend Oneself with a Knife (or, how to get started finding a knife)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Reasonable question. So basically, it's primarily due to the ease of concealability of a knife. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I can select a full-tang blade with no handle (such as those I pitched in the post you quoted), and wear it as a neck knife, and there's virtually no printing. Also reasonably quick to get to. I had previously given consideration to a gun (legality and practicality are other issues that were discussed elsewhere), but have since decided that it's just not something I want to move forward with at this time. Other than a knife or gun, my options are (AFAIK) all less-than-lethal tools like OC, a stun gun, etc. Problems with carrying those are the same that present themselves with physically carrying and concealing a gun. With OC, the problems actually increase, as I'm sure you're aware.

I was a correctional officer in an Arizona state prison in the past, and had OC training during that academy. IME, OC isn't enough to consistently stop an attacker. I was able to continue completing a predetermined series of tasks, along a specific route, after being sprayed with it. Inmates at the prison who were fighting didn't stop consistently enough after being sprayed to give me much confidence in using it for self defense. Yes it's painful, but not debilitating. Then there's the problem with contaminating an entire area, possibly getting it in your own eyes/nose/mouth, etc.

In the scenario I described, employing a neck knife would be quick and easy, and providing I can cut the right parts, would hopefully stop the attack quickly.

Other than using random objects around the room, I don't see a better option than having a knife, but I'm happy to concede I may be overlooking another tool.
Click to expand...


I agree that OC spray probably wouldn't be your best option in the scenarios you are concerned with. I don't know though- it's just hard for my to wrap my head around any scenario where someone outside of military/leo purposely carries a knife with the sole intent on using it the way you described. I'm probably in the minority, and I certainly wouldn't dissuade you from going with a knife as your first choice (and it is totally your prerogative, of course), but I just can't envision a scenario that would have a great ending if you where forced to use it in the matter you described. I don't want to side track your thread, so I'll just say this.

If it were me, taking into account everything you described - and also looking at the big picture (blood-borne viruses, legal ramifications, etc) I would probably opt for a tactical light.

Good luck with whatever it is you decide.
 
OC-Trainer said:
If it were me, taking into account everything you described - and also looking at the big picture (blood-borne viruses, legal ramifications, etc) I would probably opt for a tactical light.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'll bite. How would it be used? Fist-pack? Blunt striking object?
 
It is absolutely worth pointing out that the knife is an instrument of deadly force. Just because it doesn't go 'bang' doesn't mean carrying a knife as a weapon is any less serious then carrying a gun, or that it can be used when a gun couldn't be used.

The situations where you must use a knife to defend yourself outside of the home are vanishingly unlikely, and unless you made a genuine attempt at retreating it's going to be real hard for the outside observer to support your self-defense claim.

I'd really go with something non-lethal as the first option before resorting to a knife. Sometimes I have my 4" Okapi folder (they're nice little things, ratchet lock, cheap and pretty) with me, but that's more of a tool for various things, then something I'd see as an effective weapon outside of some extreme situation.
 
Last edited:
Branko_D said:
It is absolutely worth pointing out that the knife is an instrument of deadly force. Just because it doesn't go 'bang' doesn't mean carrying a knife as a weapon is any less serious then carrying a gun, or that it can be used when a gun couldn't be used.

The situations where you must use a knife to defend yourself outside of the home are vanishingly unlikely, and unless you made a genuine attempt at retreating it's going to be real hard for the outside observer to support your self-defense claim.
Click to expand...
I understand all that, thank you. But yes, I agree, it's worth pointing out.
 
Bobson said:
Okay, I'll bite. How would it be used? Fist-pack? Blunt striking object?
Click to expand...


glistam, B. Roberts, and Branko all make incredibly important points.

Regarding the tac-light: I'm not 100% sure exactly what type of attack(s) you are concerned with, perhaps I overlooked it. Nevertheless, the 'flash and smash' tactics that can be employed using this type of light can be extremely valuable when a firearm or OC isn't and option.

For me, my methodology for handling a potential attack (when avoidance and running isn't an option, and I'm without CCW), is to completely (but temporarily) remove the vision of an adversary...then run. If I can't run, I'm going to try and break something. Smash the patella, fracture the ulna/radius, etc. The robust, ultra-bright tac-lite excels at both. Someone grabs your scrubs, blast 800 lumens in their face. Still didn't let go? Then smash that fool with a hammer fist with the light extending below the closed fist. And that is just for CQC. Down range, the light can still be used to help disrupt and disorient. Can't say the same for a knife.

Also, draw on your A&P studies. Having that knowledge goes a long way in. Short of a direct CNS hit, expect continued aggression.

I can go on and on, but you get the idea. Personally, I would not use a knife for defense unless it was the most dire of circumstances and totally as a last ditch option. Ultimately though, only you can decide what's best for you.
 
Somehow, I just can't see you keeping your nursing job, or your credentials very long after whipping out a neck knife under your scrubs in a hospital, and stabbing or cutting anyone with it.

Regardless of what they were doing!!

How about you just carry around a LARGE syringe in your pocket, full of industrial strength animal tranquilizer!!!
Or air.

You might get away with the empty syringe full of air in your pocket excuse.

rc
 
For some reason, some seem to believe a healthcare worked would be exempted from employing the same UOF justifications afforded to anyone else. That's just not the case. If Bill is attacked and is facing the risk of death or serious bodily harm, it doesn't matter whether he's at work treating patients, at the store getting groceries, or at home taking a shower. The same level of force is justified in response to the attack, regardless of where the attack takes place. If you disagree, feel free to PM me and point out where, in the law, you find evidence that I'm wrong. Or start a thread in legal on the topic.

OC-Trainer, I sincerely appreciate your reply. Definitely something I'll be giving serious consideration. Certainly, it is easy to imagine there might be many times when some level of force might be justified, yet deadly force would not be. OTOH, even if deadly force might be justified, that level of response may not be necessary.
 
Last edited:
This has been at the back of mind for a bit now. Bobson, are certain you having a neck knife is permitted at your facility, or would be acceptable if your supervisor knew? I should mention I too work in a hospital, as does my father-in-law (a veteran ER nurse for 20 years). We categorically are forbidden from carrying guns, knives, OC or anything else that is commonly recognizable as a "weapon" apart from very small folding knives. We'd be fired on the spot, and in my case I could even face criminal charges because it's fed. Given that, I carry a Zebra 701 and a 2 AA flashlight, though the times I've had to use force against a patient it's been with just empty hands.

Now I'm not necessarily slamming the door on a knife in self-defense. I wrote this post a few years ago and the replies all gave very good insight. Some of the cases I've added to my database also involve small knives used, though so far they have been women using them against men who were attempting a sexual assault, and one where a deranged lunatic randomly attacked two people in public. It seems if a knife is used, it should send one of two messages "Get away from me" and "Get off me" when faced with a deadly threat. But that leaves a lot of holes, which can be filled by other strategies.
 
Bobson, are certain you having a neck knife is permitted at your facility, or would be acceptable if your supervisor knew?
Click to expand...
I work at a small-ish town hospital, but yes, it is permitted where I work currently, and many other employees do carry knives at work. That said, I don't know where I'll work after graduating, and though I am anticipating a move somewhere, I'm not yet certain where that will be.
 
Still think you would be less at risk of losing your health care license most places without stabbing or cutting someone to doll rags with a hidden neck knife in a hospital!!!

Isn't 'Do No Harm' part of the medical oath deal for nurses too??

Have you considered a Kubotan, and learning how to use it??

Have you considered using a small pocket pen-light, which is would imagine every nurse needs to carry anyway as a Kubotan??

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HDxEEDNYxyI

I can highly recommend both the Streamlight Stylus Pro, or the Pelican 1920 lights carried in a shirt pocket.

http://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-66118-Stylus-Flashlight-Holster/dp/B0015UC17E

http://www.amazon.com/Pelican-1920-LED-Flashlight-Black/dp/B005OLYVS2



If you learn how to use one as a Kubotan, you can put the Incredible Hulk on his knees crying for mercy with one in about 2 seconds.

And with your medical training, I would think you could much better employ one then a untrained person like myself.

rc
 
Last edited:
Isn't 'Do No Harm' part of the medical oath deal for nurses too?
Click to expand...
I don't believe it is, actually. But yes, of course the principle is there. But this is definitely taking that out of context. It's about not making a patient worse than he was when you met him, as a result of your medical interventions. Not about taking a vow of pacifism.

I hadn't considered a kubotan; thank you for the suggestion. And yes we are required to carry a light, but shining it in the patient's eyes is part of the routine assessment. A high lumen tac-light won't fill that role. It will need to be supplementary to my standard kit.
 
Last edited:
A high lumen tac-light won't fill that role.
Click to expand...
You might be surprised.

The two I mentioned are easily controlled by clasping the front end in your fist, and letting as much light out as you need.

From a soft glow, to a pin-point of bright light, to a room full of light held normally.

I use mine every night putting my Alzheimer's wife to bed, and checking on her from time to time.

Just grip it with your fist, and relax or tighten your grip for more or less light on the bed.

IMO: They are really not a TAC-Light.
They are just the best dang shirt pocket pen-light you ever seen in your life!!

And machined, anodized aluminum, bullet proof!

You really need to buy one or the other for $20 bucks and try it!!

BTW: Again, I can't see any lawyer or hospital admin blinking twice over a nurse using the only thing they had available to defend themselves against an attack.

They were the ones requiring you to carry it in the first place!

Not so much, cutting somebody up with a neck knife hidden under your scrubs!!

rc
 
Last edited:
Just keep in mind a TAC pen-light doesn't come with Kubotan instructions.

You still need enough training or anatomical knowledge to employ such a small, apparently harmless object effectively when the organic fertilizer hits the rotating wind distrubrator.

rc
 
RC said : "But, you need at least a 7" -8" very sharp & pointy knife for that."

that's the ticket and I agree and not just for sneaking up behind sentries. :)
 
It is absolutely worth pointing out that the knife is an instrument of deadly force. Just because it doesn't go 'bang' doesn't mean carrying a knife as a weapon is any less serious then carrying a gun, or that it can be used when a gun couldn't be used.

The situations where you must use a knife to defend yourself outside of the home are vanishingly unlikely, and unless you made a genuine attempt at retreating it's going to be real hard for the outside observer to support your self-defense claim.

I'd really go with something non-lethal as the first option before resorting to a knife.
Click to expand...

Okay, let's address this.

1. Yes, using any knife will be considered deadly force unless (potentially) it's used with a pommel strike, which is unlikely with a very small knife.

2. Why wouldn't anyone make a real effort to retreat before employing a weapon (unless, for instance, protecting a patient who couldn't retreat)? Why would you even believe such a suggestion is needed?

3. Well- to be blunt- duh. No sane person, especially one who works in the medical field, wants to be covered with the blood of another person. The alternatives may just be worse.

The ARK may be mine and Sam's creation, but it illustrates a good point. In the sheath, it weights a whole 2 oz. 2 oz. It's hard to find a truly effective defensive tool that weighs as little and is as unobtrusive, and when I was thinking of ways to keep my brothers and sisters in uniform safe when they couldn't have their weapons with them, I couldn't come up with any tool of similar size and weight that I thought would be as effective.

Now, here's a message to the forum, since several of you are on the razor edge of trolling the OP. Knock it off. You REALLY need to have "do no harm"* spelled out for you? You REALLY have nothing better to do than snipe at someone who just wants to keep himself safe? Do you believe that someone in the medical field has less inherent legal ability to protect him or herself from grievous injury than others? You really think it's better to be injured or killed than potentially face losing your job? What logical disconnect is going on, or are you just bored?

If you just have constructive suggestions, please make them, but several of you seem to be more interested in other agendas, and I don't really understand that. Consider carefully.

*"The patient's well being is the primary consideration." Why would you automatically assume the threat is a patient? Also, do you even context, bro? Seriously.
 
Bobson,

I always felt like I was running around in my PJs when I worked at a VA hospital while in college.

I carried on of the old Blue disposable plastic pen lights the nurses and docs used clipped to my neck opening for use as a kuboton. Beat giving a stern look all to heck anyway.

This is the non firearm section but I am going to mention "Thunderwear" anyhow. This is a carry "pouch that is worn low over the hips and over the groin. They are extremely concealable. Faster than most draws from a pocket I have seen. My introduction of them came from a trim young lady that had a Walther PP so concealed in tight jeans. I later knew a guy that carried a small auto in one that carried every day in a place guns were frowned on and never caused an eyebrow raise.

A male nurse I knew used a J frame in one of the elastic band suppoered holsters with the pistol up near the armpit. He never changed in changing room.

Used to know an NCO that carried a small throwing knife in a sheath hung over his spine. his sheath was supported much as one might support a cape. Imagine a loop of flat webbing over the head under the arms and over the head. The knife hung from a thing sheath below the shoulder blades. He drew by reaching over his head and down the inside of his shirt. Although I thought it silly he actually threw the knife on drawing quite frequently. One would not have to of course and it was difficult to argue about whether throwing made sense with a decorated Combat Infantryman vet, whether he had actually ever used the technique in a fight or not. He was assured by the mirror every morning that his survival to that point made him and expert on all things deadly.

BTW I personally like the icepick grip with the edge out as a defensive measure. The edge is then away from you and any block or parry you do with the knife hand is likely to result in a cut. One can slash rather well from that position and at the end of a slash be set up for a stab. Problem is that most folks using the grip keep thinking "Over hand stab" sort of like the man with only a hammer for a tool. With a fixed blade knife one can use the butt end or pommel of the knife as a tool as well and if the target tries to parry or block that punch, guess what?

One needs to think out side the box before one gets boxed in.

-kBob
 
I have been a healthcare risk manager for over 30 years. That means I am in charge of patient safety, liability issues, malpractice and other liability claims, insurance and all other issues related to managing risk, improving outcomes and decreasing liability.

Every single healthcare facility in which I have worked either has an explicit policy forbidding weapons carry by employees at the facility, or it is otherwise grounds for termination. Exceptions are generally limited to security personnel. I have often written or edited the policy and procedure on this.

If an employee were to use a weapon on facility grounds, I would expect immediate termination, possible reporting to the disciplinary board if they were a licensed provider, and they would be on their own for any civil or criminal liability. They would not be covered by the hospital's insurance insofar as this is not within your scope of employment.

So something to ponder in your decision-making process.
 
I carried on of the old Blue disposable plastic pen lights the nurses and docs used clipped to my neck opening for use as a kuboton
Click to expand...

Excellent idea.
 
If an employee were to use a weapon on facility grounds, I would expect immediate termination, possible reporting to the disciplinary board if they were a licensed provider, and they would be on their own for any civil or criminal liability. They would not be covered by the hospital's insurance insofar as this is not within your scope of employment.
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. http://bearingarms.com/psychiatrist-will-fired-shooting-murderer-gun-free-hospital/

Also, second the pen light kubotan. Or alternative, a metal one like a streamlight stylus pro or a 5.11 TMT.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

JShirley
  • Locked
Defense with a Blade
Replies
20
Views
975
Guyon
G
S
  • Locked
How's your Knife....
Replies
21
Views
1K
Jeff White
J
M
  • Locked
Knife Control?
Replies
4
Views
339
Jeff White
J
C
  • Locked
How much defensive blade do you need?
Replies
11
Views
953
hso
hso
G
  • Locked
US Government wants your knifes!
Replies
1
Views
500
Jeff White
J
Back
Top