How to get killed with your own gun.

[Old Dog]

I was hoping there might be some trick I could use.

Well, there's always the ol' shin rake when someone comes up from behind you, if you're wearing hard-soled shoes or boots, get your strong side hand down hard on top of his, raking the side of your sole or heel down the shin can create instant pain and maybe gain you a split-second to either transition to another move or egress. Egress being the option that often ends badly in the event your adversary decides to use your gun.

Counter-joint techniques are simple, yet can be employed effectively by smaller persons against larger and stronger opponents. If you can grab a finger in your hand, a finger-lock or simply bending it back against the joint as quickly and hard as you can might work. If your opponent does get your firearm out of the holster and his/her finger migrates into the trigger guard, as a last resort, and if you have both hands available, grasping the barrel with your far hand, pushing out, while pulling the hand in toward you with your near hand, has broken fingers and caused the grabber to let go.

Weapons retention is not unduly complex, but it should be routinely practiced (with blue guns) and your first move in response to either a front grab, rear or side grab, should be practiced so that it's instinctual when you feel a hand come close to your sidearm. As Jeff notes, situational awareness is the foundation of weapons retention.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There are no "tricks"...some techniques, MAYBE, but once it becomes physical, it's physical and it's a fight for your life. Best thing is if you can't retain your gun while carrying openly, don't carry open.

Edit to add: I didn't even see Jeff's reply. Glad I didn't make a fool of myself this time and say something contrary.

Edit to add more: Don't play fair...go for sensitive areas like...testicles.

I don't open carry, but upthread people posted retention is also relevant for concealed carry.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Well, there's always the ol' shin rake when someone comes up from behind you, if you're wearing hard-soled shoes or boots, get your strong side hand down hard on top of his, raking the side of your sole or heel down the shin can create instant pain and maybe gain you a split-second to either transition to another move or egress. Egress being the option that often ends badly in the event your adversary decides to use your gun.

Counter-joint techniques are simple, yet can be employed effectively by smaller persons against larger and stronger opponents. If you can grab a finger in your hand, a finger-lock or simply bending it back against the joint as quickly and hard as you can might work. If your opponent does get your firearm out of the holster and his/her finger migrates into the trigger guard, as a last resort, and if you have both hands available, grasping the barrel with your far hand, pushing out, while pulling the hand in toward you with your near hand, has broken fingers and caused the grabber to let go.

Weapons retention is not unduly complex, but it should be routinely practiced (with blue guns) and your first move in response to either a front grab, rear or side grab, should be practiced so that it's instinctual when you feel a hand come close to your sidearm. As Jeff notes, situational awareness is the foundation of weapons retention.

Thanks.

 

[JohnKSa]

However, there still remains a big difference between intentional open carry, inadvertent printing or sloppy concealment.

If one is not dedicated to concealment, they need to take the same precautions as a person who is intentionally open carrying. Regardless of intent, the outcome is the same and therefore the precautions should be the same as well.

 

[Old Dog]

If one is not dedicated to concealment, they need to take the same precautions as a person who is intentionally open carrying. Regardless of intent, the outcome is the same and therefore the precautions should be the same as well.

I consider myself a realist in this regard. There are some folks who qualify for legal concealed carry, and do so, but just don't know any better. It seems some here are holding the lowest common denominator to our educated standards.

 

[JDeere]

Open carrying or not he made a mistake that gave the perp an opportunity which is obvious. In this day and time we have to be very aware of our surroundings. In regards to open cary there are a lot of folks that do just to prove a point and do not want to pay the fees the state charges or take the class. They have made that point on different forums.

 

[jmorris]

In my case the disparity in strength between me and the prospective gun-grabber would likely be huge, I was hoping there might be some trick I could use.

Well, not a perfect world.

The trick to equalizing is to remain armed. A buck ten person can be a formidable opponent to someone more than twice the size but you have to retain it and not look like the softest target everywhere you go. That’s no trick though, just paying attention to things going on around you, sets you apart from the sheeple.

 

[theotherwaldo]

The best way to get killed by your own gun is to let others know that you are armed.

Don't do that.

Ever - unless you are ready to shoot.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Fighting over your holstered gun first ties up your dominant-side hand/arm.

This is one reason for 1) carrying other tools (a BUG, pepper spray) 2) where they are readily accessible by the non-dominant-side hand.

Sworn open-carriers learn this early.

But the non-sworn should think about these lessons, too.

 

[luzyfuerza]

If you are defeated and the gun is taken, you need a plan for what to do. Maybe that plan is to try to get away and call 911. Maybe it's to access a backup gun. But it shouldn't be to chase down an armed person while you are unarmed.

Absolutely agree. The victim in this case would still be alive if he had run AWAY from the gun thief, instead of after him.

Its wise to recognize that, whether carried open or concealed, anyone's gun can be snatched.

 

[GEM]

Well, there's always the ol' shin rake when someone comes up from behind you

Many folks think the retention battle becomes a wrasslin' match. BS - if a gang guy or anyone come up behind you, let's start with multiple knife strikes into your kidneys. Let's start with a hard object to your head.

Or a hail of Lorcin based 25 ACP in exchange for your CZ Shadow or Staccato.

Lots of the grappling approaches were developed for police when they had to put hands on to effect an arrest. That's different from someone stalking you for the gun. Of course, the idiots with a gun in sausage pouch flopping on their belt may not need much planning, a snatch would work.

Try this all in FOF, BTW.

 

[Old Dog]

Many folks think the retention battle becomes a wrasslin' match. BS

Not always BS. Of course, my experience as an open-carrier was earned wearing a uniform and badge, and I did have my share of wrasslin' matches. including a few where gun grabbing (intentional or not) happened. Oh, and I have quite a few years of FOF training in weapons retention and defensive tactics. And I have seen a few videos of citizen victims of attempted gun grabs engaged in a retention battle (which they typically lost).

My point was only that, if a grab is attempted, there may be options to counter. That is all. Of course one has to recognize immediately what is occurring.

Most gun grabs I've seen (video, though I was acquainted with reports of two or three others locally) involving private citizens were crimes of opportunity, short-fused in nature, where the assailant spotted the gun and quickly moved in. I have no doubt that folks can be "stalked" for the gun, but I have not seen a lot of accounts of this occurring.

It's been my pet peeve for years that a lot of folks that acquire concealed carry licenses, and do carry regularly, still are sloppy carriers using sub-par gear and engaging in stupid practices. While I cannot support mandatory training requirements to obtain a state issued license, I think it's irresponsible to never even try to obtain a modicum of training that should absolutely include empty hands techniques and weapons retention.

 

[GEM]

I was commenting on folks who think that the retention fight will always start with some H2H, no weapons grappling that is easy to detect or perhaps only one on one. For the civilian just plopping along in 7-11, might be different if you are targeted.

Sure, one should know how to handle the close in struggle. However, there is world of difference between a start with a grab and a start with knife. My only point.

The training issue is complex. The idea of mandatory training is making folks in NYS nuts as a two day class is mandated. It's actually not a bad intro curriculum but seen as an impediment to folks getting permits. Previously it was a just a two hour class. I note that in gun friendly TX when the CHL program started it was a day with a harder shooting qual than the NYS one now.

Unfortunately, we know that over 90% of folks getting permits don't take on more training. With constitutional carry, the percent of carriers, permitted or legal without one with training will drop. I had little luck convincing some of my friends to train or compete. To them, training was shooting a box at the square range twice a year or at a rock at the 'ranch'.

I've seem estimates that the number of competitive shooters in the USA is in order of 30K. Now times are changing and more folks seem to be changing esp. in populations out of the old time gun folk demographics.

I'm getting a little too old for the H2H nowadays but I do shoot a fair amount monthly in matches and have a slew of training under my belt.

 

[Styx]

What difference will a retention holster make when thieves are sucker punching, choking out from behind, or robbing open carriers at gun point?

I recall the minority of members who were anti-open carry being told they were anti-gun, and no better than the anties a decade or so ago. The old internet folklore that the majority of online gun forum members use to adhere to was that:

1. Criminals would be more likely prey on unarmed citizens vs going through the trouble of attacking a legal armed gun owner. That is, the sight of a legally openly armed citizen would put the fear of God into criminals.
2. Gun owners need to start open carrying so that common citizens would become more use to seeing guns, and as a result, they'd become desensitized to firearms.

Now it seems that reality and facts started settling in which are that openly carried guns generally scared people, it started resulting in bad national press as well as business putting up bunbuster signs, people became more antigun, and open carry was a magnet for criminals instead of a deterrent.

That's why I don’t give much stock in all the forum folklores and conjured up "what if" scenarios that aren't fact based. It's nice to see most, but nor all, gun owners have come to their senses.

 

[DeepSouth]

The old internet folklore that the majority of online gun forum members use to adhere to was that:

1. Criminals would be more likely prey on unarmed citizens vs going through the trouble of attacking a legal armed gun owner. That is, the sight of a legally openly armed citizen would put the fear of God into criminals.
2. Gun owners need to start open carrying so that common citizens would become more use to seeing guns, and as a result, they'd become desensitized to firearms.

I don’t think that was ever the majority. I do believe the minority was louder, mainly because it was being fought in the courts a good bit. I certainly saw those arguments and frequently, I probably defended them as possible on occasion. However I don’t think it was the majority and it still is possible. Though to your point the anecdotal evidence I see coming in seems to indicate the negatives outweigh the possible positives.

 

[old lady new shooter]

What difference will a retention holster make when thieves are sucker punching, choking out from behind, or robbing open carriers at gun point?

I recall the minority of members who were anti-open carry being told they were anti-gun, and no better than the anties a decade or so ago. The old internet folklore that the majority of online gun forum members use to adhere to was that:

1. Criminals would be more likely prey on unarmed citizens vs going through the trouble of attacking a legal armed gun owner. That is, the sight of a legally openly armed citizen would put the fear of God into criminals.
2. Gun owners need to start open carrying so that common citizens would become more use to seeing guns, and as a result, they'd become desensitized to firearms.

Now it seems that reality and facts started settling in which are that openly carried guns generally scared people, it started resulting in bad national press as well as business putting up bunbuster signs, people became more antigun, and open carry was a magnet for criminals instead of a deterrent.

That's why I don’t give much stock in all the forum folklores and conjured up "what if" scenarios that aren't fact based. It's nice to see most, but nor all, gun owners have come to their senses.

I think the reaction to open carry depends somewhat on the location. For example in a ranching location where downtown consists of maybe 6 stores, open carry might even be the norm. In the Big City, completely different story. Here in AZ open carry is completely legal and there is a long tradition of being gun-friendly, but even in smaller cities like mine, it's rare.

 

[JeffG]

Can't steal what you can't see.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Didn't read the whole thread.

Not a fan of OC although I've done it couple times. 99.9% of the time I'm CC.

As far as the Serpa holsters, the couple of times I have OC'd it was with a Serpa. They're actually a great LII holster if operated correctly.

Here's a primitive video I made working with the Serpa...



ETA- YouTube deleted it.

 

[Howland937]

I am not in favor of banning open carry

I'm not either, but I'm not in favor of doing so myself. I'm grateful that it's legal here though, but only because I can't be charged if I have a wardrobe malfunction and my gun becomes visible suddenly.

The victim met an unfortunate demise although it was totally predictable. Whether he was carrying concealed, open, or even if he'd had it in his hand...the instant it left his possession he became unarmed. An unarmed person chasing an armed person is a recipe for disaster. One can only speculate on the mindset that led to that decision.

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's a video of an unsuccessful gun grab. Again, it started with the gun being exposed. This time it was an off-duty cop breaking up a verbal altercation. One person remained behind after the others dispersed, and when the off-duty cop turned to leave, he went for her gun. She reacted immediately and vigorously...

This video starts after the others have dispersed and shows the attempted grab. You can find other videos showing the lead in. She exposes her gun when she shows her badge and identifies herself as an off-duty cop--that's not in this video but can be seen in some of the others.

Sign in is required since youtube considers the video to be graphic.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I'm not either, but I'm not in favor of doing so myself. I'm grateful that it's legal here though, but only because I can't be charged if I have a wardrobe malfunction and my gun becomes visible suddenly.

The victim met an unfortunate demise although it was totally predictable. Whether he was carrying concealed, open, or even if he'd had it in his hand...the instant it left his possession he became unarmed. An unarmed person chasing an armed person is a recipe for disaster. One can only speculate on the mindset that led to that decision.

Seems to me mindset wasn't involved, he wasn't thinking. Very difficult to actually think in such a moment. So very good that we are discussing this case here to imprint on us not to chase the thief in the event our firearm is taken.

 

[IlikeSA]

Not an OC fan except in the woods, as in the urban scene there are just too many people and too close quarters. There's also too many "tough" guys.

Many people, good and bad, have way too much confidence in their hand to hand skills. Skill maintenance takes constant work. People just say "I'd do this if it were really that bad" without really drilling the skill to a: get proficient and b: see if it really works. It takes training and practice, and if you train with highly skilled people in realistic scenarios, you'll realize how vulnerable you really are, armed or not. I OC for a living, but only OC in the woods off work. I train BJJ and get crushed multiple times a week, it keeps me reminded that there's always a tougher, faster, or more skilled guy (or girl) just around the corner. I don't need to get in a physical altercation by keeping a gun displayed on my hip when I don't need to do so. As someone on a forum said, if you don't have good hand to hand skills, you're just a walking holster.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Here's a video of an unsuccessful gun grab. Again, it started with the gun being exposed. This time it was an off-duty cop breaking up a verbal altercation. One person remained behind after the others dispersed, and when the off-duty cop turned to leave, he went for her gun. She reacted immediately and vigorously...

This video starts after the others have dispersed and shows the attempted grab. You can find other videos showing the lead in. She exposes her gun when she shows her badge and identifies herself as an off-duty cop--that's not in this video but can be seen in some of the others.

Sign in is required since youtube considers the video to be graphic.

Colion Noir posted this also and listed the lessons he said people can learn from it:

 

[shafter]

Retention is critical because many fights begin as physical altercations before going deadly when someone pulls a gun or knife or tries to take yours. As others have mentioned, trying to secure your weapon by placing your hand over it is crucial but that's not the end of the story. A bigger and stronger opponent is going to win that fight if all you do is fight over control of the gun. It's best to have a plan for what to do with your off hand whether that's striking or reaching for a second weapon. I carry a fixed blade opposite my firearm. Carrying a blade is the single most effective way to counter a gun grab.

 

[Simple Shooter]

I taught gun retention and takeaway techniques as part of the range program as an LEO instructor. Some of the older guys saw no point in it and were resistant to the training. I showed them video of prison inmates in an exercise yard practicing techniques to disarm LEO's and most changed their minds on the subject. The video also lead to me changing the way I secured arrestees and the way I trained others to do so.

It doesn't matter how big or bad you are. If I want your open carry gun, I'm going to get it. I learned how from the best: prison inmates.