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Hydrostatic damage

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Yeah.... the handgun "debate" wore me out long ago. Twice someone in my home town tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the chest with a .44 magnum. The first guy shot himself TWICE with it - and still drove to the hospital (only about 3/4 mile). The other guy shot himself, wasn't found for at least 30 minutes, and was out of the hospital in some short amount of time. Then there was a 300-pounder shot in the stomach by his girlfriend - one shot with a .25 auto - and was dead before the ambulance could arrive from 6 blocks away.

I just don't understand the energy transmission - partly because it seems like there are multiple means of it getting done. Fill a balloon only 3/4 full with water and shoot it and it bursts with water spraying (as opposed to just trickling away) everywhere. That would seem to explain massive tissue damage away from the primary wound channel.
But throw an AR-15 into a pond about a foot away from a wood chip floating on the surface and the chip will rise and fall but remain in the same spot it was before the ripple(s) passed under or through or whatever they do to it. That would seem to be counter to the idea of damage from a transient force.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
I had a friend of mine here in Pa. Was driving down a dirt road in doe season. Someone shot thru his drivers side door and the bullet went thru both his knees. he told me he never felt any pain in his knees, Just tremendous pain in his chest and he thought he was having a heart attack.they did catch the guy, but my buddy 15 years later is still messed up. It was a 30 caliber bullet. He had 2 others in the truck with him. His son in the middle and brother on passengers side.They had a fannel shirt rolled up between him and his son. the bullet stopped there, causing a huge bruise in his sons left leg.
 
Ouch!

Fill up a milk jug or plastic coke bottle with water. Shoot it with either a .22-250 and a light, 45 grain varmint bullet OR a shotgun slug. Better yet, film it in slow motion. Energy is energy, big and slow or small and fast. The plastic will generally shatter with a big splash as it is contained in the jug. Sometimes it'll shoot out the top like a geyser. But, the pressure has to go somewhere.

Hmm, would seem suicide would work better if applied to the head, eh? ROFL What was he worried about, might hurt and give him a headache? Didn't have hearing protection? :rolleyes:
 
The Good Doctor.

Hey again;
I have read the good doctors studies. He does make sence. He is saying the same thing just useing a different term. Pressure wave. (Shock wave)
Means the same thing.

The correct terminoligy is not that big of a deal. We all know what the point is trying to be made.
Shooting a Milk jug full of water will show the effects of this subject. Faster the bullet , bigger the splash. To some degree pistol bullets at slower speeds still have the same effect. Just not as big of a splash.

We tested this idea in water jugs. A .300 win mag w/180 bullet and compared to a .223. (6) water jugs were set in line. At 30 yards both rounds penetrated 5 jugs. The splash from the .300 was very impresive. The splash from the .223 was less but still got things pretty wet. We then set out 8 jugs and fired a 480 grain bullet from a .50 cal Muzzleloader. At 1550 FPS.
All 8 jugs were cleared and the splash out did all.
Maybe not a very scientific way of doing it but it proved a few things to us.
(1) High velocity bullets make waves !!!!!
(2) Slower but heavier bullets do too !!!
Shock effect ? YES.....
Pistol bullets did not fair so well. We did find that most anything at around 1200 fps would surely create a shock effect in the heavier bullets.
There are some hang guns out there that will make a big splash.
But as a rule the rifle rounds are gonna dominate this end of things.

So Pressure wave or shock wave ? The good doctor may not have been up on Roys research. So he calls it pressure wave.
Jim Carmichel also used the term Hydro " " shock.......
 
An anonymous poster with the handle "Odd Job" Wrote:

Dr Courtney is a layman, and he produces this work for the layman, who might be more receptive to his theories. He is not a medical doctor, and has not treated any human gunshot cases, or been in an allied medical role in the handling of such cases. There are those of us who have, and the vast majority of us are highly critical of Dr Courtney's claims and his research methods.

We have made some efforts to make our work understandable to the layman, but we've had an awful lot published in scientific venues for you to suggest that our work has been rejected by the scientific community. On the contrary, the acceptance of our work is growing in the scientific community (as witnessed by our growing list of papers in scientific journals). The criticism of which you speak is confined to internet discussion forums. If there are as many nay-sayers as you suggest and they possess sound scientific reasoning, why are there currently no negative comments published in well-established scientific venues?

Several important papers were published in 2007, including

Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities

Authors: Amy Courtney a; Michael Courtney b
Affiliations: a Department of Physics, United States Military Academy, West Point, NY, USA
b Ballistics Testing Group, West Point, NY, USA

DOI: 10.1080/02699050701481571
Published in: Brain Injury, Volume 21, Issue 7 June 2007 , pages 657 - 662
Subjects: Neuroscience; Rehabilitation;
A copy of a preprint is available at:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0808/0808.1443.pdf

In 2008, we had a number of publications, many of which have relevance with ballistic pressure waves:

Ballistics Testing Group 2008 Publications

A Thoracic Mechanism of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Due to Blast Pressure Waves
Published as: Medical Hypotheses, Volume 72, Issue 1 (2009) , p 76 – 83. doi:10.1016/j.mehy.2008.08.015
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4757.pdf

ABSTRACT
The mechanisms by which blast pressure waves cause mild to moderate traumatic brain injury (mTBI) are an open question. Possibilities include acceleration of the head, direct passage of the blast wave via the cranium, and propagation of the blast wave to the brain via a thoracic mechanism. The hypothesis that the blast pressure wave reaches the brain via a thoracic mechanism is considered in light of ballistic and blast pressure wave research. Ballistic pressure waves, caused by penetrating ballistic projectiles or ballistic impacts to body armor, can only reach the brain via an internal mechanism and have been shown to cause cerebral effects. Similar effects have been documented when a blast pressure wave has been applied to the whole body or focused on the thorax in animal models. While vagotomy reduces apnea and bradycardia due to ballistic or blast pressure waves, it does not eliminate neural damage in the brain, suggesting that the pressure wave directly affects the brain cells via a thoracic mechanism. An experiment is proposed which isolates the thoracic mechanism from cranial mechanisms of mTBI due to blast wave exposure. Results have implications for evaluating risk of mTBI due to blast exposure and for developing effective protection.


Comments on “Ballistics: a primer for the surgeon”
Published as: Injury, 2008 Aug; 39(8): p 964-5. DOI: 10.1016/j.injury.2008.03.020
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4930.pdf

Abstract:
In response to a published assertion to the contrary, this paper briefly reviews many studies that document remote wounding effects of ballistic pressure waves including experiments in pigs and dogs that find brain injury resulting from animal models shot in the thigh and case studies in humans that document both remote brain and spinal cord injuries ascribed to ballistic pressure waves.

Apparent measurement errors in “Development of biomechanical response corridors of the thorax to blunt ballistic impacts”
Published as: Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 41, Issue 2, 2008, Page 486
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4755.pdf

Abstract: “Development of biomechanical response corridors of the thorax to blunt ballistic impacts” (Bir, C., Viano, D., King, A., 2004, Journal of Biomechanics 37, 73-79.) contains apparent measurement errors. Areas under several force vs. time (Fig. 2) and force vs. deflection curves (Fig.4) differ significantly from the momentum and kinetic energy changes, respectively.


Misleading reference to unpublished wound ballistics data regarding distant injuries
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4927.pdf

Abstract: An article (J Trauma 29:10-18, 1989) cites unpublished wound ballistics data to support the authors’ view that distant injuries are a myth in wound ballistics. The actual data, published in 1990, contains a number of detailed examples of distant injuries. (Bellamy RF, Zajtchuk R. The physics and biophysics of wound ballistics. In: Zajtchuk R, ed. Textbook of Military Medicine, Part I: Warfare, Weaponry, and the Casualty, Vol. 5, Conventional Warfare: Ballistic, Blast, and Burn Injuries. Washington, DC: Office of the Surgeon General, Department of the Army, United States of America; 1990: 107-162)

Comments Regarding “On the Nature of Science”
Published as: Physics in Canada, Vol. 64, No. 3 (2008), p7-8.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4932.pdf

Abstract: An attempt to redefine science in the 21st century (BK Jennings, On the Nature of Science, Physics in Canada, 63(7) 2007) has abandoned traditional notions of natural law and objective reality, blurred the distinctions between natural science and natural history, elevated Occam’s razor from an epistemological preference to a scientific principle, and elevated peer-review and experimental care as equals with repeatable experiment as arbiters of scientific validity. Our comments review the long-established axioms of the scientific method, remind readers of the distinctions between science and history, disprove the generality of Occam’s razor by counter example, and highlight the risks of accepting additional scientific arbiters as equal to repeatable experiment.

Acoustic methods for measuring bullet velocity
Published as: Applied Acoustics 69 (2008) 925–928, doi:10.1016/j.apacoust.2007.05.004
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4752.pdf

Abstract: This article describes two acoustic methods to measure bullet velocity with an accuracy of 1% or better. In one method, a microphone is placed within 0.1 m of the gun muzzle and a bullet is fired at a steel target 45 m away. The bullet’s flight time is the recorded time between the muzzle blast and sound of hitting the target minus the time for the sound to return from the target to the microphone. In the other method, the microphone is placed equidistant from both the gun muzzle and the steel target 91 m away. The time of flight is the recorded time between the muzzle blast and the sound of the bullet hitting the target. In both cases, the average bullet velocity is simply the flight distance divided by the flight time.
Key words: bullet velocity

A method for testing bullets at reduced velocity
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4934.pdf

Abstract: Reconstruction of shooting events occasionally requires testing of bullets at velocities significantly below the typical muzzle velocity of cartridge arms. Trajectory, drag, and terminal performance depend strongly on velocity, and realistic results require accurately reconstructing the velocity. A method is presented for testing bullets at reduced velocities by loading the bullet into a sabot and firing from a muzzleloader with a suitably reduced powder charge. Powder charges can be safely reduced to any desirable level when shooting saboted bullets from a muzzleloader; in contrast, cartridge arms can only be safely operated within a narrow window of powder charges/muzzle velocities. This technique is applicable to a wide range of both pistol and rifle bullets at velocities from 700 ft/s to 2000 ft/s.
 
make an impact

I am with the good doctor on this. I use different rifles. the most damaging deer round i have ever used is a .243 with 80 gr soft points at 3400 fps. This smashes the animal to pieces and makes a huge bruise.

i picture it like hitting a full bath with a cricket bat, that water has to go somewhere. if you hit an animal very fast with a bullet the fluid has to go somewhere and it goes around the body and "switches" the brain off.

i think the bullet has to hit very fast.

the 150 gr .30-06 bullet at about 2800 kills just aswell but does far less damage.

interlock
 
There are pressure waves with everything, all bullets cause hydrodynanmic damage(though you may not see it/ or it's not signifigant)
IThe more energy the bullet puts in its target the more force of the wave, however the placement, can determine how much is absorbed bone, muscle whatever
 
Killin' crickets with a baseball bat? Overkill, ain't it?? Wouldn't a fly swatter do? :D

Shot a spike two years ago with a 150 .30 caliber Nosler BT at about 1900-2000 fps impact velocity. The shot was in the lungs high just behind the shoulder and about 3" under the spine. That deer dropped so fast, I thought for a minute I'd missed, but it was piled up in its tracks where it had stood. That wasn't all that fast a bullet, but it was packin' around 1100 ft lbs plus or minus at that range, enough, I think, to affect the spinal cord with pressure wave effects. I hit nothing, but lung. The was no obvious damage to the spine, bullet passed well under it. I got good expansion on the bullet. It's the only explanation to why it shut down so quick that I could come up with.

I really thing that if the bullet is packin' the energy, it really doesn't matter much whether it's made with velocity or bullet mass. 1100 ft lbs is 1100 ft lbs. It's just a lot easier to make energy with velocity since the energy is proportional to the square of the velocity and is linear with respect to mass. But, if you play with loads and ballistic programs enough, you'll figure out that a given caliber is going to make similar energy with a heavy bullet as it is with a light bullet going faster. IIRC, the .243 is in the 1800-2000 ft lb range with any given bullet weight.
 
One thing for sure: Itty-bitty bullets going really, really fast make a wound cavity all out of proportion to their size. A velocity at impact at or above some 3,400 to 3,500 ft/sec does truly horrible things to bodily parts.

I think of results I've seen from a 40-grain bullet from a Swift, or an 80-grain bullet from an '06. Yuck. Double handful thereof. :)
 
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