Hypothetical workplace scenario...what would you do?

[WolfMansDad]

Trying to stop a workplace shooter isn't machismo. It's simply the right thing to do, regardless of whether you are armed or not, man or woman, young or old. If it were to happen where I work, I would be scared to death. I practice karate. I carry concealed where my permit is valid. But I know I'm not a soldier. I might chicken out and run, who knows. I don't know what I would do if actually confronted with the choice, but I do know what I ought to do.

Imagine this. Somebody goes on a VT-style rampage at your wife's place of work, not yours. (Ladies imagine your husband's work, children's school, etc.) You aren't there, but someone with a ccw is there and they are armed. When the shooting starts, they duck out the back door and go sit in their car. After five or ten minutes (before the police have arrived), the perp finds your wife hiding behind a desk and shoots her. How would you feel toward the individual sitting safely outside in their car, with a loaded gun in their pocket? He/she had the ability to stop the shooter, or to at least interrupt the spree until the cops arrive, but instead chose to do nothing. I don't know how you guys would feel, but I would be livid.

Running away in fear when someone needs your help, and you have the ability to help them, used to have a name. It was called cowardice. Many have succumbed to it under pressure. If a man knows his duty but can't muster up the courage to do it, it is not my place to judge him. He knows his shame, and I can't guarantee I would do any better. However, I will condemn the man who makes cowardice his plan from the start.

 

[ilbob]

I am amazed at how many people think this is like TV or the movies where you can walk in on some hoodlum and save the day. In real life it does not work that way. Even forgetting the potential for being shot by the BG(s) or the cops, or shooting the wrong guy, or getting sued afterward for shooting the right guy, what would you gain?

Protect yourself as best you can, help protect the innocents around you as best you can, and leave the cop work to the cops. They will eventually show up to tag the bodies and make reports. Often the cops showing up will trigger a suicide instinct in the BG anyway.

The chances of you running out to your car, getting your gun, getting back inside, and killing the BG are pretty slim. Chances are the cops come in and see a guy with a gun, they will just start blasting. They do not care if you are a GG, BG, or just a bystander. They will just shoot most of the time, if they see a guy with a gun they cannot immediately ID as a cop in such a situation. Later on they will write a report about how you failed to follow lawful instructions or made some kind of aggressive movement against them. It won't matter. You will be dead. I read once that the typical time from a cop giving an initial instruction to disarm to the actual first shot being fired is a couple of seconds. There is no way you will ever be able to respond safely and disarm in a few seconds when you and mr cop are all hyped up in such a situation. He is looking for any reason at all to shoot you. Even blinking your eyes at him could cause him to shoot.

 

[KINGMAX]

As a General Officers driver we were taught escape & evasion. I would say with not knowing all the facts, escape w/ a may people as you can. It would be better for you in cilvilian clothes to not be in a position where you may be mistaken for a rouge gunman instead of a good samaritian.

 

[torpid]

Sometimes however, you can do everything totally right, and still die.

A great maxim.
And of course, we can't forget the bizarre flip side we've all seen:

You can also do everything totally wrong, and still somehow manage to end up alive.

 

[WolfMansDad]

escape w/ a may people as you can.

Good point. There are many ways to help, and not all of them involve engaging the gunman. You could be helping others escape or giving first aid to the wounded. But don't plan on just ducking out the back door to save your own ass, leaving the rest to their fates.

 

[RH822]

If you want to live, and you want others to live, you had better second guess every encounter and learn from them.

You learn from your mistakes. I made several major tactical blunders that for all intents and purposes should have made me, and the person I was trying to help dead.

I agree with everything you just wrote, I quoted the above statement for only one reason. judging by that statement you had/have a career in a field which requires you to be put in "tactical" situations far more often than the average Joe.

For the record, I did get involved in somebody elses' business once, to try and help and innocent person. I pulled my gun, and the bad guy decided to put his gun down, and his buddies decided they would go someplace else

However in this quote you give the impression that this was the only time you had ever been in that situation.
(CCW instructors can have boring day jobs too)

My "don't second guess yourself" comment was to your decision to get involved, not your tactics.

RH

 

[Green Lantern]

Imagine this. Somebody goes on a VT-style rampage at your wife's place of work, not yours. (Ladies imagine your husband's work, children's school, etc.) You aren't there, but someone with a ccw is there and they are armed. When the shooting starts, they duck out the back door and go sit in their car. After five or ten minutes (before the police have arrived), the perp finds your wife hiding behind a desk and shoots her. How would you feel toward the individual sitting safely outside in their car, with a loaded gun in their pocket? He/she had the ability to stop the shooter, or to at least interrupt the spree until the cops arrive, but instead chose to do nothing. I don't know how you guys would feel, but I would be livid.

I mentioned something similar to this earlier. While I would naturally have preferred that the CCWer save my wife, I would not hold any ill feelings toward him for running, for two reasons:

-HE probably has a wife and family too. And if not, then he assuredly at least has his OWN life. Who am **I** to say that my wife's life is worth more than his life???

-Unless the CCWer works in security, who made my wife's well-being HIS responsibility?

Also as I said before, there would be anger - but probably directed at myself for not trying to make sure my wife had as much "know-how" as I could give her (or pay for her to get from professionals ) to DEAL with such a situation. Or even that I didn't try to persuade her harder NOT to work in a "victim disarmament" zone.

And technically since she's my wife and not my property, she's in charge of her own decisions in the end anyway, no matter what protests I or others may have.

 

[obxned]

Stuck in the building and your gun is in the car in the parking lot? How much would you give to have a tiny, inadequate, useless little NAA .22 mini-revolver in your pocket?

 

[evan price]

I shoot literally thousands of rounds a year in practice. Mozambique, rapid fire, off hand, etc. I did some stress excercises involving chopping firewood and then shooting to simulate stressful situations. I am FAR from an expert shooter. I am just a guy who shoots a lot.
I don't own body armor.
I normally carry a single-stack 9mm.
I am a big nonstealthy guy, 6'1" 255 lbs.
I am not a Special Seal Forces Recon Ranger Paratrooper Mall Ninja.
I am a regular guy who carries a gun for protecting myself and my family as a last resort.

*IF* I had my gun on me-
*IF* a workplace shooting developed-
*IF* I was unable to reach a place of cover/concealment sufficient to withstand assault-
I might consider engaging the BG. But:
I am not doing a clearing excercise or a hunting expedition.
I am not sworn.
I am not bulletproof.
I am not Jack Bauer or Batman.
My first priority is to make sure my butt gets home.
I have no special responsibility to make sure YOUR butt gets home. We all take risks. We all know that we all must die sometime. Maybe next year. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe ten seconds after you read this message.

If we're talking a VT scenario, if I were able to barricade the room with the 40 co-workers inside, if the shooter tried to enter, he would be repulsed until I ran out of ammo.


As I said in the previous post:

People who would charge in- Ask this: "Would I still be gung-ho to charge in WITHOUT a gun?"
If the answer is NO you really need to reconsider why you CCW.

 

[Dravur]

You don't know what you don't know....

Scenario... I juist ran to my car, grabbed my pistol and ran back inside.. I see a guy with a gun. Alex Trebek pops up in my head. He offers these choices....
a. another employee with a gun....
b. Bad guy with a gun...
c. Off duty or plain clothes officer who happened to be in the neighborhood.

Do I pick A, B, or C?

Scenario 2. I am the police officer responding and just arrived on scene. I see a guy armed with a gun running into the building. Alex trebek pops into his head.
a. Shoot the BG running into the building.
b. Shoot the BG running into the building.
c. Order bad guy to stop, then shoot him.

Which does he pick? A, B or C?

Now for Final Jeopardy. The answer is...Dead or lots of time in the Pokey.....

Question? What is a likely outcome of me playing Rambo.

Ooohhh, hope you didnt bet the whole stash of cash. cus Mary from Bumwater bet nothing and still has her $2500 and her freedom.

 

[98C5]

The chances of you running out to your car, getting your gun, getting back inside, and killing the BG are pretty slim. Chances are the cops come in and see a guy with a gun, they will just start blasting. They do not care if you are a GG, BG, or just a bystander. They will just shoot most of the time, if they see a guy with a gun they cannot immediately ID as a cop in such a situation

Remind me to never go to Illinois.

 

[Correia]

judging by that statement you had/have a career in a field which requires you to be put in "tactical" situations far more often than the average Joe.

Nope, at the time I was an accountant.

I'm a CCW instructor/NFA dealer/amature writer now, but my background is just that of any old regular guy who happens to be a gun nut. Probably like most everybody else on here.

 

[WeThePeople]

I have my sidearm with me almost always so the scenario is slightly different for me. It is a small enough workplace that we all know each other pretty well, so I would save those who I can. If my gun were in my car, I still would probably do the same. I don't think that I could live with the memories of gun shots and screaming unless i knew that I tried my best.

I have a family that depends on me and don't want to leave them behind. However, I have life insurance to provide for them financially. I also consider myself responsible for the moral upbringing of my kids along with my wife. I don't want them to turn into people who wouldn't put themselves into harm's way for another human being. Yes, it would be a very hard life lesson, but one that would be invaluable.

 

[KingHugh]

When we all got our permits we didn't automatically join a group with an obligation to protect anybody else. In most cases, we, the armed citizens are not trained, or properly equipped, and entering a building with an active shooter in an attempt to clear the area, and or protect the other employees, is just plain foolish.

Let's say your were driving down the street, and heard shots being fired in a building, would you stop and go in side to intervene? Same thing, you are outside the situation, and inject yourself into it.

Protect yourself first, protect those around you if you can, go home at the end of the day.