Hypothetical workplace scenario...what would you do?

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I think the concept that "I am not your body guard, get your own gun" has some merit.
However at the sound of gunshots, I move toward the fight. I am a combat medic. I go toward the need, and am prepared to shoot to protect myself or my patients.
Consider however: ANYONE openly carrying a gun is a target when the LEO shows up, so don't think everyone in this situation is going to know you where the hero.

So far, every recent shooting scenario has had the cops sitting outside, until the killer shoots himself, so maybe you can take him out without getting hurt.
 
There is no right answer.

What you would do is totally up to you.

Every single one of us has a different set of skills, training, knowledge, and ability. Every single one of us works in a different environment, with different people.

So for some of you, get off your high horse. You want to play Jack Bauer, whatever. Goodie for you. If somebody else wants to run away, good for them.

And it is pretty irrelvant what you say here on the internet anyway. From what I've seen from years of helping run this place, our posters are uniformly super skilled, amazingly courageous, always react well under stress, always do the right thing, and are good looking to boot. :rolleyes:

If your CCW instructor ever told a story during class about what amazing act of bravery he would do in a situation like this, and implied that you should do the same as his imaginary act of courage, he is an ass, and is teaching just to stroke his ego.
 
Correia, in light of what you posted, I couldn't guarantee that there wouldn't be a moment of disbelieving hesitation or that I wouldn't piss myself (though past experience indicates to the contrary). Also, I'm average to below average on the looks department. And I fart a lot.

But then, what does that add to the discussion?
 
What I'm getting at, is that we tend to have this discussion a lot.

And it usually resolves down to somebody calling everyone else a coward for not doing exactly what they would do, and somebody else calling them stupid for not running.

The fact is, half of what people post here is conjecture anyway.

You're going to default to your lowest level of training. So if you've trained yourself to always seek out the threat and engage, that is one thing, but if you've trained yourself to get away, that is different.

One of the greatest weaknesses of the internet is that we tend to assume everyone else is the same as us. Teaching actual people in the real world has taught me one thing. Everybody is different. I've had classes with a little old lady who has never touched a gun before sitting next to a guy who just got back from his third combat deployment with Army SF.

What works for the 18Bravo is different than granny.

But here on the internet, the assumption usually runs to the commando side of things, as opposed to granny. This isn't helped by the fact that many of our posters are average suburbanite Americans who've never even seen anything done in anger, let alone actually engaged a living, screaming, moving, enraged, crazy guy with a gun. So there is a lot of conjecture in these discussions.
 
I honestly cannot say what I'd do. I hope I would try and stop him. Has nothing to do with being a hero or being Jack Bauer:rolleyes:I call it humanity and possibly saving a life or to. I don't know about others, but I would feel very guilty if I didn't try and several people were hurt or killed. Flee if you will, but if having a CCW permit and carrying just to save ones own ass is selfish.
 
Correia

You're not wrong, and I think it's important that the hyperbole of many posts in scenarios such as this not be lost on the reader. However, the way this particular one's chugging along, it does seem that the finger pointing has been kept to a relative minimum compared to other threads in the past. Granted the answers are limited to "stay in place," "go," and "go and come back."

Still, there's something to be gained from having one of these topics come up now and again - it gets the wheels turning and hopefully reminds some to be prepared. The caveat that it be done in the proper context is important though, and I meant above only to make light of it some rather than slam ya. You're right. Bottom line - 99% of what you read on the internet won't make it through the BS filter.
 
I almost always avoid these type of threads because there are far too many variables to give an answer. One thing I'm constantly aware of is the effect my appearance has on cops. I'm 6'1", 195lbs, long hair tied back, beard, usually dressed in old 501s, engineer boots, black bandana and a leather jacket or vest.
If cops show up looking for a "man with a gun" and they see me skulking about with my shooter in my hand, there's a real good chance that they'll open up on my handsome ass in a heartbeat. Maybe they'll come up behind me and yell "Freeze" or some such to which my response would likely be to spin around with a gun in my hand.
Either way, The Biker has a real bad day. Don't know about y'all, but I'm allergic to lead and look horrible in red.
Lotsa things to think about.

Biker
 
Call 911 for sure. Give 'em location and all the information you can, even if you're charging into the place.

As for anything else - state law in TX allows protection of other human lives, so going 'Jack Bauer' seems to be semi-alright, from a legal standpoint.

Things to realize if you do decide to go in (rehashing some other points):

1. You may very well die or be permanently crippled. If you are the main provider for your family, that can be a very major issue. You may leave them in poverty. The person who shoots/attacks you may be the shooter, may be a CHL guy or cop who's nerves are on edge... someone may come up behind you while you're seeking out the threat and put a hole in your head.

2. You may fail miserably in your task. You may accidentally shoot the wrong person, you may cause someone else to get shot that otherwise wouldn't. Murphy's Law, after all. Are you prepared to go into a situation where you may die/suffer permanent injury and accomplish absolutely nothing?

Getting over PTSD or whatever it's called nowadays is easier than getting out from under six feet of dirt.

As for me, I'm unmarried, in college, not the main provider for the family unit of which I'm a part. I think I would act in that situation, but it's also possible that I'd run away screaming like a little girl. No legal duty involved, just what I see as a moral duty for me and only me. Those of you who'd stay put or leave, I'm not saying a thing against doing so. You don't know what the situation is, or if you could do a thing to stop it. Might exacerbate the situation by getting involved.
 
Flee if you will, but if having a CCW permit and carrying just to save ones own ass is selfish.
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And that is the kind of judgement I'm talking about, and frankly, you are not qualified to make it.

And I'm not qualified to make that judgement of any of you.

Your CCW isn't a badge. It doesn't make you a hero or a junior danger ranger. Your CCW doesn't come equipped with a big red cape.

If you've got the skills, knowledge, and mindset, to run toward the sound of gunfire, awesome. But never put that burden on somebody else.

If I go play hero, and maybe save some innocent person's life, that is great and all, unless I get shot in the brain, and leave my wife a widow, and my kid's fatherless.

So what's the right answer? That's up to you. Nobody else.

And if you presume to judge somebody elses' answer, then you're wrong. Running don't make you selfish, and fighting don't make you brave. You are what you are, and the only person qualified to judge you, is you.
 
Ahhhhh... So it's preferable just to let folks get killed when one may have the ability to stop it.
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Be sure to change into your Captain America suit first.

So, you're going to grab your handgun and go back in and save the day? Do you have the training to think you can pull that off without backup? How many shooters are there? Do they have AKs? Body armor? If you see someone with a gun, is it a BG, or an innocent with a gun, like you? Do you shoot first, or tell him to "freeze?" You face the BG, but he has a hostage. He tells you to drop your weapon or he'll kill the hostage. What are you going to do? If you get into a firefight, will you be responsible for every round that leaves your gun? Do you have a family that needs you to come home for them?

If your conscience and belief system command you to go back in, you will. Just don't suggest that is the appropriate action for everyone.

K
 
"Ride to the sound of the guns."

Remember, you may use your weapon to defend third parties, just as you may use it to save your own.

I wouldn't be able to live with myself after hiding in safety while innocents were massacred.
 
But here on the internet, the assumption usually runs to the commando side of things, as opposed to granny. This isn't helped by the fact that many of our posters are average suburbanite Americans who've never even seen anything done in anger, let alone actually engaged a living, screaming, moving, enraged, crazy guy with a gun. So there is a lot of conjecture in these discussions.
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Very well said. I'm sure everyone on this board, including myself, would have the instinct and urge to *want to help* protect innocents who are being victimized. But, having CCW does not give you the legal authority, let alone the training, to insert yourself into a tactically complex situation with more unknowns than you could ever envision as you sit here and play the keyboard commando. (I'm using the generic "you" here, not referring to any one in particular, Correia)

K
 
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As a part time peace officer of 20+ years I'll inject my $0.04 (up $.02 due to the high cost of living in NY). Most police department that I have been involved with train their officers to avoid armed police action while off duty. They are told to call 911 and observe the action and be a good witness. There are many reasons for this. First, we want to avoid friendly fire incidents. If you are out of uniform and holding a gun you are a target. Second, off duty you don't have backup, body armor, or other police equipment that you might need. Third, in some circumstances you might not have all the facts. What if this some kind of a training exercise or a movie being filmed.
Fourth, If you die playing hero who is going to take care of your family?
Fifth, You will probably get sued and have to spend your kids college fund to pay for your own lawyer.

Having a CCW does not make you Superman or even a police officer. A CCW is for the protection of you and your family, not the world at large. As a civilian, in most states you have a legal duty to retreat when its possible to do so safely. If you were able to get to your car then you could safely retreat. Reentering the building means that you are no longer acting in self defense. The use of deadly force many open you to criminal lliability in addition to the inevitable civil liability.

I'm not saying that you should never act to help another person but you need to think thru your actions very carefully. The guy in AL that pulled a gun on the bank robber didn't help. He should have let the guy go and gotten a description of the guy and the car and direction of travel and given that to the police. Instead he forced the robber to take a hostage. Money can be replaced but the hostage could have died. How would you feel if you saved the banks money but a hostage was killed. All the money in the bag wouldn't pay for your shinks and lawyers bills.
 
I guess I'm Jack Bauer and Superman.
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Well, hooray for you. You won the Internet.


Now in all seriousness, if your plan is to head in the direction of the gunfire, you're going to need to prepare. A lot. The average CCWer isn't up to the task. They may think they are, but the average skill level is pretty abysmal.

If you haven't attended some advanced firearms classes, I would suggest you do so. Then start practicing.

You may need to engage the target at longer ranges, so the days of carrying a comfy pocket gun are done.

I would suggest going through some force on force training.

Perhaps once you do some of this stuff, you'll see why most of the professionals are telling you that it is a pretty crappy situation, and you're chances of getting killed are going to be high.

If you're cool with that, awesome.

But once you get an idea of how much it sucks, maybe you won't be so fast to condemn those who would rather run.

My students always ask me what I would do in specific situations, usually after we talk about mass shooters. I tell them it doesn't matter. I've shot a thousand times as much as some of them, and have had the opportunity to work with some really good teachers. What I would do is totally irrelevant, and I wouldn't judge any of them any different if they turned and ran.
 
I would love to go to a intensive class for basic skills. Unfortunately, there is nothing like that around here. I will have to do some research. I agree with you Correia regarding the need to prepare. If I sounded like I was trying to condemn the individuals that would rather get out of Dodge, then I apologize. I guess since I'm so close to my coworkers that I would almost consider it family. I know emotions need to be checked at the door if a situation like this would happen. I appreciate everyones answers and opinions and seriously consider my future actions if, God forbid, this happened.

98
 
I've never ran before, but I have executed a strategic withdrawal on occasion... ahem. I've been in a few terminal situations in my time and I was never Hollywood about it. I was never calm and cool. I mean, my stuff was tighter than a gnat's rectum and it *always* felt like there was a school of hungry pirhanas in my belly gut. When it was over, my body felt like I drank three pots of coffee on an empty stomach and not long after that, I sometimes got the shidabadoodles and had to run for the throne.
Ain't much about being a hero I recommend. Nothing will keep me from reaching my loved ones but after that, I can't say.
Then there are the civil suits...

Biker
 
I can't believe you guys are even debating this. When people are hurting and in need, step up! Even if you aren't armed, get in there and fight. Help out those around you.

Can you imagine saying this after the fact? "Yeah, I had a gun, but I let my helpless friends and coworkers get shot anyway. I might have gotten hurt, and I'm afraid of lawyers."

Flame on.
 
Even if you aren't armed, get in there and fight. Help out those around you.
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if I'm unarmed , I dun think I would wanna get in there and fight. fight with what ? :confused: Even If I'm a martial arts expert , I wouldn't wanna fight a BG armed with a firearms barehanded. :banghead:

most probably scenario is to lock the office door and barricade the door with several tables to prevent the BG from coming in. This is what I would do if I'm unarmed and doesn't have a firearms in my car. :)

you may say that I'm a coward , but I wouldn't wanna waste my life for nothing. :(
 
The guy in AL that pulled a gun on the bank robber didn't help. He should have let the guy go and gotten a description of the guy and the car and direction of travel and ...
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He should have shot him.
 
I can't believe you guys are even debating this.
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I think you're missing the point.

When people are hurting and in need, step up!
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Easy to say on the internet. Sometimes hard to do in real life.

Even if you aren't armed, get in there and fight.
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And what? Whenever somebody massacres a bunch of unarmed people, we all get to hear latter about all of the awesome things people on the internet would have done to save the day.

Help out those around you.
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Good to say, IF you have the ability to do so.

Instead of being a tough, hard core, super-dooper heroic type macho guy, like all of us on THR apparently are, what if the CCW holder was your mom? Your grandma? What if it was your 21 year old daughter? What if it is your uncle with bad arthritus who needs to walk with a cane?

They're all CCW holders too.

Should they rush in there towards the sound of gunfire? Should granny and her .38 and your daughter with her 9mm KelTec, even though they've got an avenue of escape, leapfrog from cover to cover until they can engage the guy with the AK47?

Look, I'm not flaming anybody. If you really want to head in the direction of trouble, I just want you to wake up and be prepared for what your espousing.

I know what most CCW holders are capable of. I'm one of the people that puts them out their with their permits. I've taught almost 100 people so far this month. I've got 22 more tonight. And I've been doing this for three years, so I've seen a pretty dang good cross section of the CCWing public.

Some of my students? If they want to head in the direction of the gunfire, God speed my friend, because they are smart, tactically aware, experienced, and most of all, know how to fight. Some of the others? They're gonna die. They're gonna flat out get killed.

They might be fine in a regular CCW type scenario, but a mass workplace shooter isn't average. That is the worst case scenario. That is a nightmare.

For the record, I did get involved in somebody elses' business once, to try and help and innocent person. I pulled my gun, and the bad guy decided to put his gun down, and his buddies decided they would go someplace else.

Looking back, it was a fricking miracle that I didn't get killed. I did pretty much everything wrong, and got really really lucky. I was a lot younger, and the stuff that I would say back then sounds suspiciously what some people on this thread are saying now.

And like Biker, I didn't feel particularly heroic afterward.

And my situation was a pretty straight forward thing. It wasn't a long string of gunfire and screaming coming from another part of the building, and me heading randomly in that direction. This is totally different that having the situation happen right in front of you, where you know what is going on. This is an unknown, and you're going after it.

Like I said, if you're planning on doing that, you better damn well prepare yourself. Hate to break it to you, but most of us aren't prepared.
 
Sometimes, in an effort to promote caution, we unintentionally discourage action. I don't think most on here are advocating inaction, just educated decision-making.

For my part, I want to encourage people to make a decision (as much as you can) before any situations may arise.

All that said, I'm glad there's still "Heroes" out there in the world.
 
I would pull the fire alarm and exit the building. Like Biker said when the cops do show up they will have just one more dumb a$$ to weed out. Sometimes the way they weed them out isn't too pleasant. Those who are dying to get into a gunfight may just get their wish.

Jim
 
For the record, I did get involved in somebody elses' business once, to try and help and innocent person. I pulled my gun, and the bad guy decided to put his gun down, and his buddies decided they would go someplace else.

Looking back, it was a fricking miracle that I didn't get killed. I did pretty much everything wrong, and got really really lucky. I was a lot younger, and the stuff that I would say back then sounds suspiciously what some people on this thread are saying now.
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But what matters is, you DID get involved, you DID save an Innocent, you DID stop the bad guy. What would have happened if all you DID was nothing?
It's for people like you that we created words like "Hero". You may not think your one...I bet the person you helped thinks otherwise.
My point, don't second guess yourself for doing whats right.


Sometimes courage is the ability to ignore common sense.

RH
 
My point, don't second guess yourself for doing whats right.
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Wrong.

If you want to live, and you want others to live, you had better second guess every encounter and learn from them.

You learn from your mistakes. I made several major tactical blunders that for all intents and purposes should have made me, and the person I was trying to help dead.

The only thing I had going for me was luck. Since I can't teach luck now, I try to teach reality.

There is nothing wrong with getting involved. But you need to have a clue what you're doing. If you are committing to being that person that is going to go towards trouble, then you had damn well better learn from the mistakes of others.

The vast majority of CCW holders are totally and completely unprepared for this kind of situation.

My main problem with threads like this is the presumption that somehow courage, morality, and good intentions carry the day. There is this automatic assumption of what the right thing is. If you win a fight, it isn't because you're good and the other guy is more evil. You win because you outfought them, or you were just plain sneakier, meaner, or better than your opponent.

Sometimes however, you can do everything totally right, and still die. That's how it works.

This is a fun little intellectual exercise for some folks here. But in about an hour I've got to go stand in front of a classroom and give a lecture to 22 people about the use of lethal force in self defense. This topic will come up.

And if I told the people in that room that there was always a right answer, black and white, good and evil, and that it was the same answer for everybody, then I would be a hypocrit and a liar.

Sorry, that's the way it is.
 
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