Hypothetical workplace scenario...what would you do?

[dralarms]

OK I wasn't going to post but I guess I have to.

I carry 24/7 (well almost) the only time I am unarmed is where it is against the law. If, and that's a big If I am in one of those places and I can make it to my car then I will NOT reenter and go looking for the perp. I will reenter and try and make safe exits (which if I can get out so should they be able to)for others while keeping my rear covered.

If I am in one of those places that I am allowed to carry, I'll wait until I can safely unholster my firearm and shoot only if necessary to save a life (mine or anyone else's).

I ain't no hero, I will not go chasing someone through the building trying to take him out, but if confronted I will.

I was working in a retail store doing some alarm work when this guy comes in and starts talking about he "gonna rob the place", well this is a bad part of town and the retail store has bars on the windows (been doing work for them for 14 years and it's the only location that has bars), anyway I'm standing on a ladder just out of "line of sight" of this fellow, so I tell my son to back up behind me (he is carrying) and I kinda shift my weight so that the fellow is able to see me and my gun (but I still can move out of the line of fire if necessary). Well he sees this and high tails it to the door. The manager just looks at me a grins like "glad you were here". They are not allowed to carry and if robbed they are instructed to give them what they want period. However, this fellow was strung out on crack or meth and I think if he got started there would have been some dead employees.

Probably not the smartest thing I ever did but it did save a lot of head ache later trying "to be a good witness".

 

[Riz58]

Blackhawk:

You acted and may have saved the life of a pregnant women, and at least that of her unborn baby. While you spent a few hours in jail, and a few weeks without your firearm, things seemed to have quickly worked themselves out.

I am surprised that you are so embittered by the event. While it could not have been fun, your act of courage is what is missing so much in today's society. If someone were beating my daughter, I would hope that someone would intervene to help her. Thank you for helping this woman.

 

[Green Lantern]

I am surprised that you are so embittered by the event.

He may well be bitter, but that was not the impression I got when reading his posts. Just that he's learned from experience that helping out others (esp. strangers or people you're not very close with) can have unintended consequences.

I am somewhat shocked at the responses I have seen here. Save yourself?? What the hell is the point of having a CCW if it just to save yourself?

Luckily for me, here in NC they don't make us take an oath to protect every man, woman, and child we come across when they issue our permits...

Well....for me it's to protect my loved ones, and myself (in that order when I'm with any of them). And anyone else, provided the situation is 110% crystal-clear.

IE, just because I'm not going to run blind into a shooting does NOT mean that I'm just going to walk away and do nothing if I see a man stick a knife in a woman's face and demand that she hand over her purse and pull her skirt off so he can 'have some fun.'

As I mentioned above, the guy you're passing judgment on got his opinions based on real-life experience. If you have ever gone into a situation like the one in the OP, we'd be glad to hear the tale.

Until then, you're free to have your opinion, but know that (like me and most of us), until you've BEEN in a situation like this, all you we can post is our "best guesses."


BTW:

friends/coworkers

...NOT one and the same, either.

If it were close friends or family in that situation with me, then my opinion would change dramatically. Either I'd make sure we ALL got to safety, or I probably would get my gun and go back in after them.

It would STILL be reckless-bordering-on-suicidal to go in there armed (though my priority one would be getting friends OUT and taking on the BG only if I had to), but the alternative would be worse to me.

And if I did have friends in there but I was no where around, but I later learned that there WERE CCWers that worked there that got out and fled, I would NOT hold that against them! I would understand that THEY had families to take care of too. I would probably be angry not at them, but at myself for not taking more time to express the importance of things like situational awareness to my friends....

 

[jaholder1971]

The scenario offered isn't plausible where I work as my shops are spread over a 5 square mile area with 30 buildings and about 900 people working over 3 shifts. We're also in bad part of town, not too bad during the day but can be dicey at night.

In short, I'd try to get myself and as many of those around me to the safety of my vehicle where courtesy of Kansas HB 2528 allows a CHL holder to keep a firearm in their vehicle despite any company personnel policies. Once there, provide defense of those gathered as best i could until the cops arrived.

Just grabbing a gun and looking for the shooter to engage will get you killed, either by the bad guy or the cops. Let the bad guy come to you and engage.

 

[blackhawk2000]

Thank you Riz. You are the first person to thank me for what I did.

Things did work out luckily enough. They didn't take just the gun involved they took them all. I had to live across the hall from this clown until I got them back. I couldn't go out and buy anything because I had pending felonious assault with a weapon charges. I have a 2" stack of paperwork on the incident, that could have cost me getting my CCW. I have this charge on my record, that could be used against me in the future, or it may help. I really don't want to find out either way though. And the worst part about it all, is now I have this attitude towards the whole helping someone else scenario.

We just had an office shooting here in MI recently. The shooter walked right past the secretary. She chose to warn one of her bosses in the opposite direction of the shooter. The gunman turned around and killed her for her good deed. If she was carrying she could have shot the guy to slide lock in the back, and everyone (that mattered) would be alive. She chose not to carry a gun. Part of the reason she is dead is because of that decision.

Just because we choose to go about our daily lives armed, does not make us responsible for protecting those that don't arm themselves. Would I shoot the gunman if I was running out the door, and crossed his path? You bet. But if I make it out that door, I'm gone.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I am somewhat shocked at the responses I have seen here. Save yourself?? What the hell is the point of having a CCW if it just to save yourself?

Well 98C5, that's pretty much exactly the point. Law after law after law stresses that the use of a gun is justifiable in SELF-DEFENSE ONLY. There are some locations that also say in defense of the life of another, but not everyone lives in such a place and you MUST consider that when reading the responses that others write.

Just a, hopefully, helpful reminder by the way (and this is not aimed at anyone in particular but just a general note). Posting (on an easily accessed public forum) that you would do anything other than act in a calm, reasoned, and lawful manner is not the best of ideas. Should (God forbid) you ever be involved in a situation and the opposite side does a web-search some of your statements would sway a jury heavily with regards to "prior-intent".

As to the original question, My grandfather (a very smart man overall) used to say... "If you can't be part of the solution at least avoid being part of the problem". In this scenario you stand a really good chance of becoming part of the problem if you "go hunting". I could see getting out, arming yourself, and then going back to get other co-workers out, but going back in with the express intent of tracking down the threat and eliminating it is heroic grandstanding because you DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION. I can easily think of several scenarios that fit your description and where inserting yourself into the situation would be an extremely poor choice.

 

[sonofodin]

Guess this stoked a fire in me to drop a couple quarters of my mind. Onwards: Think of it like this...If I am out fishing and some guy starts beating on a girl am I going to sock him in the eye? Yeah, of course I am. Same with someone hitting their kids. If a guy is getting angry with another guy and pulls a gun/blade am I going to stick up for the unarmed guy? Yeah, of course I am. At that point I am going to do my best to avoid and FATAL violence, this includes non-fatal shots and getting the police involved to legally handle the matter. However, sometimes its best not to get yourself involved if you cannot competently handle what you just put yourself into. As far as the SHTF question originally posted, it would be most wise to arm yourself for your own defense and try, if and only if you can, to save as many people as possible. Obviously a nut is going to kill any or every one, I would be troubled with myself if I knew that I had the skills to aid them and save them but did nothing. Help them, neutralize if you must, but remember, you have one life and only one life to live (unless your an odinist like me, then you fight the guy and go to Valhalla regardless). Let the government do their thing. If you followed what was right and did the good and just thing, let the corruption of them (government) lay upon you. A god among men that is misunderstood is better than a spineless worm in a river of predator fish.

 

[CNYCacher]

*bad guy goes down after taking the full force of a 6'5 330lb man hitting him full speed*

WHOOOO!!!
You can't be bringing that weak ass glock up in dis humpty-bumpty! And you know that, baby! You are in for a looong day, a long, painful day, cause Triple-T is up in this BIAAAATCH!

 

[Glockman17366]

I go with Ilbob...once outside the building...do not go back in! The other folks have to do what they gotta do...

I think everyone of us wants to help...but there's substantial reasoning to stay with your car, if you get out of the building.

As several others have written...who are you going to shoot? Who are you going to save?

Once the cops are onsite, you'd be the "man with the gun"...not a good thing to be!

I hope none of us ever face this scenario. If I do...I'm going to do my best to clear the building. If I can't, and the maniac comes my way...I hope I've got the testicles to do anything that would stop him (to me, everything has the potential to be a weapon)

To ZeSpectre:
"Law after law after law stresses that the use of a gun is justifiable in SELF-DEFENSE ONLY."

In PA, you can use your weapon to prevent rape or bodily harm of another person, so at least in PA, it's not strictly self defense.

I still would not go back into that building though.

 

[helpless]

Sorry I can not relate to this because I dont recognize "Gun Free Zones" You will find that you can avoid most "what if" scenarios, long before they happen.

Just get another job if your personal safety is important to you. You would prob get in less trouble if you had to pull your concealed handgun while in a "gun free" zone and managed to stop a threat. Apposed to running out to your car and then back in after the gunman.

 

[DomMega]

These are all great responses because the reasons given for them are all very valid.

I live in California so hypothetically everyone in the workplace dies as we hide behind desks and chairs, reminiscent of the Columbine library. That scenario turned out extremely well didn't it?

If it was legal for me to carry I WOULD go back into the building because as it so happens, I work with family.

 

[evan price]

Truthfully, if you can exit the situation, if you go back in you are another aggressor. You're not Jack Bauer.
Don't think for a moment that your company will thank you for whatever you do. If you get your gun they will fire you for violating company policy and leaving them open for a lawsuit possibly.
Sounds bad but you are not a sworn LEO. Now if the shooter were known to me and he happened to be passing nearby that's another story.
There's very few people in this world I would catch a bullet for and I don't work with any of them.

 

[starboard]

A messy situation with incomplete information. Tough to deal with even for the police. While I'm all for taking out the trash in general, in this case IMHO it's best to provide cover for whatever group gathers around you while you make your exit.

 

[jeepmor]

Don't think for a moment that your company will thank you for whatever you do.

No kidding, it's sad, but this statement is overwhelmingly true in a corporate environment.

Depends on who they're shooting. I see some personalities that I won't say deserve this type of end, because no one but the shooter does, but honestly, somedays I'm surprised we've never had an incident.

This giant corporation with 5000 plus people on campus doesn't give a piddly damn about me, I can reciprocate. I've been burned so damn many times taking the high road and fighting the good fight against these ridiculously unscrupulous types that I'm not going to save their bacon before mine, ever.

I can't and won't ever condone people being shot in this manner, but again, as stated, I am surprised there has never been an incident at my employer's campus.

 

[98C5]

I respect all the answers I've heard here. I am surprised at some, but can understand the logic.
I know almost everyone in the company I work for. I've been there 13 years. If I saw a disgruntled ex employee or just some nut job entering the building with a firearm, I would not just cover my ass, I would try and stop him/her. The good thing is that if I told my coworkers(that know I carry in the car)I'm getting my pistol, they would tell the front desk/supervisors. When the police do arrive they can differentiate me from the BG.Would my company thank me for this? Most definately. We are pretty close and I guess that's why I didn't understand some of the answers here. But I do now.

Of course, there is no way to tell what would happen if this did occur.

 

[greenflash107]

I work with a total of 9 people including myself. Two of those employees are truck drivers that leave very early. That leaves a total of 7 of us there during the day. Three of us has CCW and have weapons in the cars. I know that all three of us would be trying to get to those guns and STOP the shooter. I couldn't live with myself if I had the means to stop someone from killing my coworkers and did nothing.

 

[GEM]

One solution in my mind is to pass legislation that forbids companies to ban carry by licensed individuals except for specific technical reasons.

This usually brings out howls from the private property and employer rights are supreme folks.

I don't buy that an employer can take away your right to self defense. I opine that this usage of my 'castle and I'm king in it' is dandy until you start employing other folks outside of your family and expect the police, paid for by taxes, to save your butt.

We have taken away the 'right' of business owners to be bigots in the behavioral sense. They cannot ban from their 'castle' the African-American and the Jews. If you argue that you should be able to do that in your 'castle' that you opened for business - then we don't need you in the USA.

Thus, why should a business have the right to take away the ability to protect yourself?

Again, to return to the point - I see a great deal of emotional responses and a great number of cognitive responses. You decide what to do - if you want to die for the moral principle and leave your family in the lurch - that is your choice. Sometimes you might want to do that but it is not a clear cut, yes or no decision.

 

[pcf]

I know almost everyone in the company I work for. I've been there 13 years. If I saw a disgruntled ex employee or just some nut job entering the building with a firearm, I would not just cover my ass, I would try and stop him/her. The good thing is that if I told my coworkers(that know I carry in the car)I'm getting my pistol, they would tell the front desk/supervisors. When the police do arrive they can differentiate me from the BG.

911: "what does the shooter look like"
Caller: "he's a 6 foot tall white male with blonde hair"
911: "what's he wearing"
Caller: "and someone told me there's another guy, that works here with a gun, his name is John Doe, and he's a 6 foot tall with blonde hair"

Did you ever play that game, as a kid, where you sit in a circle and pass a message around. You start off with the "the sun is yellow and the sky is blue" and end up with something like "It's funny when George Bush say Nu-cu-lar"

Add in "I'm going to die and never see my kids again" stress and do you want to trust someone to relay a message to someone to relay a message to the police?

The reason I ask, is because I work in a company that has 300+ employees. I, myself, work in an office of about 40.

Even without a firearm, if you can barricade yourself and your coworkers in your office, and keep them from doing anything stupid (like letting the gunman in), wouldn't saving 40 lives be quite an accomplishment?

 

[WolfMansDad]

What would you want a coworker to do?

When deciding what to do at work, ask yourself, "How would I want the guy next to me to act?" If you would want him to high-tail it to his car and sit the whole thing out, by all means do so yourself. If you would want him to help, knowing he had the means to do so, then do that yourself.

I discussed this with my employees after VT. We work in a gun-free zone, so even having one in the car is out of the question. Nevertheless, we have to stick together and take care of each other, by whatever means we can. When bad things happen, people have to pull together. Otherwise, we're all just targets. Organization is more important than armament.

 

[30 cal slob]

http://www.smartcarry.com

concealed means concealed

 

[evan price]

Here is a real-life equal to the above-described scenario (Stolen from Xavier's Blog)
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/

CCW Foils Murderous Bank Robbery
May 14th was like any other Monday morning for Chris Chappell of Bessemer, Alabama. He had visited his mother at Medical West hospital, dropped in at Wal-Mart and then made a quick stop at the local bank to get $40 in change to take to work. But another man, a man with a desperate purpose, closely followed Chappell into the bank that morning. The man was wearing a sky blue shirt, striped tie, khaki pants, baseball cap, sneakers and sunglasses. He had a cell phone pressed to his ear. He had tape on the bottoms of his shoes. He carried a Glock 9mm handgun, to aid him in his purpose. Chris Chappell handed a teller a few bills, and the teller collected coins for him. Suddenly, gunshots rang out. Chappell exited the bank, drew his CCW handgun, and took cover behind his sport utility vehicle. It was 9:04 AM. Inside the bank, unseen ruthless and deadly violence was occuring.

The robber started to escape out the front door of the bank, but retreated back inside when he saw the armed Chappell. He again looked out the door only to find Chappell drawn down on him. "I just held him in there as long as I could and if he would have came out I would have had to shoot. There's nothing I could have done, he was a mad man going crazy," said Chappell. Cornered, the killer then took a bank manager hostage. In the interim, law enforcement had arrived. Sheriff's deputies Ray Sorenson and Randy Davis were passing by when they spotted a woman running from the bank. She fell, rolled, got back up and kept running. The deputies, who serve outstanding warrants, quickly turned around to investigate.

Chappell alerted the deputies of his presence and intent when they arrived on the scene. The deputies called for back-up from the Bessemer police department. It was 9:06 AM. "That's when he comes out the door with a hostage," Chappell said, referring to the armed robber. "I'm telling him to get down, the cop's hollering to get down, and he doesn't know what to do because he's jerking the hostage around from side to side."

The armed criminal, William Merriweather Jr., stumbled and was shot in the groin by Deputy Alan Rhea. Even after being shot, the robber tried to crawl away with the moneybag. He did not release this grip on the bag of money until he was handcuffed and taken into custody. Bessemer police arrived on the scene at 9:09 AM. According to witnesses and police investigators, inside the bank the gunman shot bank teller Eva Lovelady Hudson in the face, killing her. He then continued firing down the line of tellers. He murdered bank teller Sheila Prevo. The killer wounded two other tellers, all the while demanding money, and forcing bank manager Myron Gooding to open the vault. Grabbing a bag of money, he started out the door of the bank, only to find Chappell waiting.

Merriweather is charged with capital murder in the deaths of the two bank tellers, and faces the death penalty. Merriweather is also accused of attempted murder in the wounding of Anita Gordon and LaToya Freeman, and kidnapping for taking the male bank manager hostage in his failed escape attempt.

Afterwards, Chris Chappell stated, "I was prepared to shoot, I don't think you had time to be scared....He never expected nobody else to have a gun, he thought he'd get away free. There wasn't really a chance to be scared at the time it was happening because it happened so fast." Chris Chappell and his ability to carry a concealed weapon was instrumental in the apprehension of this vicious murderer.

"It's certainly commendable," Jefferson County Sheriff's Sgt. Randy Christian said. "It's obvious he [Chappell] played a key role in keeping the guy there until we could get there. It's a great testament of someone willing to take action."

"He kept him from escaping, and he gave deputies time to get to the scene," Bill Veitch, chief assistant district attorney, told The Birmingham News in its moment-by-moment account of the robbery and arrest.

Bessemer Mayor Ed May, while calling Chappell a "good Samaritan and a brave individual," added that "I would not encourage anyone to do that."

Chappell, however, said he just followed his gut. "I know what's right and what's wrong. There wasn't nothing I could do differently. I'm always going to do what I think is right," Chappell said. The bank remains closed, with a bouquet of flowers at the door, and a contractor inside cleaning up.

Note, that the CCW holder didn't go charging in. He found concealment (or possibly cover), he waited for help, and he did not try to shoot it out with the robber.


One thing to ask ones-self about this type of situation is:

"If I didn't have a gun, would I still be gung-ho about charging in?"

If the answer is NO, then I submit that the gun is lending you false bravado.

If the answer is YES, then I submit that you are wanting to be a Hero. Heros Do Things. Heros get flags on their coffins and a rifle salute at the cemetary.

There's nothing wrong with dying a Hero if you do it for a justifiable cause. And hey, you might survive, right?

 

[M92FS]

by 98C5 : What would you do?

I would try my best to calm everybody in the office , tell everybody to take cover behind their desk.tell the person whom I can trust to lock the door after I went out to get my pistol. Return to the office and locked the door and stay low at ready to fire position. I dun think I would wanna go around to search for the gunman as I might be mistaken for the gunman and get shot by the police when they arrived.

 

[psyopspec]

A couple posters are onto something:

evan price said:

There's very few people in this world I would catch a bullet for and I don't work with any of them.

which is a more blunt way of saying what akodo outlined earlier:

It all depends on the situation. The fire department will tell you 'never run into a burning burning building' but we all here would do that to get our families out. Many of us here would do that if we thought the neighbor's kids were in there. Yet I don't think anyone here would say 'Run into a burning building.'

Always do the best you can with what resources are available to you. Look out for yourself, your family, and those you care about. In all honesty, even with those posting here that would say "screw'em" to the idea of putting it all on the line to protect fellow co-workers, I'd rather have a highroader next to me in a time of crisis. Even if some don't have the collective's interest at heart, I think the people who bother to consider scenarios like the one outlined are more likely to take action, which by proxy saves more lives than dying in place.

For me, if I've got a handgun on me, barricade in place for the protection of self/those around me. If I'm unarmed I'll run for the car, and at that point I can stick the key in the ignition and GTF outta Dodge or pop the trunk and grab the M-4. This is where the difference between coworkers/friends comes into play.

 

[GEM]

Evan - what good did it do to force the bank robber back into a location where there are innocents who could still be shot or held hostage?

If the armed robber is leaving, let him leave.

Go help the innocent.

Capturing him is irrelevant. Do that later.

Your purpose is to prevent grievous bodily harm.

The individual acted instinctively and might be called a hero. As a rational person, I think he was foolish.

He did not stop the shooting and increased risk.

 

[atomd]

I'd like to think I know what I would do. There's a lot of variables though. I think if I had gone to my car to get my gun, I would then take a position that would keep me relatively safe but also allow me to become sort of a barrier between the bad guy and my fleeing co-workers (assuming most people were trying to escape) if he decided to chase people down and shoot them. I wouldn't go Johnny Rambo, scouring the place looking to kill or capture some lunatic. Say people ran out the front door through the lobby. I would keep an eye on the front door or main hallway to make sure he didn't come outside and start shooting people. That way I could use a car or something as cover and limit the threat to myself while still being able to have the upper hand if a gunfight ensued. I'd like to play defense as best as I could.

If the situation changed I'm not sure how I would react to be honest.