JohnBT
Member
"Military rifles are made for young people after all."
Young people who march everyday. Long marches.
Young people who march everyday. Long marches.
I don't get sporterizing...
- Thread starter HDCamel
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mike.h
Member
dirtyjim said [there are only a handful of milsurps i wouldn't sporterize but the other 50 million or so i'm planing on whacking in the head and gutting out before i die.
if those collectors really cared about saving their precious milsurps from my workbench they would try a little harder to out bid me.]
I also had a mauser with a double headed eagle on the received that was lost while I was over seas. The only thing I remember about it: I traded a hunting dog for it. Never got to finish it. :-(
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if those collectors really cared about saving their precious milsurps from my workbench they would try a little harder to out bid me.]
I also had a mauser with a double headed eagle on the received that was lost while I was over seas. The only thing I remember about it: I traded a hunting dog for it. Never got to finish it. :-(
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35 Whelen
Member
"Collector" is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. My rifles are tools. If it's collectible, with a few exceptions, I have no use for it. My one exception being a super, super accurate 1903A3 in as-issued condition. It will stay as-is in hopes of using it in a Vintage rifle match some day.
Another thing to consider is this: most folks today are part of what's referred to as the "Microwave Society" in that when they want something, they want it now. So, they run to the computer or local firearms-stocking store, credit card in hand, and order what they want. That's O.K., but said folks need to understand why some of use convert military rifles.
I personally take infinite satisfaction from building exactly what I want from an old neglected rifle. I love Scout rifles, so I bought one of these:
...and turned it into this:
I wouldn't trade it for 1000 Steyr, Ruger or Savage Scout rifles because I did it myself. Likewise, I bought one of these:
...and as soon as I get a few more coats of Linseed oil on it, the scope and front sight mounted, it'll be a sweet little Scout rifle built for my wife...with my very own hands.
To each his own, right?
35W
Abel
Member
This is the best thread ever. I think there's another one that shows Bubba jobs that is close, but this one has shaped into a real treat.
More eye candy please.
More eye candy please.
RevGeo
Member
I've sporterized several '93, '95 and '98 Mausers over the last 40 years and I think they make a nice rifle and I don't have to justify my work to anyone. I love the look of a nicely done sporterized military rifle. I have a set of NRA Sporter Springfields - .22 and 30-06 - that were sporterized by the armory and they are beautiful guns.
The only reason I have these guns is for hunting and I find a sporterized rifle much, much cooler than a modern factory rifle. The actions on these guns were built by master gunsmiths who really knew what they were doing. The barrels are works of art and show the time and work put into them. Many German gunsmiths have built beautiful sporters built on military actions and if they are good enough for those cuckoo clock-building dudes they are good enough for me. And money, or value or whatever has nothing to do with it.
George
The only reason I have these guns is for hunting and I find a sporterized rifle much, much cooler than a modern factory rifle. The actions on these guns were built by master gunsmiths who really knew what they were doing. The barrels are works of art and show the time and work put into them. Many German gunsmiths have built beautiful sporters built on military actions and if they are good enough for those cuckoo clock-building dudes they are good enough for me. And money, or value or whatever has nothing to do with it.
George
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ColtPythonElite
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My hat's off to RC for doing nice work and holding on to her all these decades.
bigedp51
member
I find this love-hate relationship between the "collectors" and "shooters" funny and sad at the same time. For over 10 years I collected nothing but milsurps and I just sold many of them off and used the money to buy "new" rifles that don't have frosted and pitted bores from corrosive ammunition.
So I'm a "collector-shooter" who likes old milsurps but I would never carry the heavy beasts up and down the sides of a mountain.
Now the funny part..................The NRA and the American Rifleman magazine showed us all how to be a Bubba and cut up a American Classic
Don't ask me why a collectors favorite 30-06 was one he "butchered" to make his favorite "rain gun" so his new rifles wouldn't get all wet. The shame of spending $45.00 on a Springfield 03A3 and turning it into a practical hunting rifle by getting rid of several pounds of excess wood and metal.
They were cheap, they were plentiful and they were the best deal on the planet for an 18 year old kids first rifle. DO NOT call me bubba!
There are stock P51 Mustangs and then there is bigedp51, light and faster with no excess baggage.
So I'm a "collector-shooter" who likes old milsurps but I would never carry the heavy beasts up and down the sides of a mountain.
Now the funny part..................The NRA and the American Rifleman magazine showed us all how to be a Bubba and cut up a American Classic
Don't ask me why a collectors favorite 30-06 was one he "butchered" to make his favorite "rain gun" so his new rifles wouldn't get all wet. The shame of spending $45.00 on a Springfield 03A3 and turning it into a practical hunting rifle by getting rid of several pounds of excess wood and metal.
They were cheap, they were plentiful and they were the best deal on the planet for an 18 year old kids first rifle. DO NOT call me bubba!
There are stock P51 Mustangs and then there is bigedp51, light and faster with no excess baggage.
1KPerDay
Member
Nicely put.
Kendal Black
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I think collectors should thank sporterizers and encourage their efforts. It is largely due to tinkering gun cranks that a pristine as-issued rifle is worth anything at all.
mike.h
Member
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152489&d=1320978645
Pretty sweet that you left the front blade on. I still have my step dad 03 with the blade on it. (Basic reason why I built mine) I was a little disappointed that my GS took it off, but is was because he "accuratized the barrel". No complaints to this day. The old guys knew what they were doing.
Carry On
Pretty sweet that you left the front blade on. I still have my step dad 03 with the blade on it. (Basic reason why I built mine) I was a little disappointed that my GS took it off, but is was because he "accuratized the barrel". No complaints to this day. The old guys knew what they were doing.
Carry On
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Thats a matter of opinion and an uneducated one at that obviously. Just 2 weeks ago I was offered $700 for one of my "bubba" .303brit's! I've had several offers on most all of my "bubba" rifles. When you know what you are doing and do a nice job on them and make them shoot better than ANY original configuration of that model you have something that is worth twice as much as some safe queen.
You collectors can get bent out of shape all you want, but do not sit there on your soap boxes and try to tell me what I should and should not do with a TOOL that I purchase. If you guys want to be re-tarded and spend money on firearms just to lock them up in a safe and never fire them then by all means go for it. I like to USE the tools I buy and no tool fits me better than one that I make to fit my exact dimensions and purposes.
If one of you collectors can show me an action made today that doesn't cost $500 just for the damn action that is as strong and reliable as a German K98 please do so. Considering 95% of todays bolt action rifles are based off of, or just flat out rip offs of the K98 I think you would be hard pressed to do so.
30Cal
Member
Oh man, that Krag! That's beautiful!
MachIVshooter
Member
I like box stock milsurps. I also like nicely done sporters.
What I can't stand is when some idiot bothches the job and the resulting piece of junk is useless as a sporter and has no value as a collectible.
I'm always on the lookout for a '93 or '96 Mauser with good metal that I won't feel bad about sporting out. A 7x57 Carbine with a nice full-length custom stock is something I'd love to have. Don't need it with a 6mm Rem, .25-06, 8mm Mag and .375 RUM to cover all my game gettin' needs, but I still want one.
What I can't stand is when some idiot bothches the job and the resulting piece of junk is useless as a sporter and has no value as a collectible.
I'm always on the lookout for a '93 or '96 Mauser with good metal that I won't feel bad about sporting out. A 7x57 Carbine with a nice full-length custom stock is something I'd love to have. Don't need it with a 6mm Rem, .25-06, 8mm Mag and .375 RUM to cover all my game gettin' needs, but I still want one.
It's not like I hate sporterizers, per se. I'm also not really interested in collector's value either. I've just never experienced any noticeable benefit to sporterizing a milsurp.
It's a good enough tool as is. Why waste time, effort, and money to make it into an ever-so-slightly better one? I've hunted with a 1903, a couple SMLEs, a K98k, and an Arisaka 99 and I've never once thought "this gun would be SO much better if it had x..."
It's a good enough tool as is. Why waste time, effort, and money to make it into an ever-so-slightly better one? I've hunted with a 1903, a couple SMLEs, a K98k, and an Arisaka 99 and I've never once thought "this gun would be SO much better if it had x..."
Twmaster
Member
I really love it when these threads pop-up semi regularly....
To me there is room for both camps.
For example. I'd likely mercilessly beat somebody if they took an all original matching number Arisaka Type 38 and sporterized it.
On the other hand, many surplus rifles are mixmasters with no matching numbers, missing parts and possibly worn out old shooters. Returning an old warhorse like that to shooter status as a sporter is a -good- thing. My Type 38 is a mixmaster bubba sporter. It's the one rifle I like shooting the most. I might even get a new Monte Carlo stock for her someday.
Geez calm down folks.
To me there is room for both camps.
For example. I'd likely mercilessly beat somebody if they took an all original matching number Arisaka Type 38 and sporterized it.
On the other hand, many surplus rifles are mixmasters with no matching numbers, missing parts and possibly worn out old shooters. Returning an old warhorse like that to shooter status as a sporter is a -good- thing. My Type 38 is a mixmaster bubba sporter. It's the one rifle I like shooting the most. I might even get a new Monte Carlo stock for her someday.
Geez calm down folks.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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HD, My very first Milsurp was a .303brit #4 MarkII. I took it straight to the range the day I got it. I replaced a garage door opener that had been lightning struck for a very solid customer. I told the guy no charge since it only took me 20 minutes to do it and they were very steady customers. He said NO WAY and brought me that old brit. I tried to say no but he insisted. So take it to the range and see that it shoots pretty darn good for a full fledged all original brit. I hunted with it the next week on a doe hunt and dropped 2 running doe with her that day. After deer season, I got it in my head that I was going to improve this thing because it was so darned heavy. Now, before I started on this weapon, it would hold just over 1 MOA and weighed in at a hefty 9+ pounds. After I was done with it it holds well UNDER MOA and even with the addition of a 3-9x40 scope it was under 8 pounds. It swings to bear much better, has a much cleaner trigger with vastly improved lock time, and just looks purdy! I wouldn't call it "ever so slightly better". I took a good shooter and made her a great shooter. One that anyone would be proud to call their own.
Most people have an over-inflated idea of how good they are at something, so, most of the time, anything you do to something out of the factory makes it worth less and uglier. Even some of the rifles in this thread looked better to start with than after their owning was finished with them.
Cars are the same way. I own some classic cars. The one I take to shows is getting more noticed now because there are no originals left. Everyone has jacked up the rears, candy appled the paint, cut up the dash for a radio, thrown out the original engine for some big block, and cloned it into a muscle car.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 99% of us are not gunsmiths and never will be. Yes, it is your gun, and you are free to do with it as you wish, but you are also free to reap the consequences of what you sow; diminished value of both the gun, and your standing in the minds of others.
Cars are the same way. I own some classic cars. The one I take to shows is getting more noticed now because there are no originals left. Everyone has jacked up the rears, candy appled the paint, cut up the dash for a radio, thrown out the original engine for some big block, and cloned it into a muscle car.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 99% of us are not gunsmiths and never will be. Yes, it is your gun, and you are free to do with it as you wish, but you are also free to reap the consequences of what you sow; diminished value of both the gun, and your standing in the minds of others.
Cob
Member
Most of the time, it's the fact that you can purchase a cheap milsurp rifle for little money, then have some fun with tinkering with the gun as a project with little investment. It brings a sense of satisfaction that you have just bought another GUN, and can do with it what you want, not having to answer to anybody else, except to the voice of your own creativity.
If you don't get it, don't worry about it. don't knock it, Be Happy and go do your own thing...
I purchased a Mosin last year for $70.00 (actually bought 3 of them).
I then made a custom walnut stock for it, glass bedded the action, dropped in a Timney trigger, drilled and tapped the receive for scope mount, then cut off the bolt handle, and welded on a US Military Butter knife handle for a replacement... I even bought a checkering kit, and have been learning to "checker" the diamond patttern on the grips. I'm almost finished with it, and enjoyed the time i spent tinkering on it. I did it for the same reason that i put model cars together as a kid, and built a couple barns/shop as an adult...
It's about having Fun, and doing something that I like. I personally hate Tattoos, and wonder why anyone would waste the money on something so hideous and permanent... In a round about way, i see the two as remotely related... Only thing is if i don't like the gun, it's not permanenetly attached to my body
If you don't get it, don't worry about it. don't knock it, Be Happy and go do your own thing...
I purchased a Mosin last year for $70.00 (actually bought 3 of them).
I then made a custom walnut stock for it, glass bedded the action, dropped in a Timney trigger, drilled and tapped the receive for scope mount, then cut off the bolt handle, and welded on a US Military Butter knife handle for a replacement... I even bought a checkering kit, and have been learning to "checker" the diamond patttern on the grips. I'm almost finished with it, and enjoyed the time i spent tinkering on it. I did it for the same reason that i put model cars together as a kid, and built a couple barns/shop as an adult...
It's about having Fun, and doing something that I like. I personally hate Tattoos, and wonder why anyone would waste the money on something so hideous and permanent... In a round about way, i see the two as remotely related... Only thing is if i don't like the gun, it's not permanenetly attached to my body
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Sergei Mosin
Member
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$700 for a Bubba'd Enfield? Wow, P.T. Barnum was right - there really is a sucker born every minute. Well, maybe it was a really nice scope.
Who's bent out of shape here? I don't recall telling you what you should or shouldn't do with your guns. Your property, your call. I choose to keep mine in original condition, display them, shoot them, and enjoy them as I see fit. You can do whatever you want with your stuff. I may believe it to be an act of historical vandalism, but I don't think you care about that anyway.
As for your "re-tarded" comment, I'm confused as to what's the tool here - your gun, or you?
Freedom fighter,
Turning a 9 lbs. 1-ish MOA gun into an 8 lbs. sub-MOA gun doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me... Not for the ranges I hunted at anyway.
Maybe it's more my hunting habits than anything else. I did learn to hunt with a bow first...
Turning a 9 lbs. 1-ish MOA gun into an 8 lbs. sub-MOA gun doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me... Not for the ranges I hunted at anyway.
Maybe it's more my hunting habits than anything else. I did learn to hunt with a bow first...
morcey2
Member
The way I see it, there are 4 levels of guns in this discussion.
1. Bone-stock milsurps. I've got several of them. As a history buff, I love them. And a few of them are really good shooters. Even the worst are at least average shooters. These are the ones that I enjoy shooting most. I especially love the history to be found in Finnish Mosin's.
2. Bubba specials. Bubba never made it out of gunsmithing school. Heck, he never made it out of primary school. He cuts off the stock, tosses the handguard, shortens the barrel, maybe splices a recoil pad on. If he gets really ambitious, he drills them there holes for the telerskopik scope. Sometimes it's even pointed in the same direction as the barrel. Occasionally, they'll glue something on the wrist of the stock to look like a pistol grip stock. One of the two that I have is a spanish M44 in 8x57 w/ a cheap scope. It shoots quite well for what it is and I'd trust it out to 250 yards w/ handloads on deer. The other is a Argentine 1909 that had the chamber reamed out to 30-06 and had the barrel shortened about 5 inches and the bolt handle bent, sortof. Without fail, these usually have the military barrels on them. Sometimes you find one that is just SOOOOO ugly that you have to have it. If you're lucky and you can find one that hasn't been drilled and tapped and still has the full barrel on it, it can be restored to be in category #1. That's how I got one of my 1903's.
3. Sporterized rifles. These are usually in a sporter stock, not a chopped down military stock and have a professional job of scope mounting. The barrel is usually still the military barrel. Sometimes the metal is refinished and they look really quite nice. Depending on the condition of the barrel, they can range from real tack-drivers to pull-the-trigger-and-pray-drivers. I've got 1 of them. It's a 1910 Mexican mauser in 7x57 in a ram-line stock w/ a Barska scope. It shoots really well, but will be getting a new stock in february since I hate the feel of the stock. The Spanish Mauser mentioned in #2 will be in this category shortly also.
4. Full-on customs. What, in my mind, separates these from #3 is the barrel. The barrel is new and has a better chamber/throat/leade than the military barrels. They can range from Adams & Bennett cheapies to custom one-off unobtanium plated virgin carbon fiber-wrapped stainless steel in 7.62311x43.829 Ackley Improved PPC Benchrest Roberts. When built correctly, they will rival or beat any production rifle out there. I have one. It's a custom built on a RIA 1903 receiver and a custom made stock w/ a cut-rifled barrel. I inherited it from my grandfather and that's the one that everyone talks about when they say "from my cold, dead hands."
At this point in life, I don't really see any point in turning something from #1 into any of the other three, especially #2. (It's #2 for a reason). When a used Savage can be had for $200 - 300 and is reasonably accurate, there isn't any reason for it. Now, if I come across one in category 2 or 3 that can be turned into category 1 or 4, I'll do it.
Matt
1. Bone-stock milsurps. I've got several of them. As a history buff, I love them. And a few of them are really good shooters. Even the worst are at least average shooters. These are the ones that I enjoy shooting most. I especially love the history to be found in Finnish Mosin's.
2. Bubba specials. Bubba never made it out of gunsmithing school. Heck, he never made it out of primary school. He cuts off the stock, tosses the handguard, shortens the barrel, maybe splices a recoil pad on. If he gets really ambitious, he drills them there holes for the telerskopik scope. Sometimes it's even pointed in the same direction as the barrel. Occasionally, they'll glue something on the wrist of the stock to look like a pistol grip stock. One of the two that I have is a spanish M44 in 8x57 w/ a cheap scope. It shoots quite well for what it is and I'd trust it out to 250 yards w/ handloads on deer. The other is a Argentine 1909 that had the chamber reamed out to 30-06 and had the barrel shortened about 5 inches and the bolt handle bent, sortof. Without fail, these usually have the military barrels on them. Sometimes you find one that is just SOOOOO ugly that you have to have it. If you're lucky and you can find one that hasn't been drilled and tapped and still has the full barrel on it, it can be restored to be in category #1. That's how I got one of my 1903's.
3. Sporterized rifles. These are usually in a sporter stock, not a chopped down military stock and have a professional job of scope mounting. The barrel is usually still the military barrel. Sometimes the metal is refinished and they look really quite nice. Depending on the condition of the barrel, they can range from real tack-drivers to pull-the-trigger-and-pray-drivers. I've got 1 of them. It's a 1910 Mexican mauser in 7x57 in a ram-line stock w/ a Barska scope. It shoots really well, but will be getting a new stock in february since I hate the feel of the stock. The Spanish Mauser mentioned in #2 will be in this category shortly also.
4. Full-on customs. What, in my mind, separates these from #3 is the barrel. The barrel is new and has a better chamber/throat/leade than the military barrels. They can range from Adams & Bennett cheapies to custom one-off unobtanium plated virgin carbon fiber-wrapped stainless steel in 7.62311x43.829 Ackley Improved PPC Benchrest Roberts. When built correctly, they will rival or beat any production rifle out there. I have one. It's a custom built on a RIA 1903 receiver and a custom made stock w/ a cut-rifled barrel. I inherited it from my grandfather and that's the one that everyone talks about when they say "from my cold, dead hands."
At this point in life, I don't really see any point in turning something from #1 into any of the other three, especially #2. (It's #2 for a reason). When a used Savage can be had for $200 - 300 and is reasonably accurate, there isn't any reason for it. Now, if I come across one in category 2 or 3 that can be turned into category 1 or 4, I'll do it.
Matt
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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HD? 9 pounds to UNDER 8 pounds WITH the additional weight of a scope is a pretty good weight loss there bud. And from right at 1.4 MOA to just under .72 MOA is a very significant improvement. I rarely fire on deer beyond 200 yards myself so pinpoint accuracy is not NEEDED in the field but it is WANTED by me. I demand the best out of everything I own. If it can be improved, I try my dead level best to improve it.
I've seen very well sporterized Enfields going for MUCH more than that. I was using the term "bubba'd" sarcastically Sergei. They are by no means haggard up hack jobs. Walnut stocks with ebony cap, glass bedded barrel trimmed down a smidge but only to get it recrowned to a good 11* hunting crown. Can-West trigger replacement then hand rubbed 12 applications of deep walnut stain with 3 coats of uro. All lovingly done by my own hands.
I've seen lessor rifles go for more than $700.
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