Dr. Sandman
Member
I'd wager that, nine times out of ten, this was not an interview. I sure would have noted their license number though and I would be extra vigilant over the next few weeks. Just some thoughts for future improvement...
I think I passed an "interview".
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Zombiphobia
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The problem with that theory is that too many thugs get off on knowing they're scaring/intimidating someone before they attack. In other words.. most of them aren't smart enough to be incognito.
ZeSpectre
Member
In my personal experience if your "guts" are telling you something is wrong then you should listen. So you drive past your house, maybe spend a few extra minutes observing your situation. What's the harm in that? If you were wrong, well you were still safe. If you were right and ignored the situation....well the newspapers are full of those stories.
CheapFuneral
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Driving past is a great option if available like it sound his was. At my old house I have done this. That being said if I was followed now I personally could not do that. I live in the city all roads near mine are quite busy so hard to say this person is following me until I turn into my neighbor hood which is 3 dead end streets on a small dark road. In this case I would have done as u did pull in, but the second they pull in my drive way(and I know this is not sound advice, in fact I'd say it's bad advice but it's what I would do.) I'd have stepped out gun drawn asking *** they were doing. My neighbors are quite nosey and I'd expect 911 to be called if I raised my voice in my yard. Open carry is legal on private property here and I would have shown with force they pulled in the wrong drive way.
JustinJ
Member
Millions of other americans somehow make into old age without being excessively cautious.
He did also note that many other people drive that way in his area. What i don't get however is how high beams limited the OP's ability to see if it was during the day? Also, if the other car was following so closely would he not be turning in immediately behind the OP? He said he saw the car turn in after he stopped and began to unfasten his belt so the car must not have been that close.
What brings you to that assumption? If the hypothetical criminals had singled him out for a robbery aggressive following would be just about the last way to get him to stop his car in order to facilitate said robbery.
Nor can I see any reason to do so. But that wasn't the recommendation.
One more time, from Lee Lapin's Post #17:
That has been my practice for years. More often than not, the 'follower" was not following; sometimes it has not been possible to tell, as the other driver did not continue to follow. On one occasion, I led someone right into the police station parking lot.
That was before cell phones. Today, I would call the police.
Slowing down putting a cell phone to one's ear (to make a point--we use hans-freee devices) can ve an effective actic.
Driftertank
Member
There are many, many people who have never been the victim of a violent crime. Some of those people have only escaped being the victim of a violent crime because their potential attackers didn't feel the situation presented itself as giving them a good chance at escaping repurcussions. Many of these potential victims will never know how lucky they were.
I've had my home broken into. I've heard, and been prepared to repel, an attempted home invasion while i was home.I've personally been the victim of an assault & battery, in a crowded parking lot surrounded by friends. I didn't know my assailant, but he wanted to pick a fight and i was the biggest guy there. He broke my nose, punched two of my friends, then fled with an armed accomplice.
Some of what some people call paranoia, I call experience.
I've had my home broken into. I've heard, and been prepared to repel, an attempted home invasion while i was home.I've personally been the victim of an assault & battery, in a crowded parking lot surrounded by friends. I didn't know my assailant, but he wanted to pick a fight and i was the biggest guy there. He broke my nose, punched two of my friends, then fled with an armed accomplice.
Some of what some people call paranoia, I call experience.
sidheshooter
Member
^^^Even more curious are those who have never experienced violent crime, but who know enough of the warning signs to actually know how close the asteroid passed to earth...
Many, many years ago in Seattle, I was walking down by pike's place market with 3 vacationing ballerinas, acting as their guide. Very dense crowds, a busy weekend day. Just up across the street from the main southern entrance to the market (the one all the tourists like to take pictures of)
I locked eyes with this guy who made all the hair on the back of my neck go up; cheap gym clothes, cheap shades, no other jewelry/bags, absolutely amazing physical condition, and *nobody* home behind the eyes. Just exuding long-time career felon; the kind with half a lifetime inside a cage.
He broke eye contact with me just long enough to take in the 3 late teen/early 20s dancers that I was stewarding at a glance, and then started to look back at me and shift his weight.
Too late: I used to walk around there all the time, even at night with my dojo buddies, and that was the first time that I have ever looked at someone and been positive that I (in my 20s) *couldn't* give them a run for their money. Despite a near-full time martial arts fetish, I knew in my gut that this guy was totally out of my league, so by the time his eyes swept back to meet mine again, I was already half way to the entrance of a busy store, pushing three visiting dancers into a ball in front of me.
Once inside the store, I looked out the window to see the hardcase cross the street, go up to some other guy standing outside the newsstand farting around with a book, and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Mr prison Iron sprinted off down the hill, and the other guy eventually left on a stretcher.
Point is, all those other people on the crowded sidewalk across the street walked by, with and around Mr strong-arm too. No idea how many of them picked up on any bad vibes, and no way to know. Another place, and I might be the one walking past someone like that and never knowing it, since I am (regrettably) not in the regular habit of walking around big cities with multiple young, athletic women in tow. (maybe in the next life, knock on wood).
Cooper said 1-2 percent of the population, yes? Sounds about right to me.
[
Many, many years ago in Seattle, I was walking down by pike's place market with 3 vacationing ballerinas, acting as their guide. Very dense crowds, a busy weekend day. Just up across the street from the main southern entrance to the market (the one all the tourists like to take pictures of)
I locked eyes with this guy who made all the hair on the back of my neck go up; cheap gym clothes, cheap shades, no other jewelry/bags, absolutely amazing physical condition, and *nobody* home behind the eyes. Just exuding long-time career felon; the kind with half a lifetime inside a cage.
He broke eye contact with me just long enough to take in the 3 late teen/early 20s dancers that I was stewarding at a glance, and then started to look back at me and shift his weight.
Too late: I used to walk around there all the time, even at night with my dojo buddies, and that was the first time that I have ever looked at someone and been positive that I (in my 20s) *couldn't* give them a run for their money. Despite a near-full time martial arts fetish, I knew in my gut that this guy was totally out of my league, so by the time his eyes swept back to meet mine again, I was already half way to the entrance of a busy store, pushing three visiting dancers into a ball in front of me.
Once inside the store, I looked out the window to see the hardcase cross the street, go up to some other guy standing outside the newsstand farting around with a book, and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Mr prison Iron sprinted off down the hill, and the other guy eventually left on a stretcher.
Point is, all those other people on the crowded sidewalk across the street walked by, with and around Mr strong-arm too. No idea how many of them picked up on any bad vibes, and no way to know. Another place, and I might be the one walking past someone like that and never knowing it, since I am (regrettably) not in the regular habit of walking around big cities with multiple young, athletic women in tow. (maybe in the next life, knock on wood).
Cooper said 1-2 percent of the population, yes? Sounds about right to me.
[
Driftertank
Member
As an aside, one of the people i knew, knew who the guy was who attacked me. The other two people who got injured that night were just trying to calm the guy down when he attacked them. When the police got there they got his name and the name of the guy whose car they fled in from bystanders. Several people noted that the driver had a gun in the car, openly visible.
Nobody reacted aggressively towards the assailant, only tried to pacify him. I learned he had recently had gotten out of prison for drug charges, and was fond of cocaine. I was told that when the police went to his house the next day to arrest him, he shot himself.
You can't always avoid confrontation, but just because you've never been singled out as a victim doesn't mean wariness is the same as paranoia. I'm 6' tall and a muscular 250 or so pounds. IOW, somewhat imposing. Had no reason to believe someone would want to pick a fight with me. I was STILL singled out randomly as a victim.
Nobody reacted aggressively towards the assailant, only tried to pacify him. I learned he had recently had gotten out of prison for drug charges, and was fond of cocaine. I was told that when the police went to his house the next day to arrest him, he shot himself.
You can't always avoid confrontation, but just because you've never been singled out as a victim doesn't mean wariness is the same as paranoia. I'm 6' tall and a muscular 250 or so pounds. IOW, somewhat imposing. Had no reason to believe someone would want to pick a fight with me. I was STILL singled out randomly as a victim.
It was late afternoon, but it was a really gray, dreary, rain-filled day. Dark clouds had been overhead all day, and it was just dark enough that the headlights on high-beam impeded my vision into the car.
To be truthful, people drive like that all the time around here. It's a 35mph road - when driving it, I try to stay around 40. Most people like to do 50 or so, so I'm used to people coming up behind me. It happens at least once or twice a week. The headlights put me on my guard, but not enough to warrant driving to the next turn, around the loop, and back to my house - that would have added an extra five miles or more to the trip. In hindsight, if I knew that these guys were going to follow me into my driveway, I would have taken the time, and taken the guff from Mrs. Ceetee (who already thinks I'm way too suspicious).
As soon as I saw them pulling in behind me, my mind ran through the options: to get out and wait on them, to get out and confront them, or to sit tight and be ready to take whatever action the ongoing situation warranted. I felt that if I got out of the car for any reason, that could have provoked them, and gotten me into a situation I would rather not been in. I also felt that if they chose to exit their car, I could have easily gotten distance and responded to a perceived attack (my driveway is a good hundred yards long, and this event took place in the first ten or fifteen yards of it).
And no matter what, I didn't know (and still don't) if they were indeed bad guys on a mission, or just lost. The fact that they passed up a whole bunch of other driveways just to pull into mine makes me think that they weren't simply trying to turn around. I could be wrong, though. Mrs. Ceetee thinks I am - a strange attitude for a retired deputy sheriff to hold. I'm not too worried about them returning to my house in the future - active alarms, grown German Shepherds, and a ticked-off Mrs. Ceetee are nothing to sneeze at.
I do thank everyone for their constructive criticisms. We only get one run through this life, and I'm always up for learning something new.
JustinJ
Member
Huh, strange, i thought this was forum where all participants get to post their point of view. It never occurred to me that the right opinions are only the ones in agreement with those of the mods. Heck, why not just change the format so that people post questions and you and whoever you see fit answer the them?
Based on the OP it does not sound at all to me like he was being followed which is why i called it a random car. But don't worry, in spite of your snarky comment i've taken your advice to heart. I'm actually working on a batcave style rear entrance to my home but just to be extra cautious i'll only use it when the street has been empty for at least 15 minutes. Oh, gota run, the workers are here to install the fake boulder/garage door. Something just dawned on me though. The contractor will know about my secret entrance. Should i let him live or just keep him locked up in the basement after work is complete?
ceetee, do you recall if the car behind you backed out and went in the reverse direction? He may have just decided to turn around and it sounds like there aren't many places on the road to do so. Also, driveways on country roads sometimes can be hard to distinguish from public roads when the houses they lead to aren't in view.
Kevin Rohrer
Member
I'd say there was a 75% chance they were looking to car-jack you and/or rob you of your personal possessions--and I say that irregardless of their skin color. If so, they have no interest in your home; criminals specialize (most aren't smart enough to commit more than one type of crime).
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
JustinJ, get over yourself. No one is trying to shut you up or censor your opinion. Cut the sob story, or go play that card on democraticunderground. Your persecution complex around here is getting pretty tiring.
You are correct. Within a few limitations, that is true.
The car pulled into his driveway behind him. The question seems to be one of whether he should have been sufficiently suspicious to try to find out whether he was being followed before allowing himself and his spouse to be put into a vulnerable position.
He evidently was not.
Not being able to visualize the situation, I cannot really criticize him.
See the OP--yes, they went back the way they came.
The OP has already stated "The fact that they passed up a whole bunch of other driveways just to pull into mine makes me think that they weren't simply trying to turn around".
I think it is usually advisable to try to avoid using anyone's driveway to turn around unless one has found himself on a dead end street or a very long, unfamiliar rural road. The latter could have been the case here, but it's not really a very good idea to pull into anyone's driveway behind them at night to turn around. Doing so would most probably cause some degree of alarm, and one could put oneself at risk.
Onward Allusion
Member
...but YOU were the one who call such actions PARANOID... When someone follows your car into your driveway and you're weirded out by it is not paranoia.
Really???
Think about this for a moment, please. Of all the driveways, the guys following decided to pull into Ceetee's and just sit there? If this doesn't sound out of the ordinary, I'm not sure what does. Could it have been something completely innocent? Of course! But to call such behavior paranoid? No way.
Kevin Rohrer
Member
And in my neck-of-the-woods, based on my true experience, this is 99% accurate and not an assumption.
leadcounsel
member
Uh, no. You didn't pass the interview. They were either not criminals or they lost interest.
Based upon the fact that you identified them as suspicious BEFORE they followed you into the driveway, you should have driven somewhere else. Based upon the random fact that they happened to turn into your driveway behind you, they had some nefarious intentions. Possibly a road rage incident you weren't aware of? Maybe you cut them off unknowingly? Didn't use your blinker? Etc.
But you failed -
1. You led them to your home.
2. You sat in a parked car on the "X" for a period of time. At their mercy. Had the wanted to get out and flank you, they had the advantage. You were stationary, outnumbered, potentially outgunned, and with your back to them.
I'd say you got lucky.
Putting myself in a position sitting in a driveway with a car and two men in it, parked behind me, if I really felt this was an interview, I would either drive forward farther and leave the car running and tell my wife to put her head down, get out of the drivers door, open the rear passenger door for partial concealment, take an aggressive/offensive posture, and get ready to draw my pistol and react to their actions. If I see any guns, I react to defend myself from the concealment of the car.
In the future, drive on to another location. If the threat is real, drive to the police station. Have your gun drawn and ready.
I've on occassion been followed for a short distance by some angry guy from some perceived 'front' to him on the road. Maybe I did something thoughtless, maybe not. Point is, in those occassions that I've been followed, I don't drive home. I take many turns, some unexpected (luring them into the left lane only to quickly move over to the off ramp on the highway, driving through a yellow stoplight, etc.). Also, if I have a gun with me, that comes out to the ready - but be careful to retain control so that hitting the brakes or whatnot doesn't send the handgun free in the car.
Based upon the fact that you identified them as suspicious BEFORE they followed you into the driveway, you should have driven somewhere else. Based upon the random fact that they happened to turn into your driveway behind you, they had some nefarious intentions. Possibly a road rage incident you weren't aware of? Maybe you cut them off unknowingly? Didn't use your blinker? Etc.
But you failed -
1. You led them to your home.
2. You sat in a parked car on the "X" for a period of time. At their mercy. Had the wanted to get out and flank you, they had the advantage. You were stationary, outnumbered, potentially outgunned, and with your back to them.
I'd say you got lucky.
Putting myself in a position sitting in a driveway with a car and two men in it, parked behind me, if I really felt this was an interview, I would either drive forward farther and leave the car running and tell my wife to put her head down, get out of the drivers door, open the rear passenger door for partial concealment, take an aggressive/offensive posture, and get ready to draw my pistol and react to their actions. If I see any guns, I react to defend myself from the concealment of the car.
In the future, drive on to another location. If the threat is real, drive to the police station. Have your gun drawn and ready.
I've on occassion been followed for a short distance by some angry guy from some perceived 'front' to him on the road. Maybe I did something thoughtless, maybe not. Point is, in those occassions that I've been followed, I don't drive home. I take many turns, some unexpected (luring them into the left lane only to quickly move over to the off ramp on the highway, driving through a yellow stoplight, etc.). Also, if I have a gun with me, that comes out to the ready - but be careful to retain control so that hitting the brakes or whatnot doesn't send the handgun free in the car.
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You don't want to pass The Interview: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/interview.htm
I would say ceetee did OK, though if he was really in condition orange (as he says in the OP), driving by his home to a safer location would have been better. But I'd still give him credit for being in Orange in the first place, given his account of the drive home.
As for staying put, that was probably the right move (assuming these really were bad guys). If he had gotten out, he would have been unable to get himself and his wife out of there. And they would have been separated. If he had driven further onto his property, the BGs may have seen that as sufficient reason for ceetee to pass the interview. (If you're still confused, read the link above).
Staying put as he did may have been the reason ceetee did fail the interview, though perhaps accidentally. See my comments in Post #19 for what I think really happened (again, assuming ceetee was really being interviewed).
I have a number of 'black sheep' in the family. To my knowledge, most of them (and their associates) have engaged in petty theft, shoplifting, grand theft auto, burglary (residential and/or commercial), drug use, drug trafficing, assault, vandalism, check fraud... you name it, really. In my experience, the average criminal is not a 'one trick pony.'
And before anyone gets on my case about associating with such monsters, 1) I didn't get to choose the family I was born into, and 2) I haven't talked to any of them in over 10 years. For all I know, they're dead or (back) in prison by now.
R
JustinJ
Member
What? I'm not sure what you mean by "such actions". What i said is passing one's driveway when there is a random car driving behind them is paranoid. Based on the the OP's description of what happened before he pulled in it sounded like a random car to me. I'm sorry if my description of your common practice offends you but that is how i see it. My evaluation is based on actual crime stastics and my belief that one should never let fear of vicimization control their life.
Call what behavior paranoid? At this point he had already turned in to his drive which i said would have been paranoid not to do. However, he did also say that if he passed his house he would have had to go a good ways to get back to it which sounds like his drive may have been the last to turn around in for a long way. Also, the guys in the other car may have suspected the road did not lead to another major one since the car in front of them turned. Or, they may have mistaken his drive for an actual road. Or, they simply mistook him for somebody they already knew and didn't figure it out until they stopped. Sure, its also possible they were looking for somebody to rob but had that been their original intent i don't see anything that would have made them change their minds. An intended victim alone on a long isolated road seems about as good as it gets for a robber.
If a car was truly following me, as in multiple turns on roads with little traffic or riding my rear in an aggressive manner i wouldn't turn into my home either but that is not what was described.
Ragnar, i know i'm not the only one tiring of people constantly trying to inject their political views in a board that is supposed to be free of it so we can just call it even. And maybe try and follow your own sig line.
I can think of one reason why you might want to pull into your driveway, and that's if you're concerned that proceeding down that road is liable to put you in danger of being forced off the road and then fully 'intercepted.'
Can you know this ahead of time? 'Course not. It's a judgment call.
Also, by pulling into the driveway and not proceeding to the house (or checking the mail), ceetee did not reveal that it was his own house. For all the other guys know, he picked it at random.
Can you know this ahead of time? 'Course not. It's a judgment call.
Also, by pulling into the driveway and not proceeding to the house (or checking the mail), ceetee did not reveal that it was his own house. For all the other guys know, he picked it at random.
Again, one would not pass one's driveway unless there were some indication of something that was something not quite right. I would not refer to doing so as an indication of paranoia, however. Nor did the OP say that there was no such indication; he said he was in Condition Orange.
Was there anything that the OP did not notice that he should have noticed? Was there anything that he did notice that should have made him decide differently?
He said he was in "Condition Orange". Assuming that he is using Col. Cooper's color codes correctly, it would seem that not turning in would have been prudent.
That was before he turned into the driveway.
He had not yet had any reason to go into condition Red ( "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person").
Given any specific alert, I would rather drive for a few more minutes than take a chance on being boxed in by another car in a lonely place.
Rob, kidnap, accuse, settle a score, whatever....
It is not unlikely that when the OP stayed in the car, the persons who had pulled in behind him became concerned that he may have called for help and decided to abort their mission, or that he might well be ready for them to expose themselves to his gunfire, or both.
JustinJ
Member
He also said that people frequently drive that way on the road which indicates to me there was no such indication something was not quite right. Personally, i don't think in color codes but to me a normal event is not time to elevate one's concern status. Sure, when they pulled in behind, something obviously out of the ordinary, i can see going into a heightened state of alert. Danger is not at the forefront of my mind at all times but instead i believe in a common sense approach and rely on my reason and instincts. Nor do i believe in intuition or gut feelings as people tend to only remember those that precede bad events while forgetting the many before nonevents. Its well documented that the human mind has a strong tendency to find patterns that simply don't exist as well as distort memories. If you've ever went to call a family member or friend, the phone range and you thought something supernatural occurred your mind failed to realize that many times you've called them before without any odd occurence happening. Constantly looking for threats, continuous fear of crime or simply not doing what one wants to are things i will never do. IMO driving past one's house in the scenario described is being influenced by fear in a way i have no interest in. The psychology of fear of crime and victimization is something that has been studied and it has been found that factors far beyond realistic threat analysis play a large role but thats another topic. My opinion is the OP acted perfectly reasonable and others can disagree. As others have said raising the phone to his ear would have been a good idea.
I suspect that in the abscense of a credible threat the additional time spent driving after passing ones' home actually puts them at greater risk of injury than just pulling in the first time.
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