I think I realized something tonight

[joneb]

I was reloading some once fired and cleaned CCI blazer 9x19 that I had fired in a Sig 938. I noticed some of the brass was easy to resize and some was difficult to resize, and some was in between. I was trying out 5.4gr of True blue with a Extreme 135 gr plated HP. While seating the bullets I could feel various amounts of resistance this caused some variation in the COL from bullet nose deformation. I shot five of these loads over a chronogragh the ES was 23 and the SD was 9, the accuracy was not good.
I got to thinking about the case tension issue and clean about 200 range pic up Blazer cases. while resizing these I put them into three groups hard to size easy to size and in between, I put the easy to size in the recycle bucket. So with the same load as above I loaded some of the medium effort to size brass and shot five over the chronograph the ES was 3 and the SD was 1, the size of the group was cut in half.
I trim my revolver brass but I do not trim my 380 acp, 9x19 or 45 acp brass, I will however be paying more attention to the amount of case tension on the bullets.
I did find another target with the brass sorted by resizing resistance same COL and bullet and primer but with 5.3 gr of True Blue the ES was 6 and the SD was 3 from five shots.

 

[vaalpens]

Welcome to the "imperfect" human club.

Now you are one of "us" who make mistakes.

Thanks for reminding me.

My case handling for 357sig is different since I have to lube the cases before resizing. Thus the cases are resized before I sort by length. 9mm, 45acp and 40S&W are all handled the same way, sorted by length (only for test loads) before resizing. I think they can probably all benefit from sorting by length after resizing.

 

[vaalpens]

I was reloading some once fired and cleaned CCI blazer 9x19 that I had fired in a Sig 938. I noticed some of the brass was easy to resize and some was difficult to resize, and some was in between. I was trying out 5.4gr of True blue with a Extreme 135 gr plated HP. While seating the bullets I could feel various amounts of resistance this caused some variation in the COL from bullet nose deformation. I shot five of these loads over a chronogragh the ES was 23 and the SD was 9, the accuracy was not good.
I got to thinking about the case tension issue and clean about 200 range pic up Blazer cases. while resizing these I put them into three groups hard to size easy to size and in between, I put the easy to size in the recycle bucket. So with the same load as above I loaded some of the medium effort to size brass and shot five over the chronograph the ES was 3 and the SD was 1, the size of the group was cut in haft.
I trim my revolver brass but I do not trim my 380 acp, 9x19 or 45 acp brass, I will however be paying more attention to the amount of case tension on the bullets.

Some more excellent information. Thanks!

It seems I need to take all these bits of information I have received to improve accuracy, and put them to good use with my next test loads. It is to late for some 45acp loads I am working on, but maybe I should work up and test a few 9mm loads.

 

[jmorris]

Jmorris: You remember what brands of bullets hit those targets? Just curious.

BTW, I've never seen a Starrett adjustable square like that before. Super cool antique! Still useful too.

Berrys on the top target Winchester JHP’s on the bottom one.

Antique, I’m not that old and they still make them here in the USA.

https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/434-12-16R

If a significant drop in quality isn’t bothersome as long as it comes with a significant drop in price, this one might do the job. It won’t ever rust either.

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-combination-square-set-63688.html

 

[Charlie98]

Thanks for the excellent information. So far I have tested loads with power Pistol, BE86, HP38, W244 and Sport Pistol with the 124gr FP match winner bullets. The COL I am using is 1.065".

Just remember, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

When I did my last batch of 9mm testing... I was using all the new powders... BE-86, SportPistol, W244. My control group powders were Unique and TiteGroup. Unique beat all of them in the accuracy department. I don't like TiteGroup, but it works really well in 9mm... and that's where I'm burning it up until it's gone, gone, gone... and I have an established load for it that works well enough, hence the control group. Anyway, you mentioned you got good results with Unique in the .357SIG... maybe give it a try.

As a matter of comparison, I was using the RMR PRN 124grn bullet. I did have a caveat in my testing... the loads had to perform well in a short-barreled pistol, you may or may not have that problem. Powder choice got a little tricky when I really got down to the nuts n bolts.

 

[vaalpens]

Why not trim all of the cases to your shortest length and have all exactly the same lenght cases. Then go from there.

Since I am obviously not the best person to answer your question, I'll let LiveLife's response to another post also answer your question.

As 243winxb pointed out, for straight walled semi-auto calibers that headspace on case mouth, you want the resized case length to be long as possible as repeated reloading will shorten resized case length over time.

While same resized case length will produce more consistent amount of taper crimp, I believe there are many other reloading variables that will readily overshadow taper crimp variable.

Instead of trimming cases, sorting by resized case length of same headstamp would be better, which is what the OP is doing.

 

[vaalpens]

This may be why Atlanta Arms Elite 115 gr FMJ Match AMU which used to be loaded shorter at 1.130" OAL is now loaded even shorter at 1.105" OAL - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

There has to be a reason why they use 115gr bullets for match ammunition. Is it the velocity at 50 yards? The accuracy test requirements gives us a good idea what it takes to prove ammo accuracy:
Accuracy test requirement: 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches.

 

[jmorris]

There has to be a reason why they use 115gr bullets for match ammunition.

What’s the match and what’s the rules? In the games I play, I have won more matches with 147’s than anything else.

Accuracy test requirement: 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches.

Out of what, shot in what fashion?

I have a benchrest rifle that will shoot single hole groups all day, off a bench. Try and shoot it off hand at half the distance and one would be lucky to get 50 rounds in 1.5 inches.

How one aims is going to be a huge factor as well if you are looking for small groups at distance.

If you average 1.5” at 50 yards for 5 10 shot groups off hand, with irons, you would be a nothing but X shooter for bullseye and still have a couple tenths of error on your side.

You don’t have much a chance with some sights.



And other aiming methods can give you substantial advantages, if nothing else than load development as far as reproducing the same POA.

 

[JJFitch]

Lots of good info in the above posts.

You should have been doing these tests 35-40 years ago, before these forums and SAAMI spec'd ammo and barrels and especially suitable powders for heavier bullets!

Bullet to barrel fit and bullet tension are important to 9mm accuracy. Case length consistency +/- a few thou. not so much!

Smiles,

 

[fxvr5]

Accuracy test requirement: 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches.

As jmorris notes, what are the shooting them from?

The problem with their method is that some of those 10-shot groups might be a little big and give a false impression of how well the ammo shoots. Some of those groups could easily exceed 2" or more, and just one or two random small ones would bring the average down.

A better question is what is the spread of all 50 rounds. It would be better to shoot all 50 rounds into one group. Then you can see the real potential of the ammo. If it puts all 50 rounds in 1.5" or less at 50 yards, that's good ammo.

 

[LiveLife]

may be why Atlanta Arms Elite 115 gr FMJ Match AMU which used to be loaded shorter at 1.130" OAL is now loaded even shorter at 1.105" OAL

There has to be a reason why they use 115gr bullets for match ammunition.

What’s the match and what’s the rules?

Out of what, shot in what fashion?

Looks like Atlanta Arms use 4" test barrel to produce match ammunition rated for 1.25" to 1.5" groups at 50 yards depending on ammunition type

Test Fired through a 4 inch test barrel

https://atlantaarms.com/handgun/9mm/elite-9mm-ammo/

"Atlanta Arms ... delivering the highest quality ammunition on the market ... premier source for both remanufactured and match ammunition ... match line of ammunition continues to be the standard for the Army Marksmanship Unit and other professional shooting teams."

Companies and Organizations Choosing Atlanta Arms:

• United States Army Marksmanship Unit
• U.S. Marine Corps Shooting Team
• U.S. Coast Guard Team
• ITI
• H&K
• Para
• Glock Shooting Team
• Sig Arms
• STI
• Safariland
• Babes with Bullets Ladies Shooting Camps
• HerHandgun (of Mesa, AZ)
• E-World Shooting Team

Pro Shooters Choosing Atlanta Arms:

• Rob Leatham
• KC Eusebio
• Max Michel
• Jessie Duff
  
• Todd Jarrett
• Phil Strader
• Jason Koon
• Nils Jonasson
  
• Philip Hemphill
• Michael Hollar
• Tiffany Piper
  
• Brian Zins
• Kippi Leatham
• Trevor Baucom
• Matt Sirmans

Elite 9mm 100 GR FMJ Steel Challenge - This Elite 100 gr FMJ Steel Challenge ammunition is designed and manufactured for a specific purpose/objective. This round is developed by some of the best shooters in the game to give you the ultimate advantage in your next match. ** Steel Challenge ammunition is a reduced recoil load. Pressures remain sufficient to produce standard operation G17 testing, but MAY require alternative recoil springs in larger/heavier firearms.

• Bullet: 100 gr FMJ
• Velocity: 1090 FPS ±
• USE/SPORT: Steel Challenge Competition

Elite 9mm 115 GR FMJ Match AMU - This ammunition is designed for extreme accuracy at 50 yards. This ammo is used by the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Service Pistol team for service pistol matches. Accuracy test requirement: 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches.

• Bullet: 115 gr FMJ
• Velocity: 1150 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.105” ± .005
• USE/SPORT: Steel Challenge, USPSA, IPSC

Elite 9mm 115 GR FMJ Steel Challenge - This Elite 9mm 115 gr FMJ Steel Challenge ammunition is designed and manufactured for a specific purpose/objective. This load was developed specifically for Steel Challenge competition. This is by far softest and most accurate round for competition steel shooting and has been proven to be a championship winning round.

• Bullet: 115 gr FMJ
• Velocity: 1070 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.120” ± .005
• USE/SPORT: Steel Challenge Competition

Elite 9mm 115 GR JHP Match - This is the PPC match ammo used by the Homeland Security pistol teams, the Border Patrol Teams, and some of the best Police teams. Using a high quality match bullet, this is designed for extreme accuracy. Accuracy test requirement: 5 ten-shot groups at 50 yards, with an average group size not to exceed 1.25 inches.

• Bullet: 115 gr JHP
• Velocity: 1100 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.075”
• USE/SPORT: PPC Matches, Bianchi Cup, Steel Challenge, IDPC

Elite 9mm 115 GR XTP - This is the PPC match ammunition used by the Homeland Security pistol teams, the Border Patrol teams, and some of the best Police teams. This is also a great Bianchi Cup and Steel Challenge round averaging 1100 FPS±. Using a high quality match bullet, this is designed for extreme accuracy.

• Bullet: 115 gr XTP
• Velocity: 1075 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.075” ± .005
• Power Factor: 132,500
• USE/SPORT: IDPA, Steel Challenge, PPC Matches, Bianchi Cup

Elite 9mm 124 GR JHP - We have created the ultimate 9mm 124 JHP for almost every occasion. Capable of producing 10 shot groups at 50 yards of 1.5 inches or less, you can rest assured you not only have the function and feel your looking for; you also have the accuracy. Works well with most barrel twists. (Test Fired through a 4 inch test barrel and Glock 17)

• Bullet: 124 gr JHP
• Velocity: 1055 FPS ±
• Power Factor: 130

Elite 9mm 147 GR JHP - This 9mm 147 gr JHP round is the staple for a heavy grain 9mm competition round. This round has been on top of the action pistol shooting competition circuit and continues to dominate in all facets of shooting disciplines.

• Bullet: 147 gr JHP
• Velocity: 900 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.100”
• USE/SPORT: IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, PPC

Elite 9mm Major 147 GR JHP - The 147 gr JHP bullet allows the round to reduce overall pressure while maintaining the major power factor. This projectile has been the softest shooting major competition round we have ever made. **Warning: This ammunition EXCEEDS SAMMI Specification and should only be used through a competition race gun.

• Bullet: 147 gr JHP
• Velocity: 1170 FPS ±
• OAL: 1.165” ± .005

 

[lordpaxman]

Interesting read on the Atlanta Arms Ammo. The 147 minor “dominates” yet the 115s are what they publish accuracy (actually precision) data for. There’s a world of difference between precision pistol shooting and run-and-gun competition. While I’d like my match ammo to be as precise as possible, I’m not sure how much of a difference it would make when I’m on the clock. Put another way, how would varied precision ammo affect my USPSA outcome? I’m pretty happy if I don’t DQ and don’t come in last.
Here’s my match ammo. See, it says so on the container. That’s the safety label so I know it hasn’t been opened, bet you don’t see that on the Atlanta Arms box...

 

[jmorris]

Looks like Atlanta Arms use 4" test barrel to produce match ammunition rated for 1.25" to 1.5" groups at 50 yards depending on ammunition type

A test barrel in a special fixture is a bit different than even a pistol in a machine rest. The firearm, if one is used at all, also makes a difference.

The op didn’t mention what 45 or 9mm pistols he couldn’t get good accuracy out of but found it easy out of his 40&357 sig ones. Not all pistols are the same in terms of accuracy.

I own some that won’t shoot 10 rounds into 1.5” at 50 yards ever, no matter what ammunition you put in them and others that can do that without a machine, at twice the distance.



but yeah even iron sighted semiautos can shoot tiny groups when fired by a machine (where the type of sight doesn’t matter). These are the 50 yard test targets from one of my SV’s.

 

[jmorris]

The 147 minor “dominates” yet the 115s are what they publish accuracy (actually precision) data for. There’s a world of difference between precision pistol shooting and run-and-gun competition.

You can say that again. That berrys load I posted earlier (the one that was awful at 100 yards). Is the one I have won the most matches with, not just club matches but a number of division champion and a few high overall.

If the majority of pistols, shooters and loads can’t shoot a 1.5 inch group at 50 yards, it would be silly to have targets that small. When you are shooting hundreds of rounds at targets where the ideal area for the hit to fall into is 6” or larger and the ranges are generally 15 yards or closer and time is a consideration, what matters most isn’t pin point accuracy.

I could say the same thing about 3 gun. For most stages, sometime every one in a match, 55 grain FMJ is more than adequate. Every now and then it might be worth it to use a magazine loaded with “good stuff” though.

 

[vaalpens]

What’s the match and what’s the rules? In the games I play, I have won more matches with 147’s than anything else.



Out of what, shot in what fashion?

I have a benchrest rifle that will shoot single hole groups all day, off a bench. Try and shoot it off hand at half the distance and one would be lucky to get 50 rounds in 1.5 inches.

How one aims is going to be a huge factor as well if you are looking for small groups at distance.

If you average 1.5” at 50 yards for 5 10 shot groups off hand, with irons, you would be a nothing but X shooter for bullseye and still have a couple tenths of error on your side.

You don’t have much a chance with some sights.

And other aiming methods can give you substantial advantages, if nothing else than load development as far as reproducing the same POA.

Thanks for the response. Nice shooting range you have.

Edited: Removed my assumptions about how testing is being done after I read LiveLife's post regarding how Atlanta Arms is testing their ammo.

 

[vaalpens]

A test barrel in a special fixture is a bit different than even a pistol in a machine rest. The firearm, if one is used at all, also makes a difference.

The op didn’t mention what 45 or 9mm pistols he couldn’t get good accuracy out of but found it easy out of his 40&357 sig ones. Not all pistols are the same in terms of accuracy.

I own some that won’t shoot 10 rounds into 1.5” at 50 yards ever, no matter what ammunition you put in them and others that can do that without a machine, at twice the distance.

but yeah even iron sighted semiautos can shoot tiny groups when fired by a machine (where the type of sight doesn’t matter). These are the 50 yard test targets from one of my SV’s.

You are correct. The pistol could make a difference.

I am not aiming for bullseye accuracy, but just the best I can do with my testing routine. The guns I tested with:
P229 357sig
P229 40S&W
P220 45ACP
SP2022 9mm

The SIG SP2022 has produced very good groupings, so it is capable. I am not ready yet to blame it on the gun.

In 45ACP I have seen very good groupings using 200gr bullets. It is just with 230FMJ bullets I have some difficulty finding that very accurate load.

 

[LiveLife]

Edited: Removed my assumptions about how testing is being done after I read LiveLife's post regarding how Atlanta Arms is testing their ammo.

Here's 9mm 1911 being tested with Atlanta Arms ammunition at 50 yards mounted to Ransom Rest on concrete base to produce sub 1" tall and sub 0.5 wide group.

I'd say Atlanta Arms testing has to be pretty good to produce such accurate ammunition.

 

[fxvr5]

For my standard testing I do 5 shots at 15 yards. My expectation for a very good grouping load with my current setup is to have a few tested loads in the .5" or below grouping. I will test the same load on later dates to confirm that the good grouping was not a fluke.

Another question about your method. When you're doing this are you just loading 5 rounds with each load and shooting only those rounds for your one 5-shot group, or are you loaded enough ammo with one load for several 5-shot groups and only reporting the smallest of those groups? Thanks.

 

[jmorris]

Here's 9mm 1911 being tested with Atlanta Arms ammunition at 50 yards mounted to Ransom Rest on concrete base to produce sub 1" tall and sub 0.5 wide group.

I'd say Atlanta Arms testing has to be pretty good to produce such accurate ammunition.

I’d say it’s obviously not bad ammunition but we don’t have anything else to compare it to.

I am sure the over $4000 in pistol and machine rest have a lot to do with group size, would need data collected with other brands of ammunition to conclude the accuracy was due to the ammunition alone.

 

[LiveLife]

I am sure the over $4000 in pistol and machine rest have a lot to do with group size, would need data collected with other brands of ammunition to conclude the accuracy was due to the ammunition alone.

They have other videos of accuracy testing at 50 yards using different ammunition and the sub 1" group video showed was smaller than groups tested with other ammunition which averaged larger.

So the smaller group produced was very likely due to the ammunition as the shooter in the video stated who usually do the accuracy testing in their videos.

And Atlanta Arms have 1.25" at 50 yards certified match ammo along with 1.5" certified ammo so my guess is the 1.25" match ammo is more accurate.

 

[Toprudder]

I have a 9mm that will put 10 rounds into 1.1" @ 50 yards routinely. 115 FMJ from RMR.

It is a 16" AR with a scope, though.

 

[fxvr5]

They have other videos of accuracy testing at 50 yards using different ammunition and the sub 1" group video showed was smaller than groups tested with other ammunition which averaged larger.

So the smaller group produced was very likely due to the ammunition as the shooter in the video stated who usually do the accuracy testing in their videos.

And Atlanta Arms have 1.25" at 50 yards certified match ammo along with 1.5" certified ammo so my guess is the 1.25" match ammo is more accurate.

I found this article on the internet that tests some 9mm 'match' ammo. The Atlanta Arms ammo did well in the gun used, but curiously enough some generic off the shelf ammo posted a smaller average group size.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/how-accurate-is-9mm-luger-match-ammo/99175

 

[cardinalorange]

Your experience is not isolated and shared by many, including me.

Difficulty in developing accurate 9mm loads could be from the reasons that 9mm being smaller internal case volume caliber with shorter bullet base producing less neck tension can be more susceptible to greater swings in chamber pressures from small changes in bullet seating depth variance or bullet setback after being fed from the magazine.

For these reasons, I now use shorter OAL to improve neck tension and headstamp brass that won't produce bullet setback (Or least amount) for my accuracy testing.

This may be why Atlanta Arms Elite 115 gr FMJ Match AMU which used to be loaded shorter at 1.130" OAL is now loaded even shorter at 1.105" OAL - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html


Have you tried BE-86 or WSF?

And if you are not pushing high to near max load data, you will likely obtain greater accuracy from faster burning than W231/HP-38/W244/Sport Pistol powders.

What OAL do you use now?

 

[LiveLife]

The Atlanta Arms ammo did well in the gun used, but curiously enough some generic off the shelf ammo posted a smaller average group size.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/how-accurate-is-9mm-luger-match-ammo/99175

That is interesting.

Goes to show, holes on target speak volumes.

 

[LiveLife]

What OAL do you use now?

I used to use longer 1.150"-1.160" and down to 1.135"-1.140" but after doing comparison test and finding shorter 1.135" OAL produced smaller groups, I started loading shorter.

My 9mm reference loads with different FMJ/RN bullets are typically loaded to 1.130"-1.135", which represent finished OAL variance depending on bullet used.

With 115 gr FMJ/RN, I have gone short as 1.110"-1.115" with improvement in accuracy depending on powder/charge used.

Interestingly, Atlanta Arms used to load their Elite 115 gr FMJ AMU to 1.130" but now show decreased OAL to 1.100". And I am seeing 124 gr FMJ loaded shorter from 1.135" now down to 1.120" so I may do some testing and may load 124 gr FMJ/RN shorter.